Real Experience vs. "Book" on Elk With 45-70

[Themoose]

Looking to see if some can share some real experience with hunting using 45-70 cast with black powder for large game... I read where some say that a bullet needs 1200ft/lbs of engergy to humanely take an elk... I plan on using either a 513 gr RN or a 396gr FN, most likely going with the heavier bullet...MY current load has a MV of 1139FPS with the 513Gr...which calculates to a max range of 150 yds using the "guide" of 1200 ft.lbs and the 396gr wouldn't make it to 100 yards.... this does not seem realistic... I know the trajectories are rainbow like, that is a given, but once a large heavy object gets moving, I think it would get the job done. ballistic calculator shows that the 513 gr. would have 1149ft/lbs @ 200yds, 1093ft/lbs @ 250yds and 1043ft/lbs @ 300 yds.

I only want to be able to shoot an elk within my proven range for accuracy...hopefully out to 300 yds..... not prove how far I can kill the animal. I certainly don't want to lose one to either poor shot placement or inadequate ammunition.

Can anyone share their personal experiences? Greatly appreciated,

TheMoose

[sharpsguy]

The 513 grain RN will shoot all the way through a buffalo at 1000 yards with a muzzle velocity of 1139 fps. I have killed three elk, two with a 45-70, and one with a 45-110, using black powder and a round nosed 506 grain paper patched bullet. I shot one of them, a spike, at the base of his tail from 70 yards, and the bullet went through him lengthwise and exited his chest. I have killed kudu, black wildebeast, blue wildebeast, blesbuck, zebra and springbuck with a 45-70 and a 506 grain roundnosed bullet, and never recovered a bullet, always getting complete pass through. Go to youtube and look up "Black powder zebra kill" and see what a 45-70 with a 480 grain flatnosed bullet does to a zebra at 161 yards from a 45-70.

Forget the paper ballistics, you will be fine with your round nosed bullet and velocity. I killed two kudu and a blue wildebeast at over 300 yards --laser measured--as well as a springbuck at 327 yards and one at 547 yards, and have never recovered a bullet. Just practice, and put the bullet through the lungs, and don't worry about your load. You are good to go.

[elk hunter]

I've taken a number of elk with the 45-70 but using jacketed bullets and smokeless powder in my Siamese Mauser bolt gun. My bullet of choice was the Hornady 350 grain with all the 3031 I could get in the case and seat the bullet with compression. My wife and I have also taken several elk with 50 caliber muzzle loaders using an approximately 400 grain soft cast Lyman Great Plains bullet ahead of 100 to 120 grains of 2 Fg black. Either is very effective on elk. 300 yards is a very long shot with either rifle. I'm not sure what bullet I would choose using black powder in the 45-70 case. The original government load was a 405 grain bullet ahead of 70 grains of powder and was quite effective but they eventually went to the 500 grain for longer range. I 'm sure that a bullet between 400 and 500 grains with all the 2 FG you can get in a modern case will cleanly kill elk at up to 200 and even 300 yards it will depend on your ability to hit them in the right place.

Good luck with your hunt and post pictures.

[Themoose]

Thank you kindly for sharing your thoughts

[CLAYPOOL]

Here's what I tell people about ALL .45-70's here in Illinois, BE CAREFUL of your back stop or direction of your shot. They go a long ways....

[303Guy]

The 513 grain RN will shoot all the way through a buffalo at 1000 yards with a muzzle velocity of 1139 fps. I have killed three elk, two with a 45-70, and one with a 45-110, using black powder and a round nosed 506 grain paper patched bullet. I shot one of them, a spike, at the base of his tail from 70 yards, and the bullet went through him lengthwise and exited his chest. I have killed kudu, black wildebeast, blue wildebeast, blesbuck, zebra and springbuck with a 45-70 and a 506 grain roundnosed bullet, and never recovered a bullet, always getting complete pass through. Go to youtube and look up "Black powder zebra kill" and see what a 45-70 with a 480 grain flatnosed bullet does to a zebra at 161 yards from a 45-70.

Forget the paper ballistics, you will be fine with your round nosed bullet and velocity. I killed two kudu and a blue wildebeast at over 300 yards --laser measured--as well as a springbuck at 327 yards and one at 547 yards, and have never recovered a bullet. Just practice, and put the bullet through the lungs, and don't worry about your load. You are good to go.

Do folks realise how small a springbuck actually is - and to shoot it at 327 yards! That's good shooting! (A large adult is around three feet high at the withers - and they have long legs).

[Bigslug]

I think if you dig deeper, you'll find that your 1200 ft-lbs figure is written in the era or from the perspective of jacketed, soft-core .30-ish caliber bullets in the 150-200 grain weight class. I honestly don't think it's accounting for a heavy, non-fragmenting, minimally-expanding projectile. We don't have to shoo bison out of our petunias today because they were thinned out with 400-500 grain bullets at pokey velocities back in the day.



Those are hard alloy 230 grain LBT .45 Auto bullets. The one on the right was shot into a row of milk jugs at 830 fps at maybe 7 yards to keep me out of the splash zone and it took NINE to stop it. No, it wouldn't be my first choice, but if I was hungry enough and sneaky enough, I'd have zero doubts about it's ability to penetrate & kill an elk quickly on a shorter range shot - - my point being that my 1911 load will have less than half the energy at the muzzle than your .45-70 will at 300 yards. You don't have a problem with the hitting power of your ammo.

Like you say, your big problem is trajectory. The old time bison hunters were looking across wide open spaces, were able to walk their rounds in, and had all the space & time in the world to follow one up - if indeed they even had many concerns about that. What you should be scratching your head over is the likely window of time you'll be given in which to spot your target, sort out the distance, adjust or hold over, and take a decent shot - understanding that if you miss your guess by as little as 25-50 yards, it might not be a humane kill anymore. If you expect to have that time, you've got a really cool goal in mind. If not, something flatter might be a wiser choice.

[Themoose]

I will be doing as much range time as I can. I am not into doing things halfway. I will have worked up a load, chronographed it and run it through ballistics program to plot trajectory out to 300-400 yds in 10 yd increments...THEN VERIFY at the range. I also will be hunting with a non hunting partner with a range finder. I will also be working on this using two rifles, one equipped with Soule mid-range sights and the other sporting a 10x mildot scope. Hopefully the latter will aid me in verification of POI more quickly when constructing my range cards.

[sharpsguy]

Moose--What kind of rifle are you shooting? I think we may need to talk. You are setting yourself up for a train wreck trying to hunt elk with a BPCR and a scope. Seen it happen, trust me.

[Themoose]

One is 1874 Shiloh Sharps, the other is H&R Buffalo Classic. I am not planning on only working up one load for both rifles...I will have one for each

[sharpsguy]

Moose-check your PM.

[waksupi]

Regardless of caliber, I consider shooting at game over 200 yards irresponsible. The animal taking a single step during time of flight can turn a lung shot into a gut shot.

[Hickory]

300 gr. or more 44 or 45 caliber at 1100+fps is a freight train and will kill anything in North America.
But you need to be close.

[Themoose]

Once again thank you all for your input. I respect all of your views and experiences. I do not plan to take a shot farther than I can accurately place it with extreme confidence gained from a lot of range time. As far as the time of flight, there is 0.21 seconds difference in time from 200 to 300 yds..not trying to start controversy, just stating ballistics calculation

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Shot 14(?) elk with 1895 45-70, rifle used on 4 others by wife, several ranch personal. Used 300 gr Barnes Original(pure lead, thick pure copper jacket) at 2200 fps. Most were one shot stops, occasional coup de gras. None traveled very far. Most shots 60-120 yards. Took one bull, large 5x7 in wide open on very well known ground(my practice rifle range - high country pasture), walked about 150 yards after first shot and was hit several more times as he walked. Normally would not shoot that far, just the right conditions, first shot killed him, just didn't fall down right away. No elk lost. Many pass-thrus, seldom found expanded bullets. Must hunting around 10,000 feet, significantly less drop at higher altitude (less air).

[Themoose]

My math is good, fat fingers and cell phone not so good. Difference in time of flight is 0.31 secs

[MOA]

There is also one other thing I've discovered about lung shot elk. They like to take deep breath, hold it and keep on moving. They won't usually get far, but if your in wooded area the blood trail may just stop until the animal stops to blow. Then you get a v pattern of blood on the ground, and another deep breath and another possible move unless it has lost enough blood to pass out and die. Your load will have no problem dispatching an Elk. Most likely as mentioned if you do your part you will never find the boolit.

[Riposte1]

I can find no practical or scientific evidence that kinetic energy has anything to do with ballistic efficiency. I've known a couple of real rocket scientists (one wrote the ballistic programs for the Gemini space shots) who scoff at the idea. The other who worked for NASA during his college years, and who became a surgeon, compares the effect of 500 lbs of kinetic energy to being the same as eating 11 mini gummy bears - KE converts directly to calories.

What it takes to kill game is penetration and diameter of the wound - energy does not kill anything.

A 45-70 has been killing big game for over 100 years - I figure it will continue to do so long after I am gone.


Cheers!


Riposte

[DeputyDuke]

I have killed two cow bison with my Sharps in 45-70 and one with a 40-70. The penetration with these black powder loads at 1,200 fps is astounding. The trajectory is the challenge. Just to give you a little bit of an idea, here are the numbers from my Hoch tang sight. This is with a 500 grain bullet in the 45-70 with 69.5 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 fg. My sight is set at 33 minutes elevation for perfect 100 yard zero. I add 5 minutes to be on at 150 yards, and 7 minutes of elevation for every 50 yards out to 650, which is the far target at the gun range I shoot at. I firmly agree with Buckshot that 200 yards is a darned good maximum range to be shooting at live animals, even with a modern scoped rifle. My only black powder bull elk was killed with a 54 caliber round ball at 40 yards, and that ball was under the hide on the far side of the chest where it had pulled the hide away from the flesh but failed to exit. A 45-70 in that same scenario would likely penetrate 3 broadside elk, as we have heard bullets pass through a bison at 100 yards, strike a rock with enough retained velocity to go howling off toward Canada sounding the the ricochet in a Spaghetti Western.
Duke

[white eagle]

I can tell you this every time I used black in my 45-70
I was amazed and actually awed by the results
after all how can this old combination work in this day and age
best of luck in your hunt