IMR 4227 and the 357 Max

[TCLouis]

I find all kinds of loading reference material for the H4227 in the Max, but NOT the IMR variety, there does not seem to be a consistent relation between the H and IMR variety of 4227s. Planned use is 50 yard or so deer slayer.

Plan to use it mainly with the 180 RNFP GC Boolit, but may lower myself to XTP or Remington 180 HP pistola bullet.

How about with the big ol 358-220 GC Boolit we GBed a while back?

[lathesmith]

TC, I have used IMR 4227 in an H&R 357 max carbine, and it was one of my more accurate loads. I don't have the exact charge at hand, it wasn't a max charge, and I used it with a Lee 158 gr GC SWC. It ought to work great with the 180 gr slug too, I hope someone gets to try it on game.
lathesmith

[44man]

You can use the same load data for both IMR and H 4227. I used both in my Ruger for silhouette. I used a 200 gr bullet at the time.
The caliber loves those powders.

[dale2242]

Found a load in a couple of silhouette loading manuals for IMR4227. ---dale
180 gr 16-20gr IMR4227

[tommyn]

4227 is a awesome powder for the max. I use it in both my Ruger and contender max. I'm shooting 180 gr cast in the Ruger with IMR 4227 and Remington 180 hp over H-4227 in my contender. As soon as I run out of H-4227 I will drop the charge some in the contender and work up with the IMR4227.

[missionary5155]

I have used them both in my Dan 375 supermag and could see no difference.

[Kraschenbirn]

17.5 gr IMR4227 behind a hard-cast 170 gr CB always worked well for me in a 10" Contender. Used that load for IHMSA "Standing" and never lost a ram (that I hit).

Bill

[leftiye]

Read Glen's (Fryxell) articles at the LASC site on the 357 max. There a member here called (of all thangs) .357Maximum whose favorite powder is VV n-120, I believe. He goes for high velcity, and hunts with his too. Read some of his threads/posts, or maybe contact him. I use Fryxell's 4227 data (19 grs ?) in my .357 max with a 200 gr. MM mold, but I haven't really wrung it out yet.

[357maximum]

Both 4227's seem close enough to the same to me. I however found that Vhit N-120 to be far superior IF IF IF IF you are trying to push the envelope and wring every accurate FPS out of a 180-200 grain gas checked boolit you can get.

My personal hunting load for this year is the rcbs 35-200 over 23.5grains of n-120*****( do not use this load in a contender and slowly sneak up on this load in any other iron like a stock max encore or such)****....this is in a full length bull barrelled 15inch custom tube made by Match Grade Machine and this load is both accurate and safe in my gun......yours may very considerably**. I ran the same load under a modified 358315 HP last year and was extremely tickled with the performance on whitetails (40 and 230 yards) both one shot kills.

IMHO vhit N-120 is a superior powder in the max.....for MY OWN intended purposes anyway.


A 200 grain homecast pill at 2200-2300 fps just seems to kill thing quite dead.



I also have the 360-220 boolit in an off campus custom.....2* grains N-120 under this boolit sure smack the crap out of my 300 yard gongs, as well as my 440 yarder...when I do my part.....

[35remington]

"A 200 grain homecast pill at 2200-2300 fps just seems to kill thing quite dead."

No kidding "don't shoot that load in a Contender!"

That much speed out of the Maximum case must put pressures way, way up there.

Since the ordinary Contender can take some fairly high pressures from the Maximum case, I'd guess the pressure would be quite high to get that velocity quoted.

Sounds a bit hot for any gun to me, so the warning seems well justified. Especially in only a fifteen inch barrel. Most Maximum loads run high as to pressure, and that velocity is way, way higher than I've seen listed for any Maximum in that approximate barrel length with that weight (200 grain) bullet. Even considering it's a lead bullet.

I don't go that high in velocity in the .35 Remington case even when the gloves are off and I'm exceeding its low standard pressures in a stronger frame. A .35 Remington case has far greater capacity than the maximum, and I'm loading hotter for a pistol barrel as well as running higher pressures. And I don't go 2300 in a fifteen inch barrel, prudently, even with a much bigger capacity case run up to a higher pressure limit.

That sounds overboard in the little Maximum case for anybody but you. I sure wouldn't recommend it, and yeah, I've experience with the Maximum as well in the Contender on a G2 frame.

I'm not convinced that Hodgdon is really using "IMR" 4227. Given that the old H4227 was made in Australia, and the "new" IMR 4227 is made in Australia, what I believe Hodgdon did was take the old H4227, add a graphite coating, and called it "IMR 4227."

Comparison under a magnifying glass would seem to confirm this.

It's the classic "bait and switch" by Hodgdon.

[357maximum]

Actually I backed off from the hot loads....IE the ones that make your primer pocket a one time use affair. This barrel is a FAAAST barrel....I routinely get about 200-400 fps more than any book load when all else is equal..???dunno. All my cast loads in this particular tube seem to like going fast whicj works out well for my intended purpose...IE a southern michigan legal whitetail sniping "HAND HELD RIFLE" calling this unit a pistol is a stretch to say the least. BaBore will not let me call it a pistol...he is not wrong.


I assure you this load is fine and not a brass trasher in my max...but the warning is there because I would not blindly shoot it in another identical iron...no friggin way. The load development in my MAX max loads took almost 4 years, and I have no issues with what I am doing....I knew I would raise an eyebrow with the data that is why I normally list my load like 2* grains of brand x powder. I will admit that I only get about 12 reloads in my brass with these loads...so far. I have 3k in brass so I should be good for a bit.

I had the load checked at 48,000 to 50,000psi with a 180 gr rem bulk hp and remington 200 sp respectively...I assume the cast 200 are about the same.....I have no reason to be scared.....she has ate about 1200 rounds so far and all I have done is move the throat forward a bit. This action is used for 308/06/whelen etc pressures....the limiting factor is not the pressure the barrel/action will take....it is how much the brass will take...and I have been real close to that limit....this load is not that load.

Also there is no bolt thrust compared to say a 35 rem sized case......

[35remington]

"I had the load checked at 48,000 to 50,000psi......"

Sometimes what's given as "accurate" psi is rather relative. Depends upon who's doing the testing, and labs disagree on the very same loads.

I very sincerely doubt you're running that low as to pressure to get that velocity in a shorty barrel with the little maximum case. Especially running four hundred feet per second over the highest allowed for the maximum, when allowable pressures are already in the 40,000 psi range for loads that are not only slower, but a lot slower. As in around 1850-1900 for that barrel length, at most.

Given that the regular Contender is allowed fairly high pressure with the maximum, I'm just making sure to post a dissention as well should other guys want to try your load. I have no doubt I've run maximum pressures more past 50,000, and around mild .223 level without case sticking problems, and I still can't come close to the velocities you're getting with 200's.

Equalling or outrunning my jacked up .35 Remington with the small maximum case set my warning bells off, as it should. My Contender frame can take the increased case thrust over the standard Contender frame, and you're past even what I'm doing with a much smaller case. And I ain't running the .35 at SAAMI 33,500 psi myself either. Shooting a 15 inch 2300 fps/200 load out of the larger .35 Remington case would be likely well past 42,000 psi, considering that SAAMI loads of 33,500 psi generate about 2110 fps - in a 20 inch barrel. Which makes your claim of 2300 fps in a fifteen inch barrel with only 48,000 psi in the much smaller maximum case seem rather unlikely.

I'd guess more like 60,000 plus plus. Cases can last awhile at this level in a well supported action, but the cartridge you're shooting is a Maximum in name only. What you've got is more of a +P+ Maximum that would eat a lot of guns.

This is how my thinking goes, thus my additional comments on your load.

Nothing further was intended.

If you're happy, more power to ya. Just posting to comment that load would lock up a standard Contender solid, and you'd probably have to beat on it with a hammer to get it open.

[Johnch]

I find all kinds of loading reference material for the H4227 in the Max, but NOT the IMR variety, there does not seem to be a consistent relation between the H and IMR variety of 4227s. Planned use is 50 yard or so deer slayer.I use the start load for H and work up

I have no probelm holding the crosshairs about 1" higher and smacking a deer at 100 yds

Plan to use it mainly with the 180 RNFP GC Boolit, but may lower myself to XTP or Remington 180 HP pistola bullet.
ERR in a contender
You can push the Hornady 180 gr XTP past its design limits
A few years back I shot a big buck in the chest at 20 yds using the XTP in the MAx
Bullet exploded just after passing into the chest cavity
No piece bigger than 20 gr was recovered
Looked like a bomb went off in it's chest
Easy blood trail to follow , but a SOB getting all the lead chips out of the meat
Never tryed the 180 gr Rem bullet

How about with the big ol 358-220 GC Boolit we GBed a while back?

In my 14" contender barrel it shoots sub 2" groups at 100 yds
I cast a WW base and the nose out of pure lead , they come out 216 gr before GC and lube
In my water logged sawdust tests ( Shot 3 in my tests )
The bullet expanded to almost .8" and weighted 170 to 180 gr depending on the bullet
As I load to a longer length than normal , I had to work up my loads
But I am getting 1800+ FPS
But I have close to 35 Rem case capasity when I crimp to the drive band just above the GC



John

[35remington]

"But I have close to 35 Rem case capasity when I crimp to the drive band just above the GC."

Well, no, not quite, but then you Max boys always did like to load hot.

It is a good cartridge. And due to its small size often overloaded considering the standard Contender frames out there.

I've pushed it a bit myself, but I'm under no illusions that what I was doing had much relation to "standard" pressures.

The helpful thing is the small head size lets you get away with quite a lot.

[357maximum]

Only a true moron would shoot this load in a contender of any flavor.


NOW YOU KNOW WHY IN ALMOST 3 YEARS I HAVE NEVER EVER MADE THE POST I MADE ABOVE>>>


NOT DISAGREEING WITH YA 35. It is what it is... a very warm load according to the industry,,,,thus the warning......I will not even mention how hot I have been......area that I COULD NOT GET with rifle powders in a 22inch 35 remmy. Now if a brave soul wanted to dump enough N-120 into a 15inch 35 remmy he would walk all over my speeds....maybe when I finally burn enough ball powder in this critter to wash the throat out of this tube I will re-chamber to 35 rem and see.