45 acp bullet weight...

[Pete44mag]

I have two Kimber .45's, love them both. I have a Master Carry Pro (4") for EDC that I load 185 gr. +P hollow points and a Target Eclipse model that I use for Bullseye with 200 gr. SWC. I use Double Tap 185 gr. factory ammo for carry because of legal reasons in New Yorkistan, and load 200 gr. SWC over 4.0gr. of Titegroup for Bullseye shooting. Both guns and loads work great and are more accurate then me.

[OldBearHair]

Should you get a chance, hold a Bersa Thunder 45 compact in your hand. Heavy, not much barrel jump, and ready for next shot on target.

[johniv]

I cast, 185 gr. 200 gr , 230 gr. and 240gr. 45 boolits. I have no feeding issues with any of them. The 240 gr. is Elmer’s 452423. Guns are Colt series ‘70 or earlier. Most used is the 200 gr. 452460.
FWIW.

[Texas by God]

My most used .45 ACP load is the 200swc(Lee at present) over 5grs of Bullseye. Sometimes a 230 RN or TC over the same charge. Easy Peasy.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Char-Gar]

The 45 ACP round was first designed with a 200 grain bullet, but the Army wanted a 230 grain bullet so thusly the change.

I second the motion for cast bullets. They can be bought much cheaper than jacketed bullets and do indeed wear the barrel far less. I am another guys that has put several hundred thousand rounds of 45 ACP cast bullets through various 1911 pistols without wearing out a barrel.

[Petrol & Powder]

Out of 25 posts there were more than 9 positive comments concerning the lead 200 gr SWC bullet.

I think that's a healthy endorsement.

And Char-Gar is spot on, When John Browning designed the 45 caliber pistol it was originally designed for a 200 grain bullet. The Army wanted a heavier projectile, so that's what they got ! They were paying the bill for the pistol and its development and Mr. Browning was very bright.

[Outpost75]

If you go through the old reports of the chief of ordnance in the National Archives the performance of service revolvers was based upon requirements set by the US Cavalry that they wanted to be able to shoot through a horse broadside at 50 yards and be able to incapacitate an Indian holding onto the saddle, using his horse for cover and shooting back at the trooper. The Colt Walker and Dragoon revolvers firing a .45 ball with 40 grains or more of black powder did that. The .44 American did not.

The .45 Schofield with 230-grain flat-nosed bullet and 28 grains of black powder at 730 fps defined the "minimum performance envelope" which at that time according to Hatcher (1935) was five 7/8" pine boards. When Schofield ammunition was sent to the Phillipine Islands with Colt SAs after the .38 Long Colt proved inadequate the Army was then VERY firmly convinced that a 230-grain .45 bullet was needed and there would be no further discussion on the subject.

While the 28-grain black powder Schofield cartridge only produced about 730 fps, its heavy, blunt-nosed bullet penetrated, delivering the goods and it defined the minimum performance envelope that the Army wanted.

John Browning accepted this and said,

"Yes Sir, Yes Sir,Three Bags Full!" We can give you 800 fps with a 230-grain bullet, would that be sufficent?

And originally with 4.6 grains of Bullseye No. 1, as described in Hatcher's Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers (1935) it was so... Being later revised to 5 grains of Bullseye No.2 which remains true to this day, as current Allliant powder is really VERY little different from that of the WW2 era.

855 +/- 25 fps at 25-1/2 ft. from the test barrel is still a good number, and an M1911 with new barrel will closely approximate that, a 5-1/2" S&W M1917, Colt New Service or Ruger Blackhawk 4-5/8" with cylinder gap at Mean Assembly Tolerance (Pass 0.005"/hold 0.006") will usually meet this spec., but may be closer to the -25 fps tolerance from the mean.

[Harter66]

BCB ,
It looks like you have plenty of data .

I will add that the 1917 I shot with 5.5 Unique with a 45-200 SWC , 452-200 RNFP , 452423 , 429421 (opened to 448 and paper patched) , 454424 and 452-255 RNFP all worked fine and delivered over 800 fps 1000 in a 16" PCC . It's a 45 what more could you ask for ?

I had an XD40 great gun , very utilitarian , 15 rounds , it just fit me , and groups were really not a problem . I drove a 178 gr SWC 980 fps for 4" standing 2 hand groups at 25 yd and would not worry about those loads having made an impression on any target .

I liked the 40 it delivered more of everything the 9mm had and generally the whole light end of 45 ACP was well covered too .

[wl620]

Excellent information Outpost, I always enjoy reading your posts.
I am also a fan of a good 1911 loaded with 200 grain boolits , there is usually one within reach of me at all times. I like the H&G 68 but in my pistols it seems the accuracy edge goes to the lyman 452460, therefore I shoot more of them than anything,it would be easier for me to make the 68 because my mould is a 4 cavity and my 452460 is a 2 cavity but I like the 452460. Currently I am using it with titegroup, and will probably stay with that powder.

[Bazoo]

I can't remember, although I have read on this.

Was the 230 grain bullet adopted in conjunction with the 1911 or after acceptance of the 1911? Or was the 230 grain bullet introduced in the 1905 and just carried over into the 1911?

[BCB]

Thanks for the information…

I did check on the availability of commercial cast boolits and it appears there are plenty to choose from and most won’t break the bank purchasing 500 or a 1000...

Of course I do cast my own, but I seem to have gotten in a bit of a lag with my casting the past year—other things occupying my mind and can’t seem to get into the mood to drop hot lead…

I will be shooting some jacketed bullets also…

Regardless, now I will need to make a decision on which manufacture’s version I will purchase…

Unfortunately, it seems to get adjustable rear sights, one must go to the top-of-the-line expensive models. I do have concern as to where point-of-impact might be once a final load is accepted. Most models seem to have dovetailed sights and I wonder if someone makes after market adjustable rear sights…

I’m still reading this thread so keep posting should other opinions be needed…

Thanks again...BCB

[tazman]

Assuming the pistol is sighted in for 230 grain boolits, the 200 grain boolits will impact a bit lower than point of aim. How much depends on the load.
As far as who to order boolits from, there are many choices out there.
I order plated and full metal jacket from rmrbullets.com. I order cast from two alpha bullets which can be found on facebook. The two alpha company is a small operation, run by a farmer who lives near me(about 50 miles away. He makes good boolits.

[Petrol & Powder]

I can't remember, although I have read on this.

Was the 230 grain bullet adopted in conjunction with the 1911 or after acceptance of the 1911? Or was the 230 grain bullet introduced in the 1905 and just carried over into the 1911?

I've read the answer to that question but it is now buried somewhere in my brain. I believe that by the time the 1911 pattern was presented for trials the 230 grain bullet had already been adopted for that platform. I'll see if I can find a source to confirm that recollection.

OK, here's what my research has found:

Early in 1905, Colt developed a 45 caliber pistol on John Browning's design that utilized a 200 grain, 45 caliber bullet. This became the Colt Browning model of 1905.

In January of 1906, U.S. Brigadier General Crozier invited several suppliers to submit handguns for evaluation. The ammunition for those trials would be supplied by the Ordnance Department and would consist of two types of cartridges. A rimmed revolver cartridge and rimless (referred to as a cannelured shell) pistol cartridge. Both types of cartridges were loaded with the same 230 grain bullet at a velocity of roughly 800 fps (actually expressed as 243 meters per second which is 797 fps). If the inventors submitting handguns wanted cartridges for preliminary testing prior to submitting handguns, they could purchase the ammunition from the Ordnance Department at a cost of $2.86 per hundred cartridges.

Those handgun trials were eventually held in 1907 and the results of those tests narrowed the field of handguns down to 3 types: the Browning 45 caliber pistol, a Colt 45 caliber DA revolver and Savage 45 caliber pistol.

SO - as early as 1907 the bullet weight for the 45 caliber cartridge was fixed at 230 grains. (30 grains heavier than the 200 grain loading the 1905 pistol was designed around)

An improved 1909 model Browning pistol was later submitted and that design was very close to the ultimate 1911 design. There was a 1910 model later submitted and finally the 1911 model was adopted.

It appears the change from a 200 grain loading to the 230 grain loading took place in 1906 and was dictated by the U.S. Military.

[Petrol & Powder]

As for the sights available on 1911 pistols, you're in luck here. There are a LOT of good options on the market.
Honestly, I like the Novak rear sight or some Novak style rear sight, paired with a standard blade front sight. Pick ONE load for the pistol (a H&G #68 style 200 grain SWC sure seems popular hint, hint) and match the front sight height to the POI for that one load.


Find a combination your pistol likes (bullet, powder, etc.) that functions reliably and produces small groups. Once you settle on that, if you need a taller or shorter front sight to match the point of aim with the point of impact you can modify or change the front sight as needed.
Once you get it where you want it - Stop playing with the sights.
The beauty of fixed sights is they are.......well...fixed! They don't move, or get out of adjustment. In a lot of ways fixed sights are superior to adjustable sights.
The only drawback to the Novak style, snag-proof sights, is you can't easily use the rear sight as an aid to rack the side one-handed if needed.
Just my $0.02 worth.

[Bill*B]

230 grains was the weight the Army chose, so I guess it passes muster as "standard" - BUT - I enjoy the lightweights, and shoot more 151 grain cast in my .45 than any other. If I get in a casting mood I may reach for the 185 grain mold, but most of the time I'm lazy enough to just grab a handful of 151 grain commercial out of the box. I load them with the lightest load that will kick the brass out of the pistol. Of course, I'm just punching paper.

[ole_270]

I use a Sig 1911 Stainless Target as my only handgun, Santa doesn't seem to hear my requests for a Blackhawk 45 Colt, don't know if it's being hard of hearing or hard headed. I hadn't had a handgun for close to 40 years until I retired and my shooting shows it. I had the barrel throated by Doug Guy and it feeds anything I feed it so far. I use the Lee #68 and the 200 gr rnfp over HP-638/231 with maybe a slight edge to the #68. Worst thing I've found so far is the #68 is a double cavity mold, need to order a 6 cavity. I've been thinking about that 230TC instead, can't seem to make up my mind which to get. I need to get one coming as cooler casting weather is approaching and I just melted down 32 lbs of the #68 that the alloy turned out to be harder than I was shooting for. Don't want to run out.

[Burnt Fingers]

230 grains was the weight the Army chose, so I guess it passes muster as "standard" - BUT - I enjoy the lightweights, and shoot more 151 grain cast in my .45 than any other. If I get in a casting mood I may reach for the 185 grain mold, but most of the time I'm lazy enough to just grab a handful of 151 grain commercial out of the box. I load them with the lightest load that will kick the brass out of the pistol. Of course, I'm just punching paper.

What is your load for the 151? I have a couple 155-160 SWC molds and I'm always looking for more load data.

[Conditor22]

200gr SWC easiest to fit OAL most barrels
Lee 200 RF also shoots great but is a little temperamental with OAL

I believe the 45 ACP was made to shoot 200 grn boolits BUT the military wanted heavier projectiles.

the Lee 452-228-1R shoot good BUT is a fat boolit and temperamental with loading OAL ie going into battery.
the Lee 452-230-TC and 452-230-2R-TL work much better

I've also had good luck with RCBS 45-230-RN, SAECO 45-225-RN and the LYMAN 452374EV (.452 225 GR RN).

I find that the 45 ACP is one of the easiest pistol rounds to load for.

[Bazoo]

BCB, you said you want adjustable rear sights and that's top of the line guns/price. No sir, top of the line would be Baer, Wilson Combat, Ed Brown, $2000 on the low end. You can get adjustable sights in the $800 range though, That's about where the quality starts. Now, you can get bottom of the barrel where fit finish and quality are just enough for the gun to function; RIA, Remington. Some folks like them but from my experience these cheaper 1911s ain't worth fooling with. Some will say they have one that functions and hits what they aim at, but the fit and finish are sorry.

The Springfield armory range officer has adjustable sights. That's where I'd start looking. It's just one step above the milspec, which is what I have. I prefer 1911 A-1 configuration, but the modern 1911s are still plenty nice. The Kimber custom target II is in the same range and worth a look.

I had a buddy that had a Sig 1911. It had this black finish on it and a squared slide. He couldn't find a holster to fit it. It also gave him trouble with the slide hold open wearing against the finish on the inside of the rails. Basically it would start to fail to lock the slide on an empty mag. Not sure if it was a problem with all Sigs or just his. Sig was not real helpful in resolving the issue, I recall. I think they refused to send a replacement slide stop, and wanted him to send the gun in on his dime. It cost more to send the gun in then to replace the part. He finally traded it off.

[Petrol & Powder]

BCB, as I stated earlier, I don't think adjustable sights are necessary nor are they always desirable. Unless you're jumping around from one load to the next, fixed sights are often a better choice.

If you just will not be happy with fixed sights, there are options for installing adjustable sights on a gun that was originally made with fixed sights. One of the benefits of the 1911 platform is the incredible amount of aftermarket parts available for the platform.
Don't let the inclusion or exclusion of adjustable sights drive your selection of a pistol.