More Slug Madness! Mossberg 695 & Accurate 73-470S

[Ranch Dog]

Great thread. Wish I had more time to tinker with the shotgun. I already have my hunting load but this stuff always interests me.

"thinker" is a great description! I'm not a shot reloader, I intended to get there about four years ago, right after I finished up a slug load. Pffft!

I've ended up with shelves of components. I have a conditioned storage room here on the place, one wall of shelves must look like a portion of the BPI warehouse. My wife shakes her head.

[longbow]

I can say from experience that Cap'n Morgan is right on better sealing and if you look at old timey loads pre plastic gas seal era powder charges were higher to make up for leakage. Not sure how predictable that would be but pretty much all modern load data is for plastic gas seal. BPI does publish some shot loads using all card/fiber wads but not sure how useful they'd be for slug loads.

However, I know what Michael is trying to accomplish so understand why he is using all card wads with nitro card over powder wad... a nice solid and aligned wad column.

Some of my gas seals have failed both on cushion leg wads and loads I have made up using the gas seal from a cushion leg wad cut off and under a hard card wad column. I always look for wads after shooting and especially if accuracy is not good. There is always a reason and wads are a big part of it. I've seen lots of gas seal failures.

I have not tried dedicated gas seals like the X12X. As I've mentioned before, reloading "stuff" is scarce around here so I have to order in and just haven't. I am running off old supplies I got many years ago when I could still shop in the States which is about and hour away to my favourite "local" store, Clark's Allsports in Colville Washington. Those days are over now as we foreigners are not allowed to buy reloading stuff in the States any more.

I'd be interested to see what would happen accuracy wise if you replaced the nitro card wad with a plastic gas seal then adjusted the wad column for crimp. If the gas seal is of good quality and well supported I'd think it would work well and provide better sealing but of course that is speculation on my part. My feeling is that the lip of the gas seal fails when the gas seal is cocked slightly in the bore then leaves the muzzle unevenly. However, that trip through the forcing cone may result in some blow by due to excess clearance and that might result in scalloped edges on the gas seal. Maybe less likely with nitro card wad? It would take some comparison testing to be sure.

Also, in this case with oversize powder coated slugs I'd have to think that the slug itself would be sealing the bore just as a boolit does and the wads would only see "equalization" pressure as 10,000 PSI filled in to the base of the slug. A wad slug or slightly loose slug (as many are) would not be sealing the bore.

Michael: Are these slugs ACWW or soft lead? Just curious. At 0.006" over groove diameter that is quite a bit of squeeze down.

Longbow

[bikerbeans]

LB,

I think RD had the alloy listed on the pics in his post.

I think his "oversize" slug is the key to his accuracy as it aligns the slug in the bore. As far as the swaging of the slug when you pull the trigger no big deal to me. I have shot heat treated slugs that were 0.01" over groove diameter without a problem.

I don't see a x12x as a real solution. I have found they are always loose in the hull so must bump up to work, which can result in distorted or damaged seals.

If not for recoil, the solution to an accurate 12ga slug load would be to omit the wads and fillers. Even with a very slow powder this approach puts you in Ed Hubel's world.

BB

[Markopolo]

are you saying BB, that it might be best to crimp a slug that is slightly over bore size into a all brass shell and just load the proper powder amount.. pretty much like you would a rifle? sticking with the common rules of reloading lead boolits with the pressures in the neighborhood of 11,000 or less?

i do wonder what that would be like in a smooth bore shotgun.. with the proper crimp, sizer, and so forth, why not? it would be much easier to get a 2 2/3 in shell properly centered into a 3 inch barrel. the jump for centering would be easier to accomplish?

what do I know anyway.. just mulling..

[Ranch Dog]

Michael: Are these slugs ACWW or soft lead? Just curious. At 0.006" over groove diameter that is quite a bit of squeeze down.

The bullets are plumber's lead and tin. I always keep some as a sample before any treatment, the naked bullets are .734," and the coated are .737". Percentage-wise, .737" to .731" is slight less than .311" is to .308". With that in mind, the difference did not both me.

BHN is 13.5 for both samples. I bake them at a very stable 400º for 15 minutes, then let them air cool. My oven is big enough to do 100 slugs at a time. I know a house remodeler in the community, works on a lot of old homes pulling plumbing, vents, and window seals and counterweights. He brings it all to me and each winter I smelt it into ingots.

I took the stock off and it is putting a lot of pressure on the barrel. It takes a lot of pressure to get it back on.

[Ranch Dog]

I don't see a x12x as a real solution. I have found they are always loose in the hull so must bump up to work, which can result in distorted or damaged seals.

Using transparent hulls demonstrate this. When I've dropped a shell with the X12X or any of the other seals and most column pressure wads, I find particles of powder ahead of the seal. Not so with the current set up.

Another thing that I don't like with the plastic components is the trash on the range. I live on my place, and the entrance to my pastures are down the range. In the last four years, I've sent about 1000 shells worth of components downrange. Not a lot given my best years find 10X that in CF components spent in a single year. This spring, I got busy and cleaned it up. I'm like that, I hate trash here or anywhere else. I putting a lot of lead in the berms, but they will be mined in the furture. I figured that there must be a better way to treat my place. Even yesterday, every day I shoot for that matter, I'm still picking a small can of gas seals up. The wads were easy; the seals are a witch. At least the Sabot Technologies Sabot Pressure wads are piled up in the berm.

The only thing I find now is the nitro cards at about 15'. With this latest load, I see some of the 21mm waxed at 35 yards. They are reasonably intact, a bit of erosion on the outside but a good solid core. I pick them up if I see them, but I suspect birds would pull them apart for packing nests.

Oh, I did get a boar hog in a trap last night in the area I was hunting. I forgot I had set it, but remembered and went out at 9:00. My hound dog was very pleased!

[longbow]

Okay, so your slugs are pretty soft.

I tend to agree with BB that squeeze down may be over rated as a problem. Not only is the percentage fairly small as you point out but the slug gets a running start before it meets the constriction of the barrel so it has some momentum behind it already. Even in a 3" hull the slug is jumping through the forcing cone before it sees any resistance and constriction.

I know a guy who accidentally got a 0.735" RB load into a full choked gun and shot it. No damage to the gun he said and that was with ACWW. Also, from what I understand about the Paradox guns which were essentially a 12 ga. side by with rifled chokes, the slugs started out at 0.740" and choke constriction was 0.690" at the lands so quite the squeeze there.

I am going to follow your lead with all card wad column and give that a go. Even if there is leakage who cares if it works and gives good accuracy!

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

Cap'n, when I first looked down the barrel, I thought that it was unburnt powder. I placed a plastic bag over the muzzle and ports and used a light charge of compressed air to collect a sample. I've seen a lot of unburnt powder in my life, and this is not powder. When you touch a flake with the tip of a dampened toothpick, it dissolves. Any unburnt powder will not do that.

Now that's interesting. The residue must be powder ashes then, but I still think your load would benefit from an over-powder seal. Don't be fooled by the pressure needed to seat the wads; the lips of a plastic seal will still expand and seal much better than a felt wad (and a nitro card doesn't seal at all until it reach the bore). Winchester/Olin found that a bottle cap shaped paper card provided a much better seal than normal wads as the pressure would help expand the lips of the seal against the walls of the shell in the chamber (which is a critical point as the pressure spikes long before the payload has entered the bore).

[Greg5278]

BPI sells some nice heavy waxed Cards that seal pretty well. They don't shred and Tear under Pressure.
The updated X12X would be best, and save Powder. Powder is usually more costly than the Seal.
I mused a bunch of different things but that seal seemed to work best. I had more Seal Failures with the BPGS than anything else, even using BPI Loads. It might be good for Shot Loads, but not for Slugs.

Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Good morning Ranch Dog, I did enjoy reading your post, thanks for sharing it.
Can't wait to hear more.
That 73-470 just might be a good candidate for a Brenneke style slug with wad attached
I was thinking of this slug too as Brenneke tho a bit heavier at 547 gr

Best regards,
Ajay K. Madan
Super Blazing Sabots

[Greg5278]

Okay, so Who has the Mold for the 74-470? I might be able to work something up.
Does anyone want tom trade Slugs for Lead/Tin/Alloy?
The results would be available to all.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[longbow]

Greg:

I don't think Ranch Dog posts here much anymore. He hangs out on the Lee site.

So, I'll answer... the 73-470 is an Accurate Molds mould:

https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet...bullet=73-470S

Longbow

[glockky]

Greg:

I don't think Ranch Dog posts here much anymore. He hangs out on the Lee site.

So, I'll answer... the 73-470 is an Accurate Molds mould:

https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet...bullet=73-470S

Longbow

Didn’t even realize Lee had a forum

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Good morning, anyone looking for Ranch Dog?
Look no further:
https://texashuntingforum.com/forum/..._Lee_slugs_for

Best regards,
Ajay K. Madan
Super Blazing Sabots

[missionary5155]

Lee does not have an Official site.. It is owned and operated by RD. There is also another RD site called Rossi Rifleman.

[longbow]

I dunno...

https://www.lee-loader.com/viewforum.php?f=43

Ranch Dog is/was posting here. I don't see anything newer than 2020 though. Maybe old news and my old memory?

Longbow

PS: Okay, I lied... there is nothing newer than 2020 on the Cast Bullets, Buckshot and slug page but there are current discussions on other pages. Is this not a Lee forum?

[missionary5155]

The Lee Loader Forum is the property of Ranch Dog.

[longbow]

Well, there you go then... I learned something today!

And about learning something Ranch Dog put a lot of effort into developing his hard card wad stack for the Lee slugs. It was very generous of him to share the details.

I'm sure the same issues of the wad stack leaving the bore all square to the bore applies to any slug and round balls. I found much better accuracy with 0.735" RB's over a hard card wad column with plastic gas seal over the powder than with a cushion leg or even fiber wad under the ball.

I have some stock Lee slugs and some Brenneke'ized Lee slugs loaded up now over a similar wad stack except I used the plastic gas seal from the wad over the powder.

We'll see how they shoot shortly.

Longbow