Two species of humanity

[dtknowles]

EDG
Would you please give me the title /author of some "real scientific books" that prove the theory of evolution. I would like to read them.
In my comments I wrote "I can not grasp" the theory of evolution. I feel I have to do what I believe is right for my life. But you imply that I should believe like you to be correct. Isn't that self righteous?
I ask, if I live my life according to the Bible how will that hurt you?
I will add one comment that I hope makes you think about your position. The brilliant minds of 500 years ago thought the the world was flat. Could evolutionists be wrong? Could the Bible be wrong? Both are possibilities but I must go with what "I" believe. You may do the same. I will pray for you.

I can help you understand the Theory of Evolution. What part of the theory do you not understand? Where do you think the evidence is lacking? What standard of evidence do you require. The "preponderance of evidence," "evidence beyond a reasonable doubt," or "beyond a shadow of a doubt?"

There is no smoking gun. The evidence for the evolution of species is pretty much beyond the shadow of a doubt. The evidence that Homo Sapiens Sapiens evolved from Homo Sapiens who evolved from Homo Erectus, who evolved from Homo Habilis who probably evolved from from Australopithecus, this evidence is beyond a reasonable doubt or at least the preponderance of the evidence. There is not even an accepted consensus theory for the origin of life on Earth.

Tim

[dtknowles]

The New Testament is clear that the faithful in the Old Testament were "saved" through faith resulting in appropriate behavior (not perfect, but a live not characterized by sin)---see Hebrews. This is exactly the same for New Testament believers. Everyone that has or will be saved is because of Christ's death and resurrection. The difference is that New Testament saints know the mechanism of their salvation while the Old Testament saints did not. The "rules" never changed and no one was ever saved by following The Law or offering animal sacrifices--see Romans and Hebrews.

You might be right, the rules maybe did not change and todays Jews are on the right path and Christianity is a hoax.

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

You might be right, the rules maybe did not change and todays Jews are on the right path and Christianity is a hoax.

Tim

God's covenant with Israel had to do with obedience to The Law in exchange for his blessing on the Nation as a whole and their continued occupation of their land. Israelites were not promised eternal life in exchange for keeping The Law.

When the nation rejected Christ, they lost their land and temple worship within a few decades as he predicted. If the New Testament can be believed, Israel remains outside God's family until she (or individuals) accept Jesus as the Messiah.

[dtknowles]

God's covenant with Israel had to do with obedience to The Law in exchange for his blessing on the Nation as a whole and their continued occupation of their land. Israelites were not promised eternal life in exchange for keeping The Law.

When the nation rejected Christ, they lost their land and temple worship within a few decades as he predicted. If the New Testament can be believed, Israel remains outside God's family until she (or individuals) accept Jesus as the Messiah.

It was not just the Israelis who got thrown out of Palestine but also the Christians. Bethlehem, Jerusalem, Jericho, Galilee all came to be ruled by Arab Muslims. Now they are ruled by the Jews again, lost are the Christians.

Tim

[rbuck351]

dtknowles

I don't believe God created the universe nor that the universe was created nor that God is the universe. I believe the universe has always existed but is not a being or alive. It just is. I don't know what created life but I believe that under the right conditions life is spontaneous. Doesn't happen very often but every few billion years somewhere in the universe new life happens.
If everything in the universe had to be created, who created God?

[Ickisrulz]

It was not just the Israelis who got thrown out of Palestine but also the Christians. Bethlehem, Jerusalem, Jericho, Galilee all came to be ruled by Arab Muslims. Now they are ruled by the Jews again, lost are the Christians.

Tim

The Christian Church was never tied to the Promised Land.

Christians look forward to what happens after their life here on earth. Old Testament Jews looked for God's material blessing during their natural lives and keeping the Promised Land (in peace). Old Testament prophets warned of wars and losing the land for not adhering to The Law; not of eternal death and punishments in the afterlife.

My point being, is that the ancient Jews (at least in Old Testament writings) did not think following The Law was a path to eternal life. Do they think that now? I don't know.

So, at least during Bible times, there were not competing paths to salvation. There were, however, differing ideas on how to please God; these being strict adherence to The Law (and laws supposedly based on The Law) versus faith as evidenced by love directed toward God and your fellow man. Jesus taught the latter which he backed up with Old Testament teachings.

[Char-Gar]

The New Testament is clear that the faithful in the Old Testament were "saved" through faith resulting in appropriate behavior (not perfect, but a live not characterized by sin)---see Hebrews. This is exactly the same for New Testament believers. Everyone that has or will be saved is because of Christ's death and resurrection. The difference is that New Testament saints know the mechanism of their salvation while the Old Testament saints did not. The "rules" never changed and no one was ever saved by following The Law or offering animal sacrifices--see Romans and Hebrews.

You are correct, I was working up a study of Romans today and Paul asserts that Abraham was Justified (made righteous) by his radical faith/trust. Even though he and his wife Sarah were of an advanced age, he trusted/believed in God to make him the father of a huge multi-cultural family. It was his faith/trust that caused this.

Among other things (salvation from the consequences of sin by faith/true in Jesus as God's true Messiah), Jesus was the mechanism through which God fullfilled his promise to Abraham, i.e. create large multi-cultural family around the world. Paul referenced this huge global family as a "new humanity". A new humanity and not another species which, is a biological term and not a theological concept.

This new humanity, like Abraham was justified (made righteous) again by faith/trust, but this time in Jesus as Lord and savior. Note, that being made just/righteous does not make Christian any less human, but God does not hold their guilt against them. They are not innocent, but are declared to be innocent by God's soverign will. This is what we call "grace", i.e. God's unmerited favor.

Romans is a fantastic piece of Biblical literature and most certainly Paul's longest and most through treatise on the Christian faith. I truly enjoy teaching Romans and am blessed all over again, every time I do the prep.

From first to last, a postive relationship with God is keyed by faith/trust. This is the constant. Desires to have proof before faith/trust wil be granted is antithetical to Biblical faith. Have faith/trust and then a person will have all the proof and more that is needed. People who reqire proof first, sadly will never experience the joys of being God's child on this earth and in the life to come.

[Battis]

Most creationist consider the earth to be 6,000 to 6500 years old.

And that is accepted as the truth?

[Thundarstick]

You are correct, I was working up a study of Romans today and Paul asserts that Abraham was Justified (made righteous) by his radical faith/trust. Even though he and his wife Sarah were of an advanced age, he trusted/believed in God to make him the father of a huge multi-cultural family. It was his faith/trust that caused this.

Among other things (salvation from the consequences of sin by faith/true in Jesus as God's true Messiah), Jesus was the mechanism through which God fullfilled his promise to Abraham, i.e. create large multi-cultural family around the world. Paul referenced this huge global family as a "new humanity". A new humanity and not another species which, is a biological term and not a theological concept.

This new humanity, like Abraham was justified (made righteous) again by faith/trust, but this time in Jesus as Lord and savior. Note, that being made just/righteous does not make Christian any less human, but God does not hold their guilt against them. They are not innocent, but are declared to be innocent by God's soverign will. This is what we call "grace", i.e. God's unmerited favor.

Romans is a fantastic piece of Biblical literature and most certainly Paul's longest and most through treatise on the Christian faith. I truly enjoy teaching Romans and am blessed all over again, every time I do the prep.

From first to last, a postive relationship with God is keyed by faith/trust. This is the constant. Desires to have proof before faith/trust wil be granted is antithetical to Biblical faith. Have faith/trust and then a person will have all the proof and more that is needed. People who reqire proof first, sadly will never experience the joys of being God's child on this earth and in the life to come.

Amen!

[dtknowles]

......From first to last, a postive relationship with God is keyed by faith/trust. This is the constant. Desires to have proof before faith/trust wil be granted is antithetical to Biblical faith. Have faith/trust and then a person will have all the proof and more that is needed. People who reqire proof first, sadly will never experience the joys of being God's child on this earth and in the life to come.

Many Christians of faith/trust will never experience the joys of being God's child on the Earth but at least they can hope for joy in the life to come. Many Christians lead lives of deprivation and persecution. Desperate for a better life they flee their homes to avoid rape and murder and starvation and try to move to the U.S. and elsewhere.

Yep, Biblical faith is the idea that you need to believe without proof. Biblical faith is the acceptance of the idea that the books of the Bible are the word of God and the only words of God and accept no other religious teachings.

The Bible does not bring joy to everyone who reads and accepts it but maybe it gives them the strength to live another day.

Tim

[dtknowles]

...……….. Most creationist consider the earth to be 6,000 to 6500 years old.

Do we have any Creationists here. Does anyone reading these post believe the Earth is less than many billions of years old and has not had a biosphere for many Millions of years.

Tim

[Char-Gar]

Many Christians of faith/trust will never experience the joys of being God's child on the Earth but at least they can hope for joy in the life to come. Many Christians lead lives of deprivation and persecution. Desperate for a better life they flee their homes to avoid rape and murder and starvation and try to move to the U.S. and elsewhere.

Yep, Biblical faith is the idea that you need to believe without proof. Biblical faith is the acceptance of the idea that the books of the Bible are the word of God and the only words of God and accept no other religious teachings.

The Bible does not bring joy to everyone who reads and accepts it but maybe it gives them the strength to live another day.

Tim

My experience does not validate your position. I spent 4 years of my life living and working among the poorest people of the Andes Mountains of Ecuador and the tribal people of the Rain Forest. I spent many nights around a camp fire exchanging stories and telling of our lives. I found their lives full of humor, laughter and yes even joy. The joy they found in what we would consider a hard and deprived life changed the way I look at life and general. In every way possible, I was blessed by my years among them and was changed for the better.

Around the fires at night, they would ask me "Cuentanos mas en cuando de Tejas, Hermano Carlos" (Tell us more about Texas) I would regale them with Texas tall tales, and laughter would abound. Texan has a never ending supplies of stories and they need not be 100% true. They knew I was "stretching the long bow", but that was part of the fun.

I also spent several months among the very poorest of rural Southern India and again I found joy and laughter. We Americans have stilted notion of what it takes to make people happy. The think the abundance or absence of things, is a key factor. I am here to tell you that is untrue.

[dtknowles]

My experience does not validate your position. I spent 4 years of my life living and working among the poorest people of the Andes Mountains of Ecuador and the tribal people of the Rain Forest. I spent many nights around a camp fire exchanging stories and telling of our lives. I found their lives full of humor, laughter and yes even joy. The joy they found in what we would consider a hard and deprived life changed the way I look at life and general. In every way possible, I was blessed by my years among them and was changed for the better.

Around the fires at night, they would ask me "Cuentanos mas en cuando de Tejas, Hermano Carlos" (Tell us more about Texas) I would regale them with Texas tall tales, and laughter would abound. Texan has a never ending supplies of stories and they need not be 100% true. They knew I was "stretching the long bow", but that was part of the fun.

I also spent several months among the very poorest of rural Southern India and again I found joy and laughter. We Americans have stilted notion of what it takes to make people happy. The think the abundance or absence of things, is a key factor. I am here to tell you that is untrue.

I think I was not clear. Yes, the poor of goods but rich of heart can be very happy. Even missing a meal now and then will not destroy a rich heart. Watching your child die of starvation, watching your sons being taken away and killed or your daughters taken away and raped. Watching your crops and home burned. How many are persecuted by gangs or terrorists or just fervent believers of a different faith.

I was not talking about the happy poor, I am talking about the desperate, the hopeless, persecuted.

Tim

[semtav]

Do we have any Creationists here. Does anyone reading these post believe the Earth is less than many billions of years old and has not had a biosphere for many Millions of years.

Tim

If you are asking if I believe we came from a speck of something and out of complete chaos came perfect organization ?? Umm no can't go there !! I'd believe in creation before I believed in evolution. But I don't think at this point the human mind is capable of contemplating infinity. How long do you suppose that speck sat out there before it went bang?? But one could argue the same about God !! What did he do for infinity before he created the heavens and Earth.

All great things to lay out under the stars on a dark night and contemplate!!

Sent from my E6910 using Tapatalk

[Char-Gar]

I am a creationist. I believe the universe was created and did not just happen. The universe and all that is in it, is the product of intelligent design. That is where I stop talking about where the universe, earth and all that came from. I have no idea about the process. Lots of folks have lots of theories, but nobody really knows.

[Char-Gar]

I think I was not clear. Yes, the poor of goods but rich of heart can be very happy. Even missing a meal now and then will not destroy a rich heart. Watching your child die of starvation, watching your sons being taken away and killed or your daughters taken away and raped. Watching your crops and home burned. How many are persecuted by gangs or terrorists or just fervent believers of a different faith.

I was not talking about the happy poor, I am talking about the desperate, the hopeless, persecuted.

Tim

There is a small village in the Ecuadorian Andes named Caliata. It is three hours off the pavement in 4 wheel drive. There was no electricity and no running water. Water was hauled from a community well about a half mile away.

During the week, there are only woman and children there, as the men go into the towns and cities to find work. Most work as Cargadores (carriers of boxes and crates that are little more than beasts of burden). The Christian church there predated my presence, but it became one of my responsibilities.

On one trip there, a village elder took me to a high bluff, where the village dead were burried. He showed me several rows of grave and told me that 8 out of 10 children in the village died over a two month period, of some illness they did not understand. No doctors came, the governent did nothing. He went on to tell me their faith remain strong and the joy of the Lord still reigned in their hearts. That night we have a spirited worship service followed by great conversation around a fire inside a choza. I spent many happy days and nights there and still miss my friends in that place. While my Spanish was good, they worked hard to teach me Quechua. They laughted and told me that Quechua was the language of the angels and I would need to know it when I got to heaven. I did not prove to be an apt pupil.

Clearly you have never spent any time among the destitute Christians of the world. You set up worse case situations, to create the false impression that joy among Christians is confined to the developed world. Either you are doing so intentionaly to undermine the Christian's joy or are "gobbled up with it" and we say in West Texas. Contrary to you assumptions, the Christian faith is a functional faith, that supports a postive life even in the most dire of circumstances. I have never seen a depressed 3rd. world Christian and suicide is unheard of among those folks.The Christian is never without hope, even in the most dire of circumstances, for we know that our true home is not on the earth.

During my time in Ecuador, I acutally had Christian haters try to kill me on several occasions. Bullets, rocks and clubs did not scare me off. Therefore folks like you are small potatoes and do not intimidate me in the least. The only thing that really bothered me, was the cost of having a bullet hole patched in the drivers side door of my IH Scout. I was driving and the bullet was stoped by a cross member in the door. I don't believe the bullet stop was just luck. I know persecution for the faith up close and personal. An Ecuadorian Pastor friend, had non-believers go into this house at night and break both his legs, beating him with a shovel.

I have spent months in rural South India among the Christians there. Often they are attacked and even killed by Muslims and Hindu alike for their faith and just being different.

If nothing else, 50 years as a "soldier of the Cross", will make you fearless in the face of the scoffer and the unbeliever. I know you for what you are, for I have seen you all over the world. I see no purpose in debating you about the belief of Christians, but I will challenge you when you misrepresent how faith in Christ works in human life in difficult circumstances.

I will say that the American variety of Christianity is often weak,shallow and under developed, as the folks have not had to rely on it for bare existance. They always have credit cards and the government to pick up the slack. While America does have many faithful and dedicated Christian, it still is the land of plenty. Even those on welfare are far, far better off, than those I knew in the Andes and the Rain Forest. The Christian faith is a living Faith and a Faith for living.

[Char-Gar]

Clearly there are two species of humanity. And apparently only some are allowed to comment.

Yet still you freely comment and spread your anti-Christian blather. Still another of your falsehoods. You are not a different species, but you are not part of the New Humanity, created through faith in Christ. There are great benefits for being a part of the New Humanity and great consequences for those who are not.

I know you don't like being called out for what you are, for it degrades your fun messing with Christians minds and faith.

[Char-Gar]

Uhh no I don’t get to comment freely. Several posts were removed because weak minds couldn’t handle a discussion.

Careful what you call me, I may whine to a mod about you.

It was not me who dropped a dime on you.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

No one has to "drop a dime" on anyone here. The threads are routinely perused by the moderators who remove exceedingly discourteous and inflamatory posts. I think the procedure is to remove the entire thread, so as not to be appearing to take sides, or just because there is nothing constructive remaining to be said. If threads in which you are involved frequently disappear, that says something...... Personally, I like the system.

So, about two types of humanity: I do believe that two types exist. They are (1) most folks, and (2) those without a conscience. I've discussed the issue of conscience with others before, and believe that it is closely related to possession of a soul (spirit), but that one can have a soul and no conscience. If you do not believe in the existence of a soul, read no farther.

To me it appears obvious that a soul must exist, because a spirit is given by God, and returns to it's giver upon death. As we will be resurrected, the soul must exist to be returned to the new spiritual body. Also, all men will be judged, and there would be little point in judging a body with no soul, as when the body is dead it is dead.

Conscience, if anything, is more demonstrable than is a soul. Most people follow a relatively moral and relatively ethical path, whether due to religious beliefs, training, peer pressure, or fear of penalty of law is debatable, perhaps none of some for some, and some of all for some. That is what I would define as conscience, the inner feeling of what is right and wrong.

But, some have absolutely no conscience. Psychologists and psychiatrists like to refer to them as schizophrenic and anti-social. Some ministers might refer to them as demonically possessed. Whatever and whichever, they have absolutely no compunction or inhibition against performing evil acts. They have absolutely no conscience at all.

A case in point. Several years ago two ex-convicts home invaded a private residence where they found a mother and two daughters. The tied them up, raped them, and then doused them with a flammable liquid and burned them alive. No conscience existed in either of these two monsters, and after apprehension no regret was expressed. Serial murders and rapists seem to abound, and regret or remorse is not in their make up. Such evil actions have become so common that I doubt if any of us don't have at least some knowledge of the occurrence of a similar event. What makes the difference between a common crime and an abomination without conscience is that the act has no purpose discernable to an ordinary person. For example, a thief may steal for a variety of reasons, usually for profit. A rapist may rape for sexual gratification or a desire to inflict harm. But to rape three women and then burn them alive serves no purpose at all, unless it is to see them scream and suffer, in which case it goes to a lack of a conscience.

Day after day such monsters' mug shots are shown on the websites of the various news groups. One can stare at them for a long time trying to see any indication of what lies beneath. My experience has been that you can't tell a book by it's cover. Most of them appear normal in visage, some white, some black, some oriental, some old, some young, some fat, some thin, etc. -- but nothing in their face or eyes that says "I'm different".

What is different is that they can commit unspeakable acts of violence and have no remorse or pity. They do not have a conscience. This is the second type of humanity. Why don't they have a conscience? I do not know. Perhaps any of several reasons, but because it isn't there they can't be rehabilitated. Oh, this or that person found Christ while in prison and became a wonderfully worthwhile person. My contention is that if they did so, it was because they had a suppressed conscience that someone was able to reach and cause to grow. But most of them die as deeply steeped in evil as they lived, because nothing is there to nurture.

Beware of these people. They exist among those of us who do possess a conscience, and are difficult to identify before they commit their acts. Be cognizant of small indications like cruelty to animals and routine fracturing of the small laws, hostile relationships with co-workers, etc. The second type of humanity walks among us.

[dtknowles]

The Christian Church was never tied to the Promised Land.

Christians look forward to what happens after their life here on earth. Old Testament Jews looked for God's material blessing during their natural lives and keeping the Promised Land (in peace). Old Testament prophets warned of wars and losing the land for not adhering to The Law; not of eternal death and punishments in the afterlife.

My point being, is that the ancient Jews (at least in Old Testament writings) did not think following The Law was a path to eternal life. Do they think that now? I don't know.

So, at least during Bible times, there were not competing paths to salvation. There were, however, differing ideas on how to please God; these being strict adherence to The Law (and laws supposedly based on The Law) versus faith as evidenced by love directed toward God and your fellow man. Jesus taught the latter which he backed up with Old Testament teachings.

So Jews wanted to please God for rewards here on Earth but Jesus taught we should please God so we can be rewarded in the after life? I have been researching what Jews believe of life after death without learning much.

"There isn't anything after life, because Jews believe that life never ends. It just goes higher and higher. In the afterlife, the soul is liberated from the body and returns closer to her source than ever before.
The Torah assumes this in its language many times — describing Abraham's death, for example, as going to rest with his fathers and similar phrases."

Certainly God should be pleased with strict adherence to his law but now we should not look to be rewarded in the here and now. I guess that shoots down the prosperity Bible.

I like, "faith as evidenced by love directed toward God and your fellow man." I like it but don't see a lot of it.

Tim