Is it necessary to put tea or corn meal filler in?

[Handshaker]

I was wondering why this is necessary when loading BP? All cartridge bullets have air space in between the powder and bullet, why would BP need filler for the air in between?
thanks

[scattershot]

Black powder is loaded slightly compressed, I think because it burns more efficiently that way.

[Handshaker]

Ah that makes sense, a couple loading videos i watched, the loader was concerned about making a small pipe bomb if there wasn't a filler inside, which made no sense to me, this does. To get the ball closer to the chamber.
thanks

[pietro]

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In over 50 years of hunting/shooting with front stuffers, I've NEVER used any kind of filler.

You'll likewise be GTG, as long as the projectile is seated firmly against the powder charge.

Leaving an airspace between the powder charge and the projectile is an invitation for a detonation to occur - which happens when the ignited charge's pressure wave impacts the projectile after it builds up a head of steam in the void & rebounds ILO simply pushing the projectile down the barrel.

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[bob208]

corn meal is for making bread. when loading bpc I use wads cut from notebook pads to fill the space.

[curator]

When shooting black powder, a low grade "explosive", air space between powder charge and bullet can cause a rapid pressure spike. Whereas with no air space and a lightly compressed powder charge, black powder acts more like a progressive burning propellant, not an explosive.

[waksupi]

Definitely no air space, unless you enjoy ringed (or worse!) chambers.

[TNsailorman]

Curator and waksupi just gave you good advice. Air space in a black powder rifle is a recipe for a ringed barrel. james

[Tasbay]

If you read the first post my take on it is he's talking about Cartridge loading. You don`t have an air space with a front stuffer.

[rfd]

I was wondering why this is necessary when loading BP? All cartridge bullets have air space in between the powder and bullet, why would BP need filler for the air in between?
thanks

your post makes no sense here in the muzzleloading forum. are you talking about bp loaded cartridges or bp loaded muzzleloaders, or just the general concept of leaving an air space between any kinda bp load and it's projectile? the answer to all of these is, no air space, not ever. the only need for a filler is for a reduced bp cartridge load.

[Handshaker]

"I was wondering why this is necessary when loading BP" What is BP?, its not British Petroleum, lol. I thought my quest was pretty clear.
Why can't you have airspace on BP(BLACK POWDER) Why is there air space on all cartridges?
Thanks all who responded, its clear to me now.

[rfd]

...Why is there air space on all cartridges? ....

there surely can, and usually will be air space in smokeless cartridges.

however, there should be no airspace within black powder cartridges OR in muzzleloader barrels. that can and will lead to destructive issues, as already mentioned in this thread. this is why i at least slightly compress bp in cartridge builds, and "bounce the rod" when loading patched balls in muzzleloaders over bp.

[OverMax]

(Haven't read the prior comments. Just my opinion _answering the Op's question.)
I don't think so in neither application Front loading or cartridge is advisable. As I recall Black powder cartridge cases are typically loaded up to the base of their projectile so to fill in any remaining air space. If by chance a B/p cartridge shooter knows differently {reduced target loads that require fill_ please elaborate.}

[bigted]

The US military ... when using the 45-70 round ... loaded light loads of 55 grains Black Powder ... but ... they used cork wads for fill to build a compressed load.

It is pretty common to use cream o wheat or cornmeal in percussion revolvers when target shooting for utmost accuracy ... this is used to make the load position tha projectile as close to the chamber mouth as can be loaded and still be able to turn the cylinder. This procedure makes the JUMP into the barrel's forcing cone and rifling immediate so as to begin its swaging into the rifling at the beginning of the ignition process making the projectile less apt to strip the rifling in the beginning of its journey down the barrel.

To more understand the difference between burning properties between black powder and smokeless ... take a teaspoon of each and ignite them on a board having made a small line with each. This will exhibit the huge difference between the ignition process of the two way different burn quality's of each.

After this simple experiment ... now imagine the " shock wave " produced with each powder in a small confined space. While smokeless "burn's" along that line of powder, the black powder violently explodes which causes a totally different shock wave hitting the base of the projectile.

Smokeless powder ( primarily ) burns slowly and gathers its power in a controlled expansion making more pressure as the projectile goes down the barrel and building power inside the expanding confined space till it eject's from the barrel having built much more gas and resultant pressure inside the barrel ( which leads to a metallurgy discussion on the different needs in steel ).

On the other hand ... black powder ... when ignited ... violently explodes , causing a horrible shock wave blasting the base of the projectile immediately instead of the gentle shove of smokeless at the beginning of ignition. This leads me to the compressed black powder in its confined space ... being more of a controlled ignition instead of an explosion when air is available to the ignition process. If the explosion is allowed ... think of the horrible impact of the pressure wave against the projectile base. When impacting the projectile in a air rich environment, allowing this violent explosion, this shock wave ... hitting the projectile ... bounces back into itself and produces an even greater pressure ... and pressure will find the path of least resistance ... in this case the weaker metal of black powder firearms ... and the metal will expand under this multiplying pressure wave bouncing against itself in an area that allows it.

On the other hand ... black powder under compression ... acts MORE like ... still not the same as ... but more like the slowed down ignition of smokeless powder does ... AND ... the black powder "burn" allows the projectile to begin its movement down the barrel as soon as the base of the charge begins to build pressure ... therefore building a larger area for the expanding gas's safely to go. This allows those gas pressures the path of least resistance in that the projectile moves immediately instead of providing a bounce area. As the projectile moves down the barrel ... the explosive black powder burns out pretty fast and needs way less barrel length to stop building pressure in. ( This leads to the discussion of why the longer barrel length of muzzleloaders ).

WHEWW!

[Wayne Smith]

That also is the reason why BP is better for those cartridges needing the boolit 'bumped up', i.e. a larger barrel than the chamber. That hard kick expands the boolit in the barrel better than the slower push of the smokeless.

[charlie b]

We really need an explosive expert to describe the details of how black powder behaves.

Suffice to say that igniting loose black powder in a confined space is bad as an explosion (not a detonation) is the result.

[john.k]

The Sharps paper cartridge proves the empty space threat is nonsense,as there must be a space in front of the Lawrence gas check bushing,around the paper cartridge............its also a fact that foil cartridges have considerable space all round the cartridge for ease of loading.....If a solid slug of powder moves a finite distance before striking the rear of a bullet,then there is some risk of a ring bulge,or a burst barrel if the powder slug has enough velocity........In fact many of the black powder shooters left a small space,carefully controlled ,to expand the bullet,when using a hard alloy.

[charlie b]

That's why I suggested an expert weigh in. The empty space thing is not nonsense, just that some extra space will not cause an explosion but a lot of empty space might. A few conditions have to be met to exceed the yield strength of a barrel. Three of those conditions are key, how much powder, what grain size (and is it coated) and how much free space.

BP has a very definite pressure burn rate curve. The pressure in a confined space is directly related to how the flame front proceeds through the black powder charge, which is also regulated by the surface area exposed to the flame front. Loose powder charges will not burn as consistently as compressed charges as the propagation of the flame front through the loose grains is not predictable. Small changes in the free space will make large changes in the burn rate.

Loose powder will have a larger flame front within the charge and the flame can propagate through the spaces between the grains easier. BP does not use the 'extra' air to burn as all the oxidizer it needs is in the grain. It also does not burn at a supersonic rate, hence it's classification as a low grade explosive. It will not detonate as a high grade explosive will.

Why do people say NO free space? Two reasons. First, unless you have a very good understanding of the conditions, predicting when a barrel will explode is difficult. Second, if you say SOME free space is good there will always be someone who gives it too much.

And, no, I am not an expert in all aspects of black powder. Just a bit of research in explosives and interior ballistics many years ago.

[dave951]

Yup, there's quite a bit of free space in a Sharps. No kabooms there. That said, I wouldn't want to intentionally put lots of free space in. Often for accuracy in a muzzleloader, the holy black responds best to a bit of compression, meaning no air space.

As a muzzleloading instructor, I tell all my students to eliminate the air space. At their level of knowledge with regards to bp, it's best not to muddy the waters. After they've been shooting for a while and are looking for that last degree of accuracy, then we'll talk.

[Handshaker]

Thanks everyone. I just went out back and fired my SS ruger old army for the first time. I loaded 40gr of black mz into 45 colt cases for the conversion cylinder. I was pleasantly surprised with the thump of the BP in this revolver. Its super accurate and easy to hit a 12" gong at 100y.