45 acp bullet weight...

[BCB]

Been thinking’ about getting a 45 acp caliber handgun in the 1911 style—not sure which make though…
(Maybe Kimber as I have a Micro 9 and it has performed well, just too small for my hand)

Is the 230 grain FMJ the “standard” bullet profile for that cartridge?…

In all honesty, I will likely only shoot jacketed bullets from it…

Or, would a 40 S&W be a better cartridge?…

Thanks...BCB

[Outpost75]

Nothing wrong with 230-grain bullets from the M1911, but if you are going to do more than punch paper there are lots better bullets than FMJRN.

I would really re-think shooting only jacketed bullets unless you are OK with replacing the barrel in your pistol about every 5-8000 rounds.

If you don't want to cast your own bullets, you can buy good quality cast bullets in bulk and shoot tens of thousands of rounds without shooting out your barrel. Back in my IPSC days I ran nothing but H&G #68 200 grain SWC with 5 grains of Bullseye and was completely satisfied.

These days I shoot lots of .45 ACP in revolvers, and converted lever-guns. The 230-grain rounded flat-nosed "Cowboy" style bullets work fine in the .45 ACP cartridge in both auto pistols and revolvers and give good performance on game. The RCBS 45-230CM and Saeco #954 bullets are typical of the type.

Cast bullets from wheelweights, size .452" in most M1911s, and .454" for the Colt New Service and S&W M1917s and load 5 grains of Bullseye or TiteGroup which will approximate service velocity. Not rocvket science...

The .40 S&W is also a good cartridge, full loads approximate the .38-40 Winchester black powder load.
I load 5 grains of Bullseye also with Accurate 40-182H bullet. Fully adequate for a "Packing Pistol" for general outdoor use.

But the .45 ACP is ubitquitous, brass can be had cheap or for free as range pickup and the .45 ACP accomplishes just about everything you want to do with a handgun.

[wv109323]

The 1911 was originally designed around the 230 g.RN bullet. Or maybe I shouldvsay yhe round and pistol were developed with the 230 RN.
With that said the 200 g. SWC bullet is the most popular amoung reloaders for that cartridge. This bullet is known for its accuracy.
Lately the 185 g.JHP shows promise for accuracy and SD.
The .45 acp is known as an easy cartridge to load for. Manufacturers have made their firearms more acceptable to handle different bullets profiles.
So I think there is not a standard bullet anymore. You may need to tune your pistol to function with the bullet if it is not 230g. RN.

[TNsailorman]

In days past, I shot Combat Pistol matches and I used 200 grain SWC lead bullets with W231 powder . I used 225 grain truncated cone lead bullets for bowling pin matches. I also had a S&W .45acp revolver, Model 25-2, which is what I used in bowling pin matches. I now have a S&W Model 22-4, and it is super slick. Good luck with your .45, james

[tazman]

I have three 1911 pistols in 45acp. One is a Springfield Armory milspec, one is a Sig Tac style, and one is a Springfield Armory Range Officer.
I just had them at the range today, shooting a variety of boolit styles through them and they all performed flawlessly. I shot 2 different 200 grain SWC styles(H&G68 and Lyman 452460), a 200 grain RNFP, a 230 grain RN, and a 230 grain FMJ.
Accuracy was outstanding will all ammo and all guns. With today's choices, it is easy to buy good to great guns and more difficult to buy really bad ones.
I also suggest a 200 grain SWC style boolit for most shooting. They feed in nearly anything, are easy to either cast or buy, shoot accurately and have soft recoil compared to the 230rn.
What is not to like about them?

[Bazoo]

I've got a Springfield armory milspec stainless. I've for about 6k rounds on mine, mostly factory jacketed. I don't think you'll shoot out the barrel with jacketed bullets in less than 10k. Mines very reliable with RN or hp that is close, and with the lee TC. Personally I stick with 230 grain bullets as that's what the guns designed for. If I want to shoot light bullets, I shoot a 38 special.

[35remington]

The 45 in 1911 format works so well with lead bullets that I see no compelling reason to shoot just jacketed bullets. Have you priced a box of jacketed bullets lately or ammo in 45 ACP?

Ouch. Reloading lead bullets seems really pertinent here.

For frequent shooting and mild recoil I use a longnose SWC of HG 68 pattern. Take note the original had a rounded edge to the meplat for good reason. 4 grains of Bullseye, Red Dot or a little more of WST or W231 works well for such use and gets about 800 fps which will cycle pistols with standard weight springs reliably.

For standardization on a single do it all load, Outpost’s recommendation of a 230 RNFP at 820-850 fps will do very well. I like the RCBS 230 Cowboy myself and load it to a smidge longer than 1.200.” For such a blunt bullet it feeds surprisingly smoothly, probably a function of the rounded ogive and the curved leading edge of the meplat, both 1911 friendly features. Rounds so loaded have a very businesslike appearance and the effect seems to follow.

[Walks]

I've shot the H&G 200gr in just about everything. It will feed in an Old Sig 220 that I have and even My Glock 21 with a Wolf aftermarket bbl.
The 230gr RN at Factory Level Loads works in everything.
For Powder Puff Loads I like the discontinued Lyman #452488 over a light charge of Bullseye. But ya gotta get it out past 50ft before it will stabilize enough to cut clean holes in the paper. And it Really needs a 1911 that has a very good Ramp & Throat Job.

My goto Everything bullet has become the Lee #45-230-TC. Over a Fullcharge of Bullseye it's a blast at steel or rolling cans.

It's also become my Cowboy Action bullet for .45Colt. So that 6cav mold gets a workout at just about every Casting session. Lee makes Tumble Lube version too.

If I had too pick a bullet, I'd pick two the; the 230gr TC and the H&G 200gr.

Lyman, Saeco & Lee makes both versions. And RCBS makes the H&G version I use.

Don't forget Accurate Molds too.

[megasupermagnum]

I don't know the entire history on why the military went with 230 grain as their choice, but I do know the 1911 and 45 acp were originally designed around a 200 grain bullet. I'll be the first to admit, I am a heavy bullet guy. In nearly every cartridge a heavier bullet shoots more accurately and just plain works better than lighter. The 45 ACP is probably the only exception I have. Bullets around 200 grains are where I am finding my best results.

[onelight]

The 45 auto is my favorite auto pistol round , easy to load for , good power at low pressure , lots of bullets and data to choose from works well with cast , plated or jacketed .
A great cartridge.

[Petrol & Powder]

BCB - There's nothing "wrong" with the 230 grain bullet and that's the standard bullet weight for a lot of factory loaded FMJ 45 ACP rounds. I've shot a lot of 230 gr bullets out of a 1911 and back when I trained with and carried a 1911, that was my practice load.

However, as others have stated and I'll join, the H&G #68 style bullet, which runs about 200 grains - is a fantastic bullet !
I use the SAECO clone of the H&G 68 which is the flat base SAECO #69. With my alloy it drops from the mold at around 207 grains. It feeds reliably and is very accurate. I'm very happy with that bullet and I highly recommend it.
Enough said about 45ACP bullet weight and style.

In you post you put forth two other issues: Brand of 1911 and the possibility of a chambering in 40 S&W.

I tackle the 40 S&W issue first. Everyone is welcome to their opinion but I'm not a fan of the 40 S&W. It achieves some impressive velocities with bullets not much lighter than most 45 ACP but it accomplishes that with a lot of pressure. I'm well aware of the history behind the 40 S&W and I completely understand its linage but I just never warmed up to it. I have a few pistols chambered in 40 S&W but I rarely load for that cartridge. I wouldn't go out of my way to obtain a 1911 chambered in 40 S&W. The standard single stack 1911 magazine will hold 9 rounds of 40 S&W and that slight increase in capacity over 45 ACP is of no value to me.

Moving onto manufacturer of 1911:

Everyone and their brother makes a 1911 pattern pistol and honestly, many of them are very good. One of the worst 1911 pistols I ever owned came to me new from the Colt Custom Shop. One of the best 1911 pistols I ever owned also had Colt stamped on it but it was made in a different era.
The 1911 has been with us now for over 100 years and it is one of the most refined pistol designs on earth. I don't think the platform holds any secrets these days. So just about any company that wants to build a good 1911 can do so.

If I was going to go out and spend my money on a new 1911 and wanted a solid pistol for the money - I would put the Ruger SR1911 at the top of my list. Ruger incorporates many desirable features in their design: an integral plunger tube that is cast as part of the frame, a lightweight titanium firing to increase safety without that Colt series 80 nonsense, very good sights from the factory and one of the better slide to frame fits in a production pistol.

Everyone has their favorite and that's just my $0.02 worth.

Good Luck

[6bg6ga]

I have a number of 1911's and I shoot bullet weights from 185-230 gr with extreme accuracy. Your not going to wear out a barrel in your lifetime probably shooting jacketed bullets. Either lead or jacketed will be fine in the 1911 and it has plenty of power to stop any intruder is fun to shoot and is economical to shoot.

[Bigslug]

.40 S&W. . .I wouldn't waste any time on it. Law enforcement seems to be concluding that it was an interesting 25 year experiment that, in retrospect, wasn't all that great an idea. 9mm seems to be re-replacing it in all the federal alphabet soup agencies, and local are steadily following.

230 grains at about 830fps is standard medicine with the .45 ACP, and that's mostly what I shoot. 200 grains is a common match load formula that will lower the recoil nicely - - depending on what you're intending to do.

As to brand of 1911. . .the Colt 70 Series (still produced) and the Rock Island Arsenals use true 1911 spec parts.

The Springfield's are ALMOST all GI spec. The only real difference is they use the skinny diameter .38 Super firing pins in all their calibers, so a GI .45 pin won't fit in a Springfield slide.

Series 80's add a pair of levers and a trigger-actuated firing pin blocking safety, and alter the frame, slide, and firing pin accordingly. Colt stamps it on their slides, but it's easy to spot in others - run the slide back and look at the bottom of it. If there's a round plunger on the right side = Series 80

Kimbers with a Roman numeral II behind the model designation copy the Colt Swartz safety briefly used in the late 1930's. That's a firing pin block similar to a Series 80, but actuated by the grip safety instead of the trigger.

Sigs and a few others replace John Browning's internal, leaf-spring style extractor with an external model. Functional enough, but no longer 1911's - at least in THIS reporter's opinion.

[str8wal]

Or, would a 40 S&W be a better cartridge?

Better for what? The 45 ACP and the 1911 go together like PB and J.

[one-eyed fat man]

I feed four Colts, one Smith, and a Thompson submachinegun with a 225 grain truncated cone bullet. Flawless feeding, good accuracy and excellent terminal effect. That truncated cone bullet just flat works! The only gun I do not shoot it in a National Match tuned for soft ball bullseye loads.

[daloper]

I also load the Lyman 452460. That SWC is my go to for my RIA 1911 45 ACP.

[Burnt Fingers]

I cast, load, and shoot .45 ACP boolits from 155 gr to 245 gr. I shoot more 200 gr than anything else. Actually 210 gr as that's what the RCBS 201KT drops.

My goto load is 4.2 gr WST.

[Gray Fox]

Have any of you compared the overall length, bullet weight and velocity of the .45 ACP and the .45 Schofield round? Until the supply chain difficulties made the Army use only the .45 Colt round the Schofield round was preferred by many because of the reduced recoil in the SAA. Just a thought, GF.

[Outpost75]

The .45 Schofield cartridge dates from 1875 when Major George W. Schofield convinced the U.S. Army that the S&W No. 3 top-break’s simultaneous ejection was faster and easier to manage on horseback than the Colt Single-Action Army’s rod ejection.

By 1879 the Army had bought 8289 No. 3 Schofields and also realized that having two different .45 revolver cartridges in its supply system was an awkward complication. So, the Schofield cartridge was adopted as the M1887 for interchangeable use in both Smith & Wesson No.3 top-break and Colt Single-Action Army revolvers. The .45 S&W was loaded commercially until just before WW2.

Keith, in Sixguns (1950) stated, “While many soldiers could shoot the Smith & Wesson better, on account of its lighter recoil, the S&W cartridge was never as good for knocking over a running Indian pony.” None the less, by the late 1880s, the Schofield was the only .45 revolver cartridge being produced for US Army issue. By then, it had gained a reputation as a reliable man-stopper, in the hands of gunmen such as Bill Cody, both the James and Younger gangs, John Wesley Hardin, Pat Garret, and Virgil Earp, among others. In 1902, Colt Single Actions and Schofield ammunition would be sent to the Philippines as a stopgap, after noted failures of the .38 Long Colt, until adoption of Colt’s .45 Double Action Revolver Model of 1909.

Hatcher’s Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers (1935) stated that the .45 Schofield cartridge was loaded with 28 grains of black powder and a 230 grain flat-nosed bullet, producing a muzzle velocity of 730 f.p.s. The performance expected of production ammunition was a mean absolute deviation of 5 inches, with 4 inches of penetration in soft pine, at 50-yards, the range at which Army revolvers were sighted. This standard of accuracy and penetration still represents a useful benchmark to assess what an adequate “service revolver” should do.

The popularity of Cowboy Action Shooting has revived interest in the Schofield cartridge. This is because mild, low-velocity loads are best suited for this sport. Getting acceptable ballistic uniformity when firing bullets of 230 grains or lighter, at velocities less than 700 fps, is challenging, when loading dense, fast-burning, modern smokeless powders in the full-length (1.285”) Colt .45 case, because it was originally designed for black powder and has excessive airspace. Cowboy shooters have discovered that the shorter (1.10”) Schofield case is better for light loads, but they fire short-range events, which don’t require high levels of either power or accuracy.

Schofield load data in popular manuals is for mild “Cowboy Action” loads, rather than being at “full charge” levels required of hunting or service ammunition. A few years ago I fired velocity tests with Alliant Bullseye powder and the Saeco Cowboy bullets, comparing them in a Colt M1909 with 5-1/2” barrel, and Ruger New Model Blackhawk with 4-5/8” barrel. Despite better steel, modern reproductions of the S&W No. 3 revolver probably should not be used with loads exceeding about 700 fps. as they will "pop" open.

Modern smokeless-frame Colt Single-Actions, their clones and the Colt New Service, in sound condition, can handle up to 900 fps with 260-gr. lead bullets or 1000 fps with the lead 230-grainers. Medium-frame Ruger Flat Tops and Vaqueros are strong enough for use with a steady diet of 1000 fps loads with 260-gr. lead bullets, but are NOT recommended for use with so-called “Ruger Only” loads intended for revolvers on the Super Blackhawk frame and the T/C Contenders, which approach or exceed 1100 fps and 25,000 psi. with 250+ grain bullets.

For most of my testing I used the Saeco #954. This traditional ogival-nosed, 230-grain flat-point resembles the original Schofield service bullet and is one with which I have a lot of experience. It is my favorite bullet for use in both the .45 Colt and the .45 ACP in revolvers, rifles and auto pistols. If I were limited to one bullet to use in all of my .45s this one would be “it.”

Only limited tests were fired with the Saeco #955. This 260-grain bullet has the same profile as the 230-grain #954, differing only in width of its base band. I found it less accurate, and simply used up my remaining rounds and loose bullets, because I no longer own that mold.

Revolver accuracy tests were fired at 25 yards, hand-held, off sandbags. Cylinder throat diameters of all three of my Colt New Service revolvers in .455 Eley, .45 ACP and .45 Colt measure .456.” As-cast Saeco bullets cast of wheelweights + 2% tin fit them optimally without sizing. The accuracy results obtained, despite its tiny fixed sights, which are difficult to see well, reflect this. The tighter cylinder gap of the 4-5/8” Ruger revolver (0.006”) produced somewhat higher velocities than the Colt New Service, which has a 5-1/2” barrel, but with a .008” cylinder gap, fairly typical of revolvers made before WW1.

Firing .45 Colt ammunition loaded with unsized .455 bullets in the Ruger, increased group size from 2” or less at 25 yards expected when firing bullets, sized to .452” to fit its cylinder throats, to 2-1/2” to 3" for groups shot with as-cast and unsized bullets. While not enough to impair utility for field shooting, resizing bullets to fit the cylinder throats improves accuracy of .45 Colt ammunition.

When loading ammunition in Schofield brass and crimping bullets in the crimp groove, at 1.40” OAL, sizing bullets to cylinder throat diameter was of no benefit. But when seating bullets out in Schofield brass, and crimping instead in the lubricating groove, at 1.55” overall length, grouping improved when bullets were properly sized to fit the cylinder throats.

Best accuracy was obtained in the Ruger revolver when bullets were resized from their as-cast diameter of .455 down to .452” in a Lee push-through sizing die. While sizing as much as 0.003” is not ideal, test results clearly illustrate the importance of sizing bullets to fit the cylinder throats, rather than to barrel groove diameter (which was .4505” in the Ruger vs. .453” for the Colt). Further improvement may be possible in Ruger revolvers using bullets from a mold which casts smaller.

It is best that molds drop bullets at correct diameter, so as to not require sizing at all. Sizing bullets to .454” to attempt a compromise diameter fit for use in both revolvers was of no benefit, compared to firing loading bullets as-cast and unsized. Cylinder leading severe enough to cause resistance to chambering .45 Colt ammunition was noted after firing 100 or more Schofield loads in the longer .45 Colt chamber. Changing bullet lube from Lee Liquid Alox to SPG helped mitigate the crud ring, but didn't eliminate it entirely. Seating bullets out in Schofield brass to an overall cartridge length of 1.55” improved accuracy, but did not mitigate the chamber leading with either LLA or SPG lube. Removal of these lead deposits required VIGOROUS scrubbing with Kano Kroil on a .410 shotgun brush.

If One-Inch-Per-Ten (Yards) revolver accuracy is important, the Schofield cartridge is less accurate than .45 Colt ammunition assembled with the same bullet, at all velocity levels tested. Bullseye powder gives quite acceptable ballistic uniformity and accuracy in .45 Colt brass, even with reduced charges down to 700 fps with 230-grain bullets, using 5.5 grains of Bullseye. The advantages of Schofield brass are in being able to visually identify low-recoil Cowboy loads, and for nostalgia. Schofield loads provide adequate accuracy for close range Cpowboy action and plinking steel targets, but are best reserved for that purpose.

The .45 Colt is still best for any serious use where power and accuracy are important. Schofield loads tend to be less accurate than .45 Colt also unless you seat bullets out to 1.55" Ctg. OAL.

A charge of 4.5 grains of Bullseye in Schofield brass with the 230-grain Saeco #954 bullet approximates service velocity at 1.40" Ctg. OAL.

If you seat bullets out and crimp in the lube groove at 1.55" OAL in Schofield brass the powder charge should be increased to 5.5 grains for best accuracy and this level not exceeded. The same 5.5 grain charge of Bullseye is the minimum recommended for use in .45 Colt (1.285") length brass at 1.59" Ctg. OAL with either 230-grain Saeco #954 or 260-grain #955 bullets. Lighter charges produce erratic velocity and poor accuracy in .45 Colt brass.

In .45 Colt brass a full-charge load with the Saeco #954 230-grain bullet at 1.59" OAL is 7.5 grains of Bullseye.

In .45 Colt brass a full-charge load with the Saeco #955 260-grain bullet at 1.59" OAL is 6.5 grains of Bullseye.

[osteodoc08]

There is no reason to limit yourself to jacketed. If strictly range use, I’d look at the tried and true 200gr SWC H&G 68. Load it up with W231 and you’ll have a smooth operator.

There are sales, particularly around the holidays, there you can get a basic Kimber in 45 Target version for a song. I recommend target sights if all range work. The Kimber Grand Raptor is also nice if you want a little more pizzaz, but if spending that much, I’d recommend a Les Baer.

Head on over to GB or even Davidson’s and price shop.