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Thread: 350 Legend and Cast Boolits

  1. #61
    Boolit Master



    cwlongshot's Avatar
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    Hello BB,

    Hope your doing well and hope that means that the Legend is working well for ya!

    My RARR will chamber a 357, BUT with resistance. A lil more than I am really comfortable with. So I size the bullets to .356.

    Im loading some more tonight for shooting Sunday afternoon.

    CW
    NRA Life member • REMEMBER, FREEDOM IS NOT FREE its being paid for in BLOOD.

  2. #62
    Boolit Master Oldfeller's Avatar
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    OK Lar, you are our "go to guy" for load development reality checks on milsurp powders.

    I will tell you what my gut says, and you can tell me if I am dyspeptic or not.

    My gut likes WC820 for the lighter bullets (124 to 158 grains) up to primer pressure sign, but I expect they will lose accuracy before reaching maximum fps.

    My gut likes BL-C2 with heavier powder charges of the slower powder for the heavier bullets, and I may run out realistic accuracy before hitting the highest speeds WC820 can give to the lighter slugs.

    In all cases, my gut says we lose accuracy before reaching all the speed we can get, so that puts a thumb on the scale in favor of the heavier bullet using relatively more of the slower BL-C2 powder (and that gas check shank really doesn't hurt things either). I am sorta kinda thinking I can mebbe get the heavier gas checked slug up to the "accurate speed" ranges of the lighter slugs with somewhat similar group sizes.


    ======================================


    I mentioned some reloading press toggle abuse --- my LEE Classic cast iron with powdered steel linkages can withstand some abuse and Lord knows reforming hundreds of cases dishes some press abuse out for sure ---- but it is my old post surgical shoulder and my open heart surgery scarring that really doesn't like those higher handle pressures very much.

    I just placed aluminum bar stock and wooden ball orders on Ebay to make me a 30" lever arm to actuate the Classic cast iron press on these higher force applications.

    Getting old boys, getting old ......


    EXPERIMENTS FOR FRIDAY

    OK, LEE makes a full length sizer die that can crunch brass to use the .391" using the chamber drawing spec dimension up at the rim of the unsupported web area. These cases load fine and after firing seem to be pretty much unchanged up at the top of the rim of the unsupported web area.

    Curiosity is always with us --- how big of a rim top at the unsupported web area will the gun force load? Got a lot of closing "slam" available in an AR-15 action, so what could it handle instead of a SAMMI spec .391" at the rim of the unsupported web area?

    Well, I can reluctantly slam shut on a .394" rim top which gets turned into a .3935" rim top in the process. Very Very Sticky, needs a firm bounce of a cleaning rod to rotate the bolt to open the action, this is something that should not to be done on purpose.

    .393" slams shut fairly easily, does not change any dimensionally, but still needs the cleaning rod to rotate the bolt to open it. The brass is under tension as loaded, but not enough to change it dimensionally.

    .392" shuts and rotates and opens/unloads normally about half the time on a bare case, does not always require a cleaning rod.

    .391" unloads about half the time. Issues often involve the bullet fit in the throat and rifling, not the case fit. What this says is have a cleaning rod or knock out rod in the car at all times ......

    Now I realize I am picking out some fine gnats that may only apply to this one gun and chamber, but still if you go around forming cases for a high pressure autoloading gun you need to know where the edges of things are.



    Also, I know I am head spacing off the taper, so the relatively closer I get to "dead on" the better support I will get for good primer strikes ---- but I still would like to be able to load and unload the rounds freely.

    Issue I now see is that once I put a lead slug on the front of the brass that actually will require all available "loading force" as the bullet does some very mild engraving, so I need all the slam force I can have available to me without losing some of it by getting the case itself involved in any low level friction activities. Case rim size goes back to .391" again (sorry Lee Classic Press, you'll just have to deal with the stress levels)

    Free extraction of any form of engaged lead slug is always problematical (and always has been). This may translate into having to push the slugs deeper into the case and thus minimizing the bullet engagement, or else always carrying a steel rod with me to the range to encourage sticky rounds to let go once slammed into place.

    Considering the lead slugs are acting as a door stop, I am no longer very concerned about light primer strikes.
    Last edited by Oldfeller; 09-30-2019 at 10:29 AM.
    All retired now, just growing tomatoes and building and shooting my guns.

  3. #63
    Boolit Master bikerbeans's Avatar
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    CW,

    I am doing better. Taking the 350L to a early season deer hunt in 3 weeks. The RARR is very accurate considering I have to shoot left handed (right shoulder OOC from a surgical procedure).

    Oldfeller,

    My apologies for the thread drift, keep up the good work.

    BB

  4. #64
    Boolit Master Oldfeller's Avatar
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    BB,

    Not to worry, I view a thread as a congenial conversation between the participants and personal conversations veer off on tangents all the time.

    My gun is put together, barrel fire lapped and ready to shoot something so I am forging forward on my first set of loads using my 3 bullet styles. I have a brass catcher on the way since I hate picking up scattered brass and I certainly don't want to leave any lying in the grass somewhere as it takes too durn much effort to make the things.

    So far Lil'gun seems to be the optimum speed of powder for jacketed slugs, with W820 coming in somewhat faster (akin to AA#9) and BLC-2 being slower and perhaps more gentle acting to cast and coated slugs like the sort I will be shooting.

    Still, I am laboriously processing all my brass, it takes a bit as my shoulder is still running sore and I do a little bit of it a day ......
    Last edited by Oldfeller; 10-01-2019 at 02:21 AM.
    All retired now, just growing tomatoes and building and shooting my guns.

  5. #65
    Boolit Master


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    Oldfeller. Keep a close eye for pressure signs. The LilGun goes to peak and over pressure very fast and with very little charge increase.

    And don't leave it in your powder hopper. It will melt into the plastic in as little as overnight. Ask me how I know!!!!

    I pulled some factory Federal 180gr apart and it looks like 5744. It was HIGHLY compressed. You could turn it upside down and tap it and the powder would not come out. You had to use something small to get it out. It had 26 gr of powder. I took some of it and 5744 and looked at it under a small microscope and it is exactly the same shape, length, color. It even has the same small hole in the center of the kernel.

  6. #66
    Boolit Master Oldfeller's Avatar
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    Tomme boy,

    You are talking about taking apart some factory jacketed loads, all of which would be using powders that are far far too abrupt and "peaky high pressure" to work out well for good accurate lead bullet shooting.

    Since you are talking about compressed loads, you won't be able to shoot that much milsurp WC820 (#59 to #62 on the burn rate chart) to fill the Legend case behind even very light bullets. It will have to be a partial case full, and very carefully measured at that. This would be possible, but likely not that easy to control with varying bullet weights.

    WC820 aka AA#9 gets some bad words from the 357 Maximum crowd as being too peaky and yields a slow fps bullet --- i.e. not worth doing in the Legend. I am going to drop all my thoughts on using WC820 at this point in time and concentrate on the "use BLC-2" path first instead.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    BLC-2 however is ranked at #105 to #106 on your powder speed charts and milsurp BLC-2 IS slow enough for a slow boosting mostly full case load behind even a heavy cast bullet. But it may still be able to get up to pressures that exceed the strength of the unhardened air dropped WW alloy you are using under your plastic jacket and as such it may not be the most accurate round unless the powder load volume (and the speed) are reduced from 100% load density.

    If BLC-2 is too much (too abrupt or too fps fast) I would normally drop back to WC872, which should certainly be slow enough to do the job. But WC872 picks up a whole crop of other issues and isn't optimal for these following reasons.

    Getting WC872 to light up and burn clean and make enough pressure to operate the action without filling it with partially burned powder granules would be the challenge..... WC872 generally requires the use of a bumper charge of fast powder to get it to ignite fast and burn clean in straight wall cartridges of any length (and the 350 Legend is a right long straight'un after all).

    All these issues with milsurp WC872 preclude it from serious consideration.

    Your milsurp powder needs to be pretty completely burned by a foot down the bore, this is another consideration I need to pay attention to.
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    Last edited by Oldfeller; 09-30-2019 at 11:59 AM.
    All retired now, just growing tomatoes and building and shooting my guns.

  7. #67
    Boolit Master


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    5744 works well at reduced levels. I use it in several 30 cals right now. And it is stable compared to h110 that everyone is using.

    5744 and 1680 are known powders that work well in the 357max loaded for TC encores so it should be fine at these levels also.

    Lilgun is to unstable for this. When you go from round primers to blown out primers in a .5gr increase that is not a good powder.

  8. #68
    Boolit Master Oldfeller's Avatar
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    Finished 350 Legend gun, sling and brass catcher all mounted.

    Upper .............. $269
    Lower .............. $150 includes $20 trigger spring kit and handle stop screw
    Scope ............... $79
    Shipping ........... $60
    New Molds ....... $55
    750 ea Brass .... $38
    Sizing stuff ........ $30
    Transfer fee ...... $25
    Brass Catcher ... $20
    Sling .................. $5

    Total ................. $731


    All of this goes to show it is all of the minutia, the little stuff that adds up on ya ......
    Last edited by Oldfeller; 10-01-2019 at 10:46 AM.
    All retired now, just growing tomatoes and building and shooting my guns.

  9. #69
    Boolit Master Oldfeller's Avatar
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    Well now, I took some time off from the project to do some other things, but now I am back working at the loads and bullet positions.

    First load, simple and safe, is 20 grains of BLC-2 which is a 80% density loading behind the largest bullet. Energy level should be enough to work the action, but not enough to endanger the unsupported web area up by the case. 20 grains is a sub-power listing for .223 but this is no sin at this stage of things ---- who wants 51,000 psi using a when proving out a gun and a load? I don't think lead slugs love those very high pressures anyway so mild is good on that aspect as well.

    One thing I have learned is that a knockout rod will HAVE TO GO on every range trip --- if you use the coated lead bullet as any form of door stop or try to engrave the nose any at all the extractor hook will always skip out on an attempt to unload the bullet.

    With .032" worth of "short case syndrome" I also question if the hook is ever being set correctly upon loading the bullet into the chamber. I have looked at a lot of used brass now and filed a lot of rough irregularities on the case head ........ and MANY of the case heads show signs of hook damage on just the back edge of the head groove, like the brass had slammed back into the hook upon firing and then the hook rode up and over and dropped into the groove.

    I suspect that short cases will do some version of this, even with using the bullet as a door stop.

    Things that work well --- using the full length body sizer as a very slow angle crimp die works VERY WELL. Couldn't ask for a better slow taper crimp and if you feel any resistance at all on the crimp stroke you immediately know something got bent or got grossly moved during previous operations. Then you can stop and check it out and fix it if possible.

    Seated bullets are pushing a mild bulge on down the case as they are seated, and the taper crimp action can bury as much of the case mouth into the powder coat as you desire (which currently isn't very much as I am mocking a full trim length 1.710" set up even though the case have .032" to grow to get to trim length at the moment. I think the bullets are pretty much immobile once seated and slow taper crimped.

    Using the nose form as a door stop in the forcing cone is a touchy thing. First, a seated bullet isn't EVER coming out of the chamber unless forced out by a tapping knockout rod. So far I got ONE just (1) loaded case to unload using just the extraction hook and the "T" handle, all the rest stuck fairly firmly. Slamming the round into the chamber and rotating the bolt hasn't been a problem once the correct OAL has been developed, BUT I question if "headspacing off the bullet" really works out as theorized with slop in the system. The same movement clearance that allows full and easy bolt rotation also could allow the hook to be up on the top of the rim when all the moving stops.

    So, that's where I am right now, time to walk out in the woods shoot a few and see what's what.
    All retired now, just growing tomatoes and building and shooting my guns.

  10. #70
    Boolit Buddy Valornor's Avatar
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    350 Legend and Cast Boolits

    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    I see no reason for this cartridge. It's only valid claim is it can be used in an AR style rifle. Otherwise it is a .35 Remington Ballistic Clone but on the low side. Its only other virtue is being strait walled so it can be used in Strait Wall Ammo States where you'd be better off hunting with a 12 or 20 ga shotgun like a Savage 212 or 220 or a TC Encore..

    This is a classic example of the phrase that jack O'Connor coined in 1962. "New cartridges are like new jokes!"

    I just can't get behind this one.

    And No Larry you are not wrong about forming the cases. Only thing they have in common is the rim dia.

    Randy
    I suspect the target market for this cartridge is in the states that restrict hunting to straight wall cartridges only. Given the popularity of the AR platform it isn’t surprising to see all sorts of new cartridges designed to specifically work in an AR.

    If we look back historically after WW2 when there was a glut of milsurp rifles on the market there were all sorts of cartridges that were introduced that made use of the existing rifles. It’s just history repeating itself. Only time will tell which cartridges live on, and which’s one are truly a fad.

    Personally I enjoy new calibers and the effort that goes into working up the loads, and have enjoyed reading the OP’s results!


    Check out my website www.theballisticassistant.com

  11. #71
    Boolit Master Oldfeller's Avatar
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    The 5/8" diameter aluminum rod stock came in yesterday for my larger LEE Classic cast iron single station press extra long lever arms.

    I figured out why the 30" long rod stock segments were so cheap, the extruded aluminum was somewhat ugly and it was beat up a bit appearance-wise. No problem, into the lathe chuck with most of the 30" length sticking out the back of the spindle head, applied a full sheet of open coat 120 grit sandpaper to the spinning stock and my two 30" pieces of 5/8" rod stock were in tip top ship shape appearance-wise in no time at all.

    Yesterday, I also decided that I was jest being lazy and was procrastinating on finishing off the fire lapping of the 355 bore. Yes, trial firing of the blue bullets is done, it did pick up a little blue powder dusting due to the rough land tops but yes, I could have lived with it just fine as it was "relatively minor" and not what I would think of as a real fouling issue at all.

    Still, while I was wrapping things up I sent 4 more laps down the barrel and it is now what I would consider "greased lead safe" which is 2 steps past "powder coat safe" and one step past "jacketed safe".

    The gun and the bore are done now, 4x12 magnification 1" scope is mounted, trigger job is done and first 50 rounds are loaded with the 3 types of lead bullets using two load levels of BLC-2 powder which will give a milder boost pressure to the lead slugs compared to WC820.

    Then I cleaned up my lathe. This, as we all know, signals "project is complete" to all gun type and machinist type people.

    Last edited by Oldfeller; 10-04-2019 at 09:19 PM.
    All retired now, just growing tomatoes and building and shooting my guns.

  12. #72
    Boolit Grand Master






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    didn't read the whole thread but where did you get 750 pieces of brass for 38 bucks????
    Quote Originally Posted by Oldfeller View Post
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    Finished 350 Legend gun, sling and brass catcher all mounted.

    Upper .............. $269
    Lower .............. $150 includes $20 trigger spring kit and handle stop screw
    Scope ............... $79
    Shipping ........... $60
    New Molds ....... $55
    750 ea Brass .... $38
    Sizing stuff ........ $30
    Transfer fee ...... $25
    Brass Catcher ... $20
    Sling .................. $5

    Total ................. $731


    All of this goes to show it is all of the minutia, the little stuff that adds up on ya ......
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  13. #73
    Boolit Master Oldfeller's Avatar
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    Hey Lloyd, how is it going?

    Actually, I bought 2,500 pieces of mouth damaged 5.56 brass from Everglades Ammo a while back on a 20% off sale for less than a nickel a piece (4.73 cents seems to ring a bell, but it was a while ago).

    Everglades sells mouth damaged 5.56 and the 5.56 blanks for the same price, the scrap metal price for brass.

    Catch it on their fairly rare site wide 20% off sale if you can, discounted 20% off scrap price is pretty good if you can catch it on the 2 days they offer it. You will need to sign up for their e-mail based Everglades newsletter as that is the only way to know if a sale is going on in time to catch it.

    Another way is to catch some sort of sale off of somebody who has just bought a pallet container load of 5.56 brass from Gov. Auction and is selling some of it off cheap to raise some bucks.
    Last edited by Oldfeller; 10-07-2019 at 12:59 PM.
    All retired now, just growing tomatoes and building and shooting my guns.

  14. #74
    Boolit Master Oldfeller's Avatar
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    It is the middle of October, the weather is shifting to full Fall mode, the tomato plants are all losing their leaves. Behind them they are leaving a bunch of naked green tomatoes that are ripening up in waves now.

    I have made up my first gasps at "walk in the woods" loads, and have observed the gas driven AR-15 action's functioning and the barrel residues.

    Since them range trips just to chonograph stuff costs too much money for me to be doing, them chrony workups are going to be kinda rare too. I will save up some of the stuff to shoot for data collection later on a range trip where I am carrying the Chrony and I will post it well after the loads are made up.

    What can I say at this stage? BLC-2 is looking good, you can get a moderate, relatively lower pressure cast boolit loadings that will work the action correctly with a heavier bullet, and you can ramp up into the neighborhood of a heavier compressed load if you feel any need to do so. You can even get to see some mild pressure signs if you go high up on the loads.

    Your cast boolet compatibility is pretty good with BLC-2, but mind you that the lighter loads will leave some light fluffy pepper sized trash in your barrel and in your gas system. NOTE: YOU GOT YOU A "TRASH IN BARREL" WARNING HERE


    Now let's talk about WC820, that ~ AA#9 ~ equivalent powder


    WARNING: WC820 is potentially dangerous in the 350 Legend ......

    HOWEVER, the use of WC820 (AA#9 equivalent) is fraught with some serious "pressure based concerns" in the long deep 350 Legend case with the largest of those concerns being the ready ability to do an accidental double charge and have it easily fit and hide inside the shaded zone deep inside the long dark 350 Legend case space.


    ...... that's really bad, boys and girls ......

    On the plus side for WC820 (AA#9), you CAN work up to some real pressure signs (if you believe in using jacketed bullets that is). There are some use cases where you don't have a lot of space left to put powder, those are the really suitable uses I have for WC820.

    HOWEVER, reformed cases made up from 5.56 brass that do have that have that little 0.10" inch long stub of "original form" up by the case head, these do not care much for very hot WC820 loads that will flatten your primer some --- the predicted fire forming of the thick web zone that we have all heard about DOES IMMEDIATELY TAKE PLACE in those "primer flattening" WC820 (AA#9) loads.

    This level of fire forming is DANGEROUS if done violently, all at once.

    ...... that pregnant guppy look is really really bad, boys and girls ......

    Let's talk about the very careful moderate use of WC820 in factory built once fired cases. Yep, you can use it, in carefully measured and metered charges in a factory case ---- but if you are a high roller who has lots of money and lots of factory cases you can find better powders to use that will actually readily give you the higher fps speeds that you are seeking without the risks that come with using WC820.

    Once again, Graff's is selling Winchester 350 Legend range brass for $17 per hundred and it is a much better deal for normal reloaders instead of forming their cases from Milsurp 5.56 or from Milsurp 5.56 blanks ---- both for safety reasons and for labor based cost reasons (making brass from 5.56 is a whole lot of work and mucho scrap happens while you are doing it).

    If you were going to personally choose to do this "form the cases" trip just for the experience of doing it remember to buy you some really cheap once fired blank 5.56 Military brass from Everglades and start your reforming trip using blank 5.56 Military cases -- this way you will get you some consistent full length trimmed brass at the end of things ......

    Last edited by Oldfeller; 10-11-2019 at 02:27 PM.
    All retired now, just growing tomatoes and building and shooting my guns.

  15. #75
    Boolit Master



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    Thanks for the tip on Graffs... 10$ ship was nice but 40$ minimum a surprise...

    400 cases headed my way as of this am!

    CW
    NRA Life member • REMEMBER, FREEDOM IS NOT FREE its being paid for in BLOOD.

  16. #76
    Boolit Master


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    You will have to swage the primer pockets CW

  17. #77
    Boolit Master



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    Not a problem... But why?

    CW
    NRA Life member • REMEMBER, FREEDOM IS NOT FREE its being paid for in BLOOD.

  18. #78
    Boolit Master


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    They are crimped in.

  19. #79
    Boolit Master



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    350 Legends?

    Huh..

    CW
    NRA Life member • REMEMBER, FREEDOM IS NOT FREE its being paid for in BLOOD.

  20. #80
    Boolit Master bikerbeans's Avatar
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    CW,

    Let me know what headstamps are on that fired 350L brass from Grafs.

    BB

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check