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Thread: Two species of humanity

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by semtav View Post
    If you are asking if I believe we came from a speck of something and out of complete chaos came perfect organization ?? Umm no can't go there !! I'd believe in creation before I believed in evolution. But I don't think at this point the human mind is capable of contemplating infinity. How long do you suppose that speck sat out there before it went bang?? But one could argue the same about God !! What did he do for infinity before he created the heavens and Earth.

    All great things to lay out under the stars on a dark night and contemplate!!

    Sent from my E6910 using Tapatalk
    It was not even a speck. There was nothing, not time, not space, not gravity, not light, nothing what so ever. Nothing cannot last forever so something happened, let there be light and with that we got particles and movement and you can't have particles and movement unless you have space and time. It was that light and those particles that created space and time as they expanded the event horizon as God entered the Universe God created with a Big Bang. This light and particles did organize themselves to a degree but it really is still kind of chaos out there.

    We certainly can contemplate infinity, fully understanding it is a greater challenge.

    Before the Universe there was nothing no time, no space, no infinity. A void that is probably harder to understand than infinity, a void without substance or time, absolute nothingness not even God. Yes, God has always been but before the Big Bang there was nothing, no time, no God, no space.

    Imagine an end to the Universe where everything collapses back to a single point, some unbelievable black hole that swallows up everything so that nothing is left. It would be a return to the Void, no light, no space, no time maybe even no gravity.

    Tim
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    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    …..Clearly you have never spent any time among the destitute Christians of the world. You set up worse case situations, to create the false impression that joy among Christians is confined to the developed world. Either you are doing so intentionaly to undermine the Christian's joy or are "gobbled up with it" and we say in West Texas. Contrary to you assumptions, the Christian faith is a functional faith, that supports a postive life even in the most dire of circumstances. I have never seen a depressed 3rd. world Christian and suicide is unheard of among those folks.The Christian is never without hope, even in the most dire of circumstances, for we know that our true home is not on the earth...…..
    I think you know what I was saying and are dodging the issue. I agree that joy among Christians is not confined to the developed world. I actually think that there is probably more joy in the developing world as the complexity of "modern life" causes much distress for Christians in America. They seem to lose track of what is really important.

    My point was that being Christian does not guarantee a happy life, like you have pointed out it can actually lead to much persecution and strife. "The Christian is never without hope" but that does not feed the belly or stop the rapist. Of course life on Earth is only a precursor to happiness in Heaven.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  3. #123
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    All that you state is nothing but speculation and guess work.
    No one can prove any of it and no one can grasp the billions of years that have passed since the universe began.
    In time man will learn and know more and may solve many more of the mysteries of the universe.
    But that learning will not come from reading the bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    It was not even a speck. There was nothing, not time, not space, not gravity, not light, nothing what so ever. Nothing cannot last forever so something happened, let there be light and with that we got particles and movement and you can't have particles and movement unless you have space and time. It was that light and those particles that created space and time as they expanded the event horizon as God entered the Universe God created with a Big Bang. This light and particles did organize themselves to a degree but it really is still kind of chaos out there.

    We certainly can contemplate infinity, fully understanding it is a greater challenge.

    Before the Universe there was nothing no time, no space, no infinity. A void that is probably harder to understand than infinity, a void without substance or time, absolute nothingness not even God. Yes, God has always been but before the Big Bang there was nothing, no time, no God, no space.

    Imagine an end to the Universe where everything collapses back to a single point, some unbelievable black hole that swallows up everything so that nothing is left. It would be a return to the Void, no light, no space, no time maybe even no gravity.

    Tim
    EDG

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    All that you state is nothing but speculation and guess work.
    No one can prove any of it and no one can grasp the billions of years that have passed since the universe began.
    In time man will learn and know more and may solve many more of the mysteries of the universe.
    But that learning will not come from reading the bible.
    OK, yup
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    I think you know what I was saying and are dodging the issue. I agree that joy among Christians is not confined to the developed world. I actually think that there is probably more joy in the developing world as the complexity of "modern life" causes much distress for Christians in America. They seem to lose track of what is really important.

    My point was that being Christian does not guarantee a happy life, like you have pointed out it can actually lead to much persecution and strife. "The Christian is never without hope" but that does not feed the belly or stop the rapist. Of course life on Earth is only a precursor to happiness in Heaven.

    Tim
    Very true. Look at all the hundreds, if not thousands of Catholic priests who molested many 1,000's of innocent kids.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    All that you state is nothing but speculation and guess work.
    No one can prove any of it and no one can grasp the billions of years that have passed since the universe began.
    In time man will learn and know more and may solve many more of the mysteries of the universe.
    But that learning will not come from reading the bible.


    Well, EDG, you just might be surprised. The Bible is the very FIRST tome to specify the EXACT ORDER in which the world was created. And when we read of Christ passing through a solid, locked door in the upper room after His crucifixion, did you know that quantum physics could explain just how that might happen? You dismiss the Bible as a book of "goat herders' tales," but it is SO much more than that! So stand by, and brace yourself for some surprises ..... IF you're man enough to admit them, of course.

  7. #127
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    I have attended my fair share of management seminars during my short life. At every seminar a simple exercise in communication was conducted. This exercise consisted of gathering 8-12 people in a circle. The first person would be handed a notecard with one sentence on it that was not difficult to remember. Each person in the circle was asked to pass along the sentence to the person sitting next to them by whispering it into their ear.
    When the last person heard the sentence they were asked to repeat the words they were told. Every time I experienced this "training" the words from the first person to the last changed so much they were unrecognizable.
    To think for a remote second the contents of the bible were not altered in a significant manner during the course of time is impossible to me.
    Last edited by AK Caster; 10-01-2019 at 06:17 PM.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK Caster View Post
    I have attended my fair share of management seminars during my short life. At every seminar a simple exercise in communication was conducted. This exercise consisted of gathering 8-12 people in a circle. The first person would be handed a notecard with one sentence on it that was not difficult to remember. Each person in the circle was asked to pass along the sentence to the person sitting next to them by whispering it into their ear.
    When the last person heard the sentence they were asked to repeat the words they were told. Every time I experienced this "training" the words from the first person to the last changed so much they were unrecognizable.
    To think for a remote second the contents of the bible were not altered in a significant manner during the course of time is impossible to me.
    That little exercise has been going on for decades. Everyone is familiar with it and many people intentionally screw up the message to be funny. At the very least, few take it seriously. To compare this to something like the copying and transmission of the Bible is not valid. The scribes who copied the originals over the centuries took great care so errors were avoided.

  9. #129
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    We'll play a different game AK. We'll put 20 people in a loose circle, with the first to write the color of socks he's wearing on a pice of paper. The 2nd in line takes that paper to the copy machine, and makes a copy, returning the original to the 1st. The 2nd continuing likewise around the circle, with the 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th to check their copy against the 2nd, 6th, 13th, and 17th copy for accuracy. Person number one was only involved in the original color of the socks, but what would you think the chances would be that number 20, and everyone else, has the correct answer to, what color is number 1's socks?

    This is a much better rendering of the way scripture was recorded!

  10. #130
    You are entitled to your disbelief EDG. I used to sound just like you, once upon a time. It took me 53 years before I finally saw my Maker... right under my nose, in plain sight. I cannot be angry with you the same way I can’t be angry at a blind man for not being able to see.

    But, absent your Maker, you and your fellows won’t survive to solve any mysteries. You’re falling from grace even as we speak and the consequences are fatal. Your kids can no longer distinguish between the genders, much less mate and parent their own kids. Your women fight for the right to abort their own children, and make war on their men. The blind whitewash perversion and evil and call it “alternative lifestyles”. At this rate you’ll be gone in a few generations at most.

    The faith and the faithful will be here when atheists, socialists, and sexual degenerates are in the same historical trash can that now holds the Romans, the communists, the fascists and all its enemies in between.

  11. #131
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    Not one of the generalized comments you made about me are true.
    To say those things without knowing who I am just tells me that you really ARE angry and you ARE afraid.
    The hallmark of believers is their fear of death. So they latch on to the belief in the everlasting hereafter promised in exchange for their faithfulness. Fortunately for the world you are not in the majority and as time goes by your version of claiming to not hate will die and be forgotten. Your faith is something you perceive as an insurance policy- just another form of self serving belief. If you did not hope to benefit from the promise of a eternity of bliss I suspect you, like me, would not bother. You are simply rolling the dice at the Las Vegas of eternity hoping to hit the jackpot.
    There is really little difference between christians and the others in the trash that you mentioned. If you go look up the statistics on the prison population of the USA you will find that the vast majority of the criminals incarcerated are christians- about 65%. Does that mean a christian is more likely to be a criminal? Apparently christianity is not very effective at keeping its believers from committing crimes and going to jail.
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-us-prisoners/

    The drive to survive does not come from some silly religious faith. 1.7 Billion Chinese are proof of that. I can assure you there are perfectly fine people in this world who have never touched a bible and never will. You should get out of your insulated cocoon and see what the big wide world is like.

    Quoting Mark Twain.
    “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”

    Your book will not ever change because your god cannot be wrong - right?
    In the mean time the world will move on as scientists lift the veil of the universe. The list of mysteries already solved by science is long and distinguished. Science will find the answers to many more mysteries while your faith finds NONE- zero.

    Your faith claims it already knows all the answers while science just keeps searching for the truth. If you fear the truth and fear science you are lost.



    Quote Originally Posted by Guy La Pourqe View Post
    You are entitled to your disbelief EDG. I used to sound just like you, once upon a time. It took me 53 years before I finally saw my Maker... right under my nose, in plain sight. I cannot be angry with you the same way I can’t be angry at a blind man for not being able to see.

    But, absent your Maker, you and your fellows won’t survive to solve any mysteries. You’re falling from grace even as we speak and the consequences are fatal. Your kids can no longer distinguish between the genders, much less mate and parent their own kids. Your women fight for the right to abort their own children, and make war on their men. The blind whitewash perversion and evil and call it “alternative lifestyles”. At this rate you’ll be gone in a few generations at most.

    The faith and the faithful will be here when atheists, socialists, and sexual degenerates are in the same historical trash can that now holds the Romans, the communists, the fascists and all its enemies in between.
    Last edited by EDG; 10-04-2019 at 10:52 AM.
    EDG

  12. #132
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    It is virtually impossible that over the centuries and many transcribers of holy text that not a single one did not have some agenda or ulterior motive. Essentially you are saying that they all had a pure heart when it came to translation and that is a preposterous notion. You can look at the putrid clergy in today's christian churches as an example of how corrupt anything associated with any religion is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    That little exercise has been going on for decades. Everyone is familiar with it and many people intentionally screw up the message to be funny. At the very least, few take it seriously. To compare this to something like the copying and transmission of the Bible is not valid. The scribes who copied the originals over the centuries took great care so errors were avoided.
    EDG

  13. #133
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    No I will not be surprised. The only thing telling you the bible is right is the bible itself.
    That is known as circular logic. You can keep telling yourself you are right but that does not make you right. You have no external proof that any of your beliefs have any basis in fact.
    The bible says a lot of things but why would you believe any of it? You would not believe any other holy book in the same manner? You believe because you have been conditioned to believe without thinking and without logic.

    It would be possible for me to write a holy book of my own and make claims just a far fetched. Why would you not believe my version? My version would have more scientific proof than your version because your version has zero - none. Your goat herders were not educated men in the modern sense.
    They were the tellers of tall tales. Heck they could not even read, write or speak English. Algebra had not been invented. Your christ certainly did not know any physics -quantum, relativistic or classical.
    I know that you pick and chose the parts of the bible that you want to observe and those that you don't want to observe you ignore. Yet it is all supposed to be the word of god...
    You would do well to study physics a little more. It tells the story of what really controls and runs the universe. Scientists solve the mysteries of the universe. Religion solves nothing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post

    Well, EDG, you just might be surprised. The Bible is the very FIRST tome to specify the EXACT ORDER in which the world was created. And when we read of Christ passing through a solid, locked door in the upper room after His crucifixion, did you know that quantum physics could explain just how that might happen? You dismiss the Bible as a book of "goat herders' tales," but it is SO much more than that! So stand by, and brace yourself for some surprises ..... IF you're man enough to admit them, of course.
    EDG

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post

    Well, EDG, you just might be surprised. The Bible is the very FIRST tome to specify the EXACT ORDER in which the world was created. And when we read of Christ passing through a solid, locked door in the upper room after His crucifixion, did you know that quantum physics could explain just how that might happen? You dismiss the Bible as a book of "goat herders' tales," but it is SO much more than that! So stand by, and brace yourself for some surprises ..... IF you're man enough to admit them, of course.
    Zoroastrianism predates Judaism and actually heavily influenced Judaism. The Bible's "EXACT ORDER" regarding creation is nothing to crow about it is simplistic and not informative to the point of being the basis of "Young Earth" Christian misinformation.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    Zoroastrianism predates Judaism and actually heavily influenced Judaism. The Bible's "EXACT ORDER" regarding creation is nothing to crow about it is simplistic and not informative to the point of being the basis of "Young Earth" Christian misinformation.

    Tim
    Do you not allow that the stories in Genesis could have been handed down from one generation to another (written or orally) from the creation of man to the establishment of the Nation of Israel? These stories would have then been consolidated into the form we have now.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickisrulz View Post
    Do you not allow that the stories in Genesis could have been handed down from one generation to another (written or orally) from the creation of man to the establishment of the Nation of Israel? These stories would have then been consolidated into the form we have now.
    I don't know about allow but I don't believe that all of Genesis is true history, I believe it is a few parables spoken first by Moses and then some actual true history of the Jewish people.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    Not one of the generalized comments you made about me are true.
    To say those things without knowing who I am just tells me that you really ARE angry and you ARE afraid.
    The hallmark of believers is their fear of death. So they latch on to the belief in the everlasting hereafter promised in exchange for their faithfulness. Fortunately for the world you are not in the majority and as time goes by your version of claiming to not hate will die and be forgotten. Your faith is something you perceive as an insurance policy- just another form of self serving belief. If you did not hope to benefit from the promise of a eternity of bliss I suspect you, like me, would not bother. You are simply rolling the dice at the Las Vegas of eternity hoping to hit the jackpot.
    There is really little difference between christians and the others in the trash that you mentioned. If you go look up the statistics on the prison population of the USA you will find that the vast majority of the criminals incarcerated are christians- about 65%. Does that mean a christian is more likely to be a criminal? Apparently christianity is not very effective at keeping its believers from committing crimes and going to jail.
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-us-prisoners/

    The drive to survive does not come from some silly religious faith. 1.7 Billion Chinese are proof of that. I can assure you there are perfectly fine people in this world who have never touched a bible and never will. You should get out of your insulated cocoon and see what the big wide world is like.

    Quoting Mark Twain.
    “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”

    Your book will not ever change because your god cannot be wrong - right?
    In the mean time the world will move on as scientists lift the veil of the universe. The list of mysteries already solved by science is long and distinguished. Science will find the answers to many more mysteries while your faith finds NONE- zero.

    Your faith claims it already knows all the answers while science just keeps searching for the truth. If you fear the truth and fear science you are lost.
    Nah. Like you, I spent most of my life refusing to see the obvious, and believing the absurd because that’s what everyone else did. Like you, I justified my intellectual dishonesty and laziness by wrapping it up in fake pop science and by putting on false airs moral superiority. Like you, I was afraid to read and study the bible because I as afraid of what I might learn, and what the cool kids would think of me. Like you, I thought the bible and faith were invented to control men. It wasn’t until after I started to study it, that I learned that the faith is largely about controlling and improving yourself. Such ideas do not sit well with the Intellectual poseurs so prevalent today. My friend, I know what you’re going to say before you say it. I’ve worn the same shoes you’re walking in now.

    At the end of the day, if some homosexual or atheist or greasy hipster idiot wants to think I’m an uncultured and uneducable bigot because I’m a Christian... I suppose there is no harm in it. Whether you fall from this world believing it was Darwin and Murphy cleaning up the gene pool, or your Maker calling you home - it is no concern of mine. Our Maker will deal with each of us as He sees fit.

    Best of luck to you.

  18. #138
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    Guys, I still believe Jesus is saying in John 3v3 that until a man is born from above ( born of God) he is unable to comprehend matters of a spiritual nature. In Romans 9 v 22 Paul talks about our Creator having authority over the same lump of clay to make one vessel to honor and one to dishonor. All of us are guilty of sin against our Creator - I guess this is where we loose our non-believing guys - but the believers know this and our Creator has chosen to show forth His wrath and make His power known against the vessels fitted out for destruction while He also has chosen to make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy which He before prepared for glory. All of us deserve destruction; we are all rebels. By His mercy, some of us are going to be saved. Now the absolutely astonishing thing about this is that it cost our Father His perfect Son's life to satisfy His justice in order to redeem sinful men. Men who will share in the glory of the Father and His Son. It is beyond my grasp to understand His love for us.

    Talking to a non-believer is like talking to a man born blind who not only insists that he can see, but that he can see much better than you and that you are the one who is blind.

    Some of us will receive mercy; some of us will receive justice. But none of us will receive injustice.
    Last edited by wmitty; 10-09-2019 at 12:47 AM.
    There are only two kinds of men:

    1. Those who know Jesus Christ is both Creator and Sovereign Lord.

    2. Those about to learn that Jesus Christ is both Creator and Sovereign Lord.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmitty View Post
    Talking to a non-believer is like talking to a man born blind who not only insists that he can see, but that he can see much better than you and that you are the one who is blind.

    Some of us will receive mercy; some of us will receive justice. But none of us will receive injustice.
    Very good post. Both points are well and clearly stated.

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