Cast 9MM keyholing

[Burnt Fingers]

I knew before I opened this post what 9mm bullet would be discussed.

That particular bullet is known for keyholing.

Try a different mold.

[fredj338]

It is either over crimping, reducing the actual dia, or it is the TL design. I bet over crimping. Load up a bullet, pull it & measure it. If they are undersized, they will keyhole. All I shoot is cast out of all my 9mm, from Glock OEM bbls to 1911 match. I size 0.356" or 0.357" depending on which guns, but mostly 0.356" works fine with moderately hard alloy.

[JBinMN]

ivanfern,

I keep reading about folks thinking it is the design of the Lee 124gr. 2R TL.

Apparently some folks do not have the patience it takes to investigate issues & solve them on their own...
I am not like that. I prefer to solve the issues when I can, and off times I learn from doing it, so I have a bit of a different perspective, I reckon. I am not much for "quitting" or throwing things away because of what might be my own mistakes/errors because I missed something & not be so quick to blame something else for not working the way I expected...

Regardless, I do not have any problems using it with my SR9 after doing some of things mentioned about making sure the boolit diameter is not getting swaged down either by under expanding the case before seating, over crimping, boolit alloy is in the correct range for the velocity & the fit to the BBl is done properly.

And that is all with 45/45/10 tumble lube & not PC.

If one takes the time to check each of those things, regardless of lube/PC, one can trace the issue(s) & solve them.

Next, if those other checks show no change in boolit diameter, then a possibility is that the boolit is not being pushed fast enough, the boolit is getting put off balance as it leaves the muzzle due to a issue with the crown, or even gas cutting of the alloy so that one place in the boolit is getting cut while another is not & undoing the balance of the boolit as it leaves the muzzle. One more possibly thing, but not usually a likely factor could be unseen voids inside the boolit itself, but not so likely as some of the others mentioned, due to it being pistol & at what seems to be relatively short distances.

It is going to be a matter of doing some investigation & if you are accurate in measuring & careful how you do check things, you can simply eliminate possibilities.

If you take the time to do these things yourself until you are satisfied you have eliminated all of the things mentioned, then it is time to consider perhaps having someone do some work to the chamber/leade, etc. or "then" consider that the mold & its' boolits are the issue.

I find it a bit disappointing that so many suggest you scrap the mold, when you can do a bit of checking before that option.

But, do as ya like...

I will offer that if you decide you want to get rid of the mold, give me a PM & perhaps I will take it off your hands for a reasonably negotiated price.


G'Luck in whatever you decide to do. Fix things, & learn by the doing of it while making it work for you, or just give up & get rid of the mold... Your choice.


P.S. - Maybe next time, I will offer my opinion thru PM to folks, instead of thru the open forum, so I don't get the crapola & complaining from other members about not being detailed enough, or offering too much detail, like has happened before... Now I know why some do offer suggestions thru PM rather than open forum. It defeats the learning for others, but it eliminates most of the crapola & complaining.

[tazman]

If a particular boolit design needs to have everything perfect all the time in order to work properly, why not go to a different design that has proven to work in many different guns without all the hassle and experimenting?
Some folks want results and don't enjoy the troubleshooting. That is why so many just load with jacketed or plated.

[toallmy]

There is a very informative wright up on loading cast boolits for the 9mm that may be helpful .
It is in the Forum - Classics & Stickies / the sticky is titled ( Setting up for boolits in a new 9mm ) .

[JBinMN]

There is a very informative wright up on loading cast boolits for the 9mm that may be helpful .
It is in the Forum - Classics & Stickies / the sticky is titled ( Setting up for boolits in a new 9mm ) .

Great suggestion!


Here is the direct link to that Sticky, for ease of getting there for anyone that is interested:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...s-in-a-new-9mm

[David2011]

Over crimping has already been discussed; here’s a little more. Your reloading manuals will show a mouth/neck O.D. which should be 0.380”. With commercial brass that should be the target crimp size. Over crimping not only reduces the boolit diameter, it can also affect the ability of the cartridge to headspace on the mouth. I measure the OD just a hair behind the mouth so I’m not measuring a burr on the mouth.

[mdi]

Personally I don't believe there are many "intrinsically inaccurate bullets prone to tumbling". While I don't have that exact same mold, I believe that if one uses a decent alloy (not "hard" cast), fits the bullet to the gun and uses a good lube, the bullets will shoot quite well. I only reload for 3, 9mm pistols and the old saw comes into play; "each gun has it's own personality". I settled on another Lee mold for my 9mms, the 125 gr RNFP that shoots great in my Ruger LC9, and good in my FMK, but so-so in my Tokerev (also works in my 38 Specials). I don't have that same mold but IIRC I have a very similar mold ,a TL 356-124, that only took finding a good diameter to shoot accurately in my Ruger (didn't try it in my FMK). My tumble lube bullets get 45-45-10, and often pan lubed with C-Red or Speed Green. Personally I thing the main problem many molds/bullets is the guy holding the handles...

Jes an old guy's .02...

[Rich/WIS]

I used that bullet unsized and tumble lubed in my CZ 75 and had keyholing issues. Switched to their TC shape with normal lube groove and sized and lubed at .358 in a Lyman 450 and problem went away. Have read that Glock rifling and cast are not a good combination, but nor sure of the truth of that assertion. Only Glock I loaded for had an aftermarket barrel and it shot the TC bullet fine.

[mto7464]

just went out shooting the same boolit. (PC'ed sized .3575) Several keyholed. I noticed this before but had this loaded up already so I have to use them up. I cast some more and PC'ed them and loaded as they were and tested them for fit in my case guage. THey Shoot much better. I also ordered a new expander from lathesmith that should take care of the case swaging them down.

[ivanfern]

So I loaded some rounds using 41 and 42 grains of powder, light crimp and still getting keyholes, almost all of them. I will bump down the charge to 3.6 and see if that makes a difference. I did not size down these bullies after I coated them so I am thinking maybe I can do a second powder coat to get them a bit thickets.

[flyingmonkey35]

Post deleted

[Buck Butcher]

Pull a bullet.

[mto7464]

Pull a bullet.

that is what I did and it was swagged badly. I bet that is whats happening here.

[gwpercle]

So I loaded some rounds using 41 and 42 grains of powder, light crimp and still getting keyholes, almost all of them. I will bump down the charge to 3.6 and see if that makes a difference. I did not size down these bullies after I coated them so I am thinking maybe I can do a second powder coat to get them a bit thickets.

Cast boolits in 9mm Luger is a nightmare on Elm Street , the boolit you have selected is hard to get to work right .
I've been down this road and even with 50 years experience almost gave up getting all the bugs out .
If you decide there must be an easier boolit to work with , here are the two that solved all my problems and made things work.
I lube with conventional Lithi-Bee lubricant not powder coated .

1.) Lee 2 cavity 356-120-TC proved that this design was better than the tumble lube design and the truncated cone fed just fine in all four 9mm's I have . I wanted to try a larger diameter boolit with a gas check

2.) To make it better a gas checked design would be just the ticket. Makes seating easier can shoot them 1000+fps with no leading. Purchased NOE 358-124-TC-GC sized to .357 or .358 (depending on pistols throat) and bingo.....problems were solved . Accurate , no keyholes and no leading .
The gas check protects the base during boolit seating.
Find a powder charge you and the pistol like and Success !!!

The NOE 358-124-TC-GC when sized .358 is a hum dinger in 38 special and 357 magnum loads...you can get some decent magnum loads with the gas check boolit and it is very accurate .

This is my hardway learned experiences , hope it helps you,
Gary

[BamaNapper]

I must be doing something wrong. I use the same mold, same powder and charge, and a ton of different types of brass. I cast whatever WW I can get my hands on, so I'm sure some batches end up softer than others. I probably even have the same sizing die. I use Hornady dies and I'm sure they've been adjusted a few times so the crimp would tend to vary somewhat, especially with all different headstamps. The only difference I'm seeing is the color of the PC (the wife is fond of the red ones). I have 3 9mm's (Ruger SR9, SIG P365, and the wife's P229), and have given hundreds to a friend (a Glock). Between the wife and I, we've probably loaded and shot close to 10,000 of them in the last 3 years. Wow, I just realized how much time I've spent with that 2-cavity mold in my hand. I shoot mostly paper targets and don't recall ever seeing a keyhole, and I never got a report of one out of the Glock. The bullets I have dug out of the berm showed good rifling, so I'm not thinking the .356 is too small, but I haven't dug one out from the 365 yet.

Now I have to say that my first mold was defective. The sprue plate was not completely square/flat and didn't seem to seal as well as it should to the mold block. The molds worked, but there was a definite flaw in that the back of the bullet was not measurably off-square with the sides, and there was a small flashing of lead around the base that would have cleaned up if I had sized them. New mold, problem fixed. It seems to me that if the base of the bullet wasn't square you'd be inducing the keyhole result as the bullet exits the barrel. I never shot that mold so I can't say what it would have done.

[JBinMN]

My offer to buy( 3x now I think) such a troublesome mold for a reasonable, but discounted price, due to its' troublesome nature, still stands.

[ivanfern]

Hi guys so tomorrow I will cast about 50 bullets, I will check the size without powder coat and then after powder coat. I may do a second powder coat to see if I can get the bullet to .358. I will load some light loads starting at 3.6 then to 3.8. Also will pull a bullet before to see if the brass is sizing down my bullet.

[tazman]

Hi guys so tomorrow I will cast about 50 bullets, I will check the size without powder coat and then after powder coat. I may do a second powder coat to see if I can get the bullet to .358. I will load some light loads starting at 3.6 then to 3.8. Also will pull a bullet before to see if the brass is sizing down my bullet.

During your seating process, if one or more of the cases seem to be hard to seat the boolits into, pull that one to check for sizing.
Not all of your cartridges are tumbling. perhaps just the ones with thicker case walls are causing the issues.

[ivanfern]

Hi guys thanks for the help! It has been driving me nuts because at 50 yards I'm getting a 50ft group haha, so I slugged my barrel and its at .355. The bullets with powder coat are at .357. However I am using a lee expanding die and it is only expanding the case mouth to .353. I pulled some loaded rounds and noticed that the bottom end of the bullet was squeezed down to almost .345. I did not crimp these rounds. The expander die is only expending the case mouth so the case is squeezing my bullets down a bit towards the rear of the bullet which leads me to believe that the bullets is not making full contact to the rifling. I believe that this is my problem and was looking into called LEE to see if they send me a .38 special expander since it expands deeper than the 9mm expander. I also took a look at a expander die set that lee sells because I also want to load cast .45 acp and .44 mag.