SW99 vs. North Dakota LEO Pistol Qualification

[Hrfunk]

Hi all! Here is number 14 in this series. In this one, I'm pitting my old duty pistol against the current North Dakota pistol qualification course. Check out the video to see how it does!

Howard

[Hrfunk]

Moderators, I messed up the title of this thread. It should have been North Dakota. If someone could correct it, I would be most appreciative.

Thank you,
Howard

[Burnt Fingers]

How do you mess up North Dakota to Wisconsin?

[Hrfunk]

How do you mess up North Dakota to Wisconsin?

I recorded the Wisconsin course yesterday and apparently had that one on my mind.

Howard

[ShooterAZ]

Fixed the title, and I am now going to watch the video!

[Hrfunk]

Fixed the title, and I am now going to watch the video!

Thank you!

Howard

[Dan Cash]

Howard,
Your test is invalid as you performed it on a sunny, calm day. A North Dakota demonstration/test must have a minimum of 35 mile per hour winds; usually cross winds which require significant aim off..
Second, there must be snow. Even better is a heavy snow storm so you have to hunt for your target. Watch the movie Fargo and rerun your test in like conditions if you want it to be valid. You betcha.
Dan from western ND.

[rintinglen]

So far, I have had one of every pistol you have used except the 3913.
Great shooting as usual, Howard.


A few words about the S&W 99. It is an interesting but quirky gun. It is full sized, DA/SA, service pistol: not really all that concealable. It was one of the first pistols to come complete with interchangeable back strap inserts in 3 sizes to allow the user to adjust the feel to his hand. Magazines were/are 10,12, and 15 round in the 9 mm version. Mine has a slide mounted de-cocker that allows the shooter to restore the pistol to DA mode, though S&W went through a couple of permutations, before dropping production. What really sets the S&W 99 outside the mainstream (and what kept the gun from receiving the accolades it might otherwise deserve) is the peculiar paddle-style, lever, magazine release. Like the heel-clip releases, it makes dropping a magazine inadvertently very difficult, but it is slower than the browning-style push-button release. If you was born and raised on a 1911 style mag release, you ain't gonna like this. Not one little bit. But it is serviceable, and with practice, works just fine for all realistic reloading drills. I have never had a malfunction of any kind with the one I have. I got mine used for a very reasonable $255 because the rear sight had gotten bunged up, but I was able to swiftly put it back to rights at no cost by re-connecting the windage adjustment screw to the rear sight body.
Mine now serves as one of my Home defense guns. 15 rounds, more accurate than my glock 19, I endorse it fully.

(and if any one has the medium and small inserts and would like to sell them, drop me a PM.)

[Petrol & Powder]

Howard, Thanks again for another great video.

rintinglen - The paddle style mag release on the SW99 really isn't much different than the mag release used by H&K on their pistols, although I think the release on the SW99 is a bit less prone to accidentally releasing the magazine than the H&K (which is a good thing).

I agree that the SW99 is a bit quirky by U.S. standards but the Walther P99 is widely used in Europe. The P99 is used by police forces in Germany, Poland, the Netherlands and other countries. I had the pleasure of shooting a P88 (totally different pistol from the P99) and it was an outstanding pistol. I think Walther would have been very happy to make the P88 in large numbers but it proved to be too heavy and WAY too costly for wide scale adoption. The P99 was an excellent compromise in weight, features and mostly ....cost ! Had Glock not achieved such incredible dominance of the U.S. police market before the P99 arrived on the scene, I think the joint S&W/Walther project would have been more successful.
I'm never real impressed with polymer framed, striker fired pistols that are nothing more than Glock knock-offs but the P99/SW99 is actually a good pistol in its own right.

[onelight]

Another good video , the seated portion seems a good and practical addition to the course of fire.
I have not fired a S&W 99 but it looks like a gun I would like.
Thanks for posting

[Hrfunk]

Howard,
Your test is invalid as you performed it on a sunny, calm day. A North Dakota demonstration/test must have a minimum of 35 mile per hour winds; usually cross winds which require significant aim off..
Second, there must be snow. Even better is a heavy snow storm so you have to hunt for your target. Watch the movie Fargo and rerun your test in like conditions if you want it to be valid. You betcha.
Dan from western ND.

Ha, ha! Duly noted. Maybe I'll try it again in late January!

Howard

[Hrfunk]

So far, I have had one of every pistol you have used except the 3913.
Great shooting as usual, Howard.


A few words about the S&W 99. It is an interesting but quirky gun. It is full sized, DA/SA, service pistol: not really all that concealable. It was one of the first pistols to come complete with interchangeable back strap inserts in 3 sizes to allow the user to adjust the feel to his hand. Magazines were/are 10,12, and 15 round in the 9 mm version. Mine has a slide mounted de-cocker that allows the shooter to restore the pistol to DA mode, though S&W went through a couple of permutations, before dropping production. What really sets the S&W 99 outside the mainstream (and what kept the gun from receiving the accolades it might otherwise deserve) is the peculiar paddle-style, lever, magazine release. Like the heel-clip releases, it makes dropping a magazine inadvertently very difficult, but it is slower than the browning-style push-button release. If you was born and raised on a 1911 style mag release, you ain't gonna like this. Not one little bit. But it is serviceable, and with practice, works just fine for all realistic reloading drills. I have never had a malfunction of any kind with the one I have. I got mine used for a very reasonable $255 because the rear sight had gotten bunged up, but I was able to swiftly put it back to rights at no cost by re-connecting the windage adjustment screw to the rear sight body.
Mine now serves as one of my Home defense guns. 15 rounds, more accurate than my glock 19, I endorse it fully.

(and if any one has the medium and small inserts and would like to sell them, drop me a PM.)

If it were me writing the description, I would replace "quirky" with "unusual." Having carried the SW99 for seven years I will say that for anyone taking the time to master its idiosyncrasies, it performs quite well. I actually came to like the paddle style magazine release (even though I cut my teeth on a 1911). I discovered that it is possible (not to mention fast and easy) to release the mag with the middle finger of my shooting hand. Although I'm out of practice after more than a decade of carrying an M&P, if you watch closely in the video, you will see me releasing the mag using that technique during the reloading stage. When I carried the SW99, that technique was reflexive. The SW99 (at least with the original trigger system) also allows the shooter to put the "de-cocked" pistol back in single-action mode if a precise shot is needed. I believe the P99/SW99's are unique in regards to that feature.

All in all, though, I think you are right. The SW99 was just a little too "different" for the average American shooter/LEO. Then, when the New Jersey State Police had problems with them, most of the remainder of the Law Enforcement community lost whatever little interest they may have had in them. Nevertheless, I still like mine. I'm glad I was able to buy it back when the department traded them. The interchangeable back straps were also a nice feature back around 2000. They afforded a means to modify the grip to fit the shooter for the first time since semi-autos came into widespread LE use. That was not an insignificant feature when it came to issuing a pistol to an entire department with differing hand sizes.

Thanks for watching!
Howard

[Hrfunk]

Another good video , the seated portion seems a good and practical addition to the course of fire.
I have not fired a S&W 99 but it looks like a gun I would like.
Thanks for posting

You're welcome!

Howard

[Kilosierra]

Having used push button releases most of the time and only having a little trigger time with paddle releases ala H&K and Walther, I’m honestly of the option that push button mag release are no faster and should be replaced by paddle one because they’re less likely to be released accidentally.

[Hrfunk]

Having used push button releases most of the time and only having a little trigger time with paddle releases ala H&K and Walther, I’m honestly of the option that push button mag release are no faster and should be replaced by paddle one because they’re less likely to be released accidentally.

I can't say that I've ever had a problem with either type inadvertently releasing.

Howard

[Kilosierra]

Never really had a consistent issue with mags being inadvertently released outside of Glocks especially with the factory extended release. Used to play around with the rookies and deftly release the mag out of their issues Glock and see how long it would take them to realize that the mag I was messing with was theirs.

[onelight]

Through the years I have had several button style release , when working in tight quarters both in my pocket and in OWB holster I have not had that happen with HK paddle style.
Ambidextrous buttons on all the ones that had the problem.

[Hrfunk]

I suspect the occurrence of any such issue would have a lot to do with the holster being used.

Howard

[Petrol & Powder]

Within the topic of the style of the magazine release, there are some valid issues.

There are different schools of thought concerning magazine releases.
On a small pistol carried as a deep concealment weapon or a back-up weapon - it is imperative that the one magazine be securely locked in the gun. The speed and ease of swapping that magazine takes a back seat to the security of that one magazine. It is unlikely that the user will have time at close ranges to conduct a reload or even have a spare magazine. A heel mounted mag release makes a lot of sense when that one magazine really, really needs to be locked in place.

On a full sized duty gun there is a little more emphasis on the speed of magazine changes. The 1911 style button release is one of the faster styles and is seen as far back as the early Colt pistols and the Lugers. However, even on full sized pistols, the Europeans often utilized heel magazine releases for military pistols. Speed of reloading wasn't a primary concern and military users did not discard empty magazines.

While the 1911 style mag release was nearly universal on full sized pistols in the U.S., the Europeans had a mixture of button releases and heel releases for decades. They didn't see the heel release as a negative feature.

The paddle type release was probably first seen on handguns in the H&K designs. It is a bit of a compromise between speed and security. (although it is still very fast with practice) As an added benefit, the paddle style magazine releases are easy to manufacture as ambidextrous units.

As a side note, many European guns that are equipped with magazine safeties and button style releases; don't have "drop free" magazines. So even though they have 1911 style mag releases (like the Hi-Power, or the Star Model B), the operator still needs to pull the magazine out after depressing the release. This is considered a plus when you need to retain your empty magazine.

I think Americans get a little obsessed about the speed of magazine changes. If you've shot that gun dry and need to change magazines; 1. You're in trouble. 2. you better hope you have some cover ! Standing there while changing a magazine while someone is trying to kill you is probably not a good practice. Back in the revolver days most tactically savvy cops just carried a "New York Reload" (a Second Gun).

[onelight]

I suspect the occurrence of any such issue would have a lot to do with the holster being used.

Howard

I agree , a better designed holster would have prevented the problem.