350 Legend and Cast Boolits

[Oldfeller]

Aha! You are correct, the top two black ones are Anthony Holub's shoulder based neck trimmers, using a custom installed by me sharp four flute HHS end mill to do the cutting and being driven by a 3/8" variable speed drill they will slay huge sets of .223 and .308 Nato brass in a rapid fashion.

The only requirement for maximum trimming accuracy is to operate Holub's trimmer only on freshly full length sized cases that have the shoulder accurately relocated to the correct dimension.

Note please: the .308 trimmer can do 6.5x55, .270, 7x57, 30-06, 8mm, 35 Whelen, and any other member of that case/shoulder family just dandy. Holub's stuff indexes off the neck taper as a pure thing, it doesn't care about neck size at all.

I have gotten spoiled by these things as I could process a case in less time than it takes you to read this sentence.

But Holub makes nothing for the Legend and the Legend has no shoulder to base the thing upon anyway.

The Legend has the case headstamp area as the primary datum, and the secondary datum for the whole thing is the case mouth that you are trimming.

You correctly guessed the big raw looking aluminum body does the Legend case in a Holub fashion (quickly and well) but how is that possible in just a few seconds?

That is your puzzlement to take a shot at.

[Oldfeller]

Start your thoughts here --- a keyless chuck that grips the Legend case and spins it for mouth chamfering activities.

The cases datum off the headstamp surface inside the chuck body just like the print calls for.



Using the front face of the chuck as the transfer datum, you can now build the trimmer body swinging a milling cutter a la Holub's system.

Chuck it and trim it, just about that fast.

This brings up Winchester and their rather severe issues with case length ---- they too are either using some form of transfer datum to do this job or else they are trimming "raw" without referencing anything as a controlling datum system.

Errors possible in my system are a bad chuck up in the drill (cuts the case way short) or allowing the cutter to glaze the brass and not finish cutting completely (answer here is to measure each case to make sure cutting was really finished).

When I do my part, my trim variation is on the tune of a few thousandths, but losing focus on what you are doing can mean not cutting the case all the way --- which happens more often than any other error.

I only had two short chuck ups and maybe 5-10 that needed to be cut more because they weren't done yet. This is a far far lower failure rate than the 25% rate Winchester is dealing with right now.

[cwlongshot]

Factory FMJ same box... Remember these headspace off the case mouth.

CW

[Oldfeller]

That my friends is an over-pressure round waiting to be fired. Winchester should be ashamed.

[cwlongshot]

And thats exactly what has happened to too many! That long case gets up into the throat and cannot properly release the bullet. I have measured some almost 1.730.

Winchester SHOULD BE ashamed.

CW

[Oldfeller]

As you did the final prep (mouth chamfer, priming, etc.) did you notice the over-expanded cases up near the head?

They have a sizing line that extends a bit upwards and a hint of an expansion bulge form instead of the smooth Legend case taper.

Hit them with a digital caliper that is zeroed on a normal looking case and you will see +.0015" - +.0025" post sizing variation on these over-expanded cases.

I am considering ordering a "custom" LEE push through bullet sizer at .388" to do "bulge busting duty" on those pieces of range brass that had gotten over-expanded due to Winchester not keeping track of case length and charge weights the way they ought to be doing.

Just spot lube the bad area on a bulged case and push the case through the die, leaving the topmost area with a short flat .388" straight zone where the abuse bulge used to be. I find .388" to be pretty much the natural size up by the start of the extractor groove, so bulge busting the abused cases back down to this size seems to make sense to me.

Smaller than .388" would be compressing the body of the head itself, which would be a no-no in anybody's book. Bringing the head end of things back to .388" would tend to tighten up a sloppy over-expanded primer hole somewhat, but not 100% by any means.

If the sizer needed to grow a bit, I think that will happen naturally over a few hundred bulge bustings as the LEE push through sizer is just hardened steel and it is not immortal by anybody's guess.

But starting at .388" is small enough to give you some latitude as to the final size that you finally run with ..... and to leave some over-crush for managing the spring back effects, which will happen in the real world too.

[tomme boy]

It is not only Win that the brass is too long. I measured some Federal today that were 1.7185" Going through all of my brass right now to even them all up. Or as close to 1.70" as I can trim.

I am having a hard time getting them to stay put in my RCBS trimmer. They keep wanting to fly up out of the shell plate.

[Oldfeller]

I got confirmation back from LEE that they accepted the design for the .388" diameter sizer, specifying that the thing be built to "snug on a .388" pin gage" and not using pushed through lead slugs for anything in the sizing of the thing.

With LEE it is better to specify in detail, as if you make them guess, well, they will guess for you.

It also clarifies things a bit when they do it wrong, as you have not only the dimensions, but an approved test method called out on your original order.

I watched a lot of first time honchos go slack on providing fine drawing details, get bit, get told the situation was partially their own fault for not specifying it clearly and get shafted (or the purchasing members got shafted).

My own honcho jobs from years past involved me fixing thing with lap rods, size rolled lap bullets and generally making up the difference between LEE's real process capability, their tool breakage, their past habits and what was on the drawings.

This is one of the reasons I kinda like the four or five Legend bullets I have put forward so far ----- they only "exist" after going through the .3565" push through sizer die and they and the gun are quite happy with the lengths and diameters that result over their entire bullet length.

(and you thought that lengthened throat that just barely covers my longest bullet was just a wimsy, didn't you?)



Right baggie contains a 200 grain gas checked 35 Remington pig and bear bullet over 20 grains of BLC-2 as my "heavy moderate speed cast lead" slug.

Left baggie contains 210 grains (3 round balls) of buckshot on a string. This is my supersonic buckshot load and it weighs about the same and uses the same powder charge as the heavy 200 grain slug on the line above this one.

The loose ones in the foreground are four balls (280 grains) over 10 grains of BLC-2 in a compressed sub-sonic load.

All of these rounds will load freely and unload about 90% of the time freely, so that is improved loading and extracting performance compared to the previous attempts.

My theory is that the bulge buster LEE is building for me will fix the remainder of my "sticky loads" issues.

[Oldfeller]

This morning I made 25 of the same 200 grain rifle load, but using bullets with no gas check, just the powder coating. This is for testing the current theories from Fortune Cookie 45 and Elvis Ammo (and others) about not needing gas checks any more.

Yep, two of the YouTube mavens now claim that gas checks are not needed with powder coated bullets, but I suspect their opinion was built mostly doing revolver work on 44 magnums and sub-sonic AR bullets. The Legend is a little more rifle than that, and the distances involved can be a lot further.

Plus, I need to go to the 200 yard range anyway to get a gut feel for how much drop you are actually really dealing with with a large cast bullet and a moderate load at those extended distances.

This is generally educational, I did it once with a 30-30 and a 192 grain cast boolit and found at 250 yards it dropped 26" after zeroing it at 100 yards.

200 yards is about all I would try with the Legend unless I was slinging one of those long nosed high BC copper coated things, and I suspect I could only pick up 50 or 100 more yards using them. Knowing the drop and having a means of scoping it is quite important here, as you HAVE to allow for it .....

I got better guns for those longer distance beanfield shots, really.

I also intend to "pattern" some multi-ball loads to see how far out they are usable and useful. Buckshot at 80 yards from a shotgun spreads too much and slows down too much and that scenario makes up the recommended maximum range for a shotgun buckshot load --- 80 yards.

Speeds for non-magnum buckshot start out right at the 1,100 fps range and become subsonic very close in, so my subsonic 4 ball load is actually playing in the same ball park, but I hope because the train starts out in a rifled barrel they stick to the flight path a lot better.

However, my 3 ball load uses a full rifle charge of powder, and I suspect it moves right along at Davy Crockett black powder long gun speeds or maybe even a smidge better. This one gets tested at 25 yards and 50 yards and if it is tight enough it mebbe can go to the 100 yard range so we can see how much it drops and spreads.

[P Flados]

FYI, I have had good luck with full power PC coated "checkless" bullets.

Lee 150 & 170 in 30 cal (30 Herrett and 30-30) and Lee 200 in 35 cal (357 maximum).

[cwlongshot]

I have been shooting 450bushmaster plain base 457191 bullets to nearly 2k for almsost two years now. ZERO bore fouling.

IMHO PC coatings isnt a replacement for GC. But if pressures are low It is a damn site better than plain lead.

CW

[bikerbeans]

FWIW, I have a fully rifled 410 slug gun (JES conversion) and have shot four (4) 0.410" roundball loads. Accuracy was no better than multiball loads from a smoothbore 410. I hope your 35 cal experiment has better results.

BB

[Oldfeller]

What do you do ......

...... when a good rifle range goes bad? The elder brother, who was quite reasonable and easy to deal with is very sick (cancer) and the younger brother is an officious arsehole with some 'liberal seeming" rule loving tendencies?

I found over half the target placement spots had been removed since my last trip, all the remaining target mounting pipes were right up against the berms and they suddenly expect you to move repeatedly according to the distance you want to shoot.

Lastly, the younger wants to know exactly what you are shooting for ammo. And no, you can't shoot that here, we are not licensed for shotguns.

I left, after getting my money back.



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It is funny, I have a local indoor range that has no problem with what I plan to shoot. Issue using them is 30 yards is as far as they have got, distance-wise.

Investigating things a wee bit further, two out of 4 local rifle ranges have been refused a license to operate in the last year, and apparently these new restrictive new rules are being forced on everybody.

Times, they are a changing .......

[lar45]

I'm sure you told him that it's not a smooth bore...
If you lived closer, central Arkansas, I'd say swing by my place and shoot. The wife built me a 75 yd range in the front yard. The closest public range is an hours drive.

Back home one time I was swinging by the range to check the zero on my '06 on my way to go Elk hunting and I forgot to bring a target, so I looked through the stack of backers to see if any had a clear spot and the club president just happened to be there and threatened to kick me out of the club. I had been a paying member for over 10 years. He even wrote a letter to the editor of rifle magazine complaining about degenerate shooters...

[Oldfeller]

Lar,

Part of the issue is that us originals are really quite old now, and old folks really do get tend to get shat upon fairly frequently by various circumstances and persons as they tend to not be treated as "worthy" any longer.

Do the folks inhabiting this place even know this it the fourth (or since it was sold again it is perhaps the fifth) iteration of the list? The first 3 were called Shooters and we were a merry crew indeed, were we not? We invented and refined much of what these folks consider "knowledge".

We were somewhat innovative and rebellious, like younger people used to be. I don't really see that so much any more, innovative and rebellious younger people, I see conformists of a new stripe who abandon their own ideas quickly in the face of mild criticism.

But then again, hey, what do I know?

[tomme boy]

What state are you in?

[lar45]

I agree that there is some of the, if it's not in the book then don't do it crowd around, bbut it's not totally gone. I think that when it's presented in a clear fashion with the thought process behind it, then there is more acceptance of the project in mind.
If I didn't just get a Ruger AR in 450 Bushmaster, then I might be tempted in jump in and get a 350 upper to play with. Man I sure wish that Winchester would have gone with a .357 or .358 barrel instead. But with a properly sized throat, you can shoot oversized bullet and boolits without too many problems. Remember the NRA test of shooting 8mm bullets in a 30-06 that just the neck and throat were opened up? They actually measured less pressure with the 150gn 8mm bullet than with a 150gn 30cal bullet, using the exact same powder, brass and rifle. That one was definitely not in the book of acceptable stuff to do, but they did it anyway and everybody got to benefit from the knowledge gained.

I'm currently shooting the Speer .458" 350's with CFE BLK at 1800fps-ish. I got a Lee .451" push through sizer, lubed the bullets with Imperial and stuffed them through. They pop out the other side at .452". I'm getting around 1.5" groups with them and shot a smallish hog with it, went through both shoulders and the spine and exited. I'd love to see what the bullet looked like afterwards.
I've got the MP 45 Ruger mold and I'm going to cast and powder coat some and give them a try next.

I wish they would have let you shoot at that rifle range, I'm interested in seeing how the strings of buckshot behave.
Keep us posted.

Glenn.

[mehavey]

club president just happened to be there and threatened to kick me out of the club

out of curiosity, why?

BREAK, BREAK....

"The 350 Legend also uses the same .346” bore and .355” groove dimensions as 357 Mag and 357 Max. Therefore, bullets exit the muzzle at approximately .355” when fired from any of those three cartridges"

Notwithstanding internet lore to the contrary, the (at least my) Legend shoots .358-sized cast extremely well.

[lar45]

Because I did not bring my own targets and wanted to see if there was still some life in one of the ones left on the backers. He was convinced that I had snuck onto the range and did not belong there. I showed him my membership card and he said that they did not issue those( I had gotten the same type of card with the gate combo on the back for over 10 years) and asked where I got it. I told him from Larry at the Gun Barn. He replied that he would have to talk to Larry about being more selective about who he sold memberships to. I was polite, calm and courteous. I was just in a hurry as I was late getting out of town and just wanted to double check the zero on my rifle before my Son and I went Elk hunting.

Sorry, thread drift...

[Oldfeller]

What state are you in?

North Carolina