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Thread: Is this Ok

  1. #1

    Is this Ok

    So I have a Sharps and Hankins carbine. I would like to get it shooting. The bore is a little rough, but I have seen rougher barrel shoot well. It has been modified a long time ago to center fire.

    On the bottom of the barrel it is stamped .44. The barrel is almost a .46.
    I have slugged it and the lands measure about .458. The grooves measure about .460

    The chamber casts a loose .45 colt.

    I want to try using my .45-70 mold which drops at .458/.459. At this point, I am too cheap to buy a custom mold for a untried barrel.

    So I casted several bullets with a soft alloy given to me by a friend. A ten bullet average was 333 grains.

    With 30 grains of Goex 2F and a over powder wad and a little compression I can seat to the crimp groove.

    With 35 grains of Goex 2F and a over powder wad and a little compression I can seat to just past the lower lube groove.

    Is it ok to seat a bullet out this far (see picture). All bullets camber and the action closes.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I tried shooting a .452 250 gr bullet (35 grains 2F Goex over powder card with compression) with dismal results.

    Thanks in advance.

    Lost

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
    bigted's Avatar
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    Not familiar with your rifle. Also is the chamber set up for 45 Colt for sure? Could it be a short 45-70 case 45-60ish.

    Reason I ask is that the 45 Colt is significantly smaller when loading a .458 diameter boolit. Probably split cases like mad.

    But you say you shot some .452's in the Colt cases ... correct? Did your cases split on them?

    As for your boolit seated out ... the only thing would be a problem with seating them out so far is that the lube would be easy to get contaminated with dirt before shooting.

    As long as the chamber is just as long as the Colt case ... then all should be fine. If it is longer then the Colt case ... the boolit will probably expand into the space ahead of the case mouth and lead the heck outta your barrel.

    Be interested in seeing pictures of your carbine
    WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE...MORE WILL BE SAID THEN DONE

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Measure the rim cuts depth. ( this is the headspace) ten match this to a 45 colt rim and a 45-70 rim thickness. 45 colt cases are also thinner walled than the 45-70. You may need to cut 45-70s down in length and ream to size for this rifle.

  4. #4
    I casted the chamber. A little bigger than .45 colt in diameter (.482) also about 1/8 of an inch longer.

    Head space is tight on a .45 colt.

    Tried a .45-70 case, too big at the base

    Originally they were chamber in .54-45-450 rimfire. (caliber, weight of powder, weight of bullet). There were experimental models in .45-45 (caliber, weight of powder). Could mine be one of those possibly but unlikely

    After the Civil War many were converted to center fire, calibers changed and some made into shotguns. I have looked for signs of sleeving down to .45, but didn't see anything. But that doesn't mean much.

    I have fired it with .452 bullets in .45 Colt cases with 35 grains of black powder. No splitting of the neck. no weird bulges or lines. Just poor accuracy.

    As for lubing, I thought I would lube right before going to the range. Trying to avoid dust and dirt in the lube.

  5. #5
    Hello Lostinidaho,

    How about using a .454 Casull case?
    About .100" longer and Rim is .003" thinner.

    AntiqueSledMan.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lostinidaho View Post
    So I have a Sharps and Hankins carbine. I would like to get it shooting. The bore is a little rough, but I have seen rougher barrel shoot well. It has been modified a long time ago to center fire.

    On the bottom of the barrel it is stamped .44. The barrel is almost a .46.
    I have slugged it and the lands measure about .458. The grooves measure about .460

    The chamber casts a loose .45 colt.

    I want to try using my .45-70 mold which drops at .458/.459. At this point, I am too cheap to buy a custom mold for a untried barrel.

    So I casted several bullets with a soft alloy given to me by a friend. A ten bullet average was 333 grains.

    With 30 grains of Goex 2F and a over powder wad and a little compression I can seat to the crimp groove.

    With 35 grains of Goex 2F and a over powder wad and a little compression I can seat to just past the lower lube groove.

    Is it ok to seat a bullet out this far (see picture). All bullets camber and the action closes.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Bullets.jpg 
Views:	36 
Size:	69.4 KB 
ID:	247003

    I tried shooting a .452 250 gr bullet (35 grains 2F Goex over powder card with compression) with dismal results.

    Thanks in advance.

    Lost
    You what???
    Has 0.001 deep rifling?
    Thats about 50% of what Marlin used for the microgroove barrels, and that with 12-16 grooves and for smokerless only.

  7. #7
    17Nut
    It is a three groove rifling design so it hard to get consistent measurements. I remeasured the slug lead ball and get .463 at some points

    Antique Sled Man
    I like the idea of using a .454 Casull brass. I have spent hours looking in Cartridges of the World looking at case dimensions for the future. if I can get it to shoot with reasonable accuracy.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
    Markopolo's Avatar
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    what about a nice hollow base boolit once you get the oal down? something like the 445599 would prolly fill the bore nicely?
    Any technology not understood, can seem like Magic!!!

    I will love the Lord with all my heart, all my soul, and all my mind.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master



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    Lostinidaho:

    If this rifle was an original rim fire, you might need to use a "heeled" bullet to get it to shoot well. A heeled bullet will have a rebated base section that will seat in your .45 Colt case but a larger nose section that is groove diameter. See if you can find specifications on the .46 Remington rim fire cartridge. Your measurements seem pretty close to it.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    If you get the dimensions of a heeled boolit , I betcha Tom at "Accurate Molds" would either have one in his inventory or would build a mold that is exact to your needed spec's.

    I have had Tom build me three new spec molds and have purchased a few more ... the price is the same for a new spec mold or one already in his inventory. All my molds from him cast perfectly.
    WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE...MORE WILL BE SAID THEN DONE

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy
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    Try asking the guys on the N-SSA forum,I'm sure some there have experience with the S&H.
    https://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/forum.php

  12. #12
    I went to the range today. The 35 grain powder loads were pretty good (5 out of 6 ringed a 9" steel plate at 75 yards). The sights are very small. Will have to fix that.

    Curator and BigTed
    A heeled bullet might be the way to go, thanks for the heads up on the .46 Remington Rimfire bullet.
    Accurate Molds seems to have endless designs to look through.
    Last edited by Lostinidaho; 08-24-2019 at 10:21 PM.

  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master

    Wayne Smith's Avatar
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    For all things heeled boolits give Bernie at Old West Bullet Molds a call.
    Wayne the Shrink

    There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!

  14. #14
    Bernie is great to work with. I have bought a mold and a crimp die from Bernie. I looked at his web site, but didn't see anything. I will send him an email.

  15. #15
    Hello Lostinidaho,

    What was the case diameter after shooting, both outside & inside?

    AntiqueSledMan.

  16. #16
    Mouth Diameter .483 O.D., .459 I.D.
    Base Diameter .475 O.D.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
    bigted's Avatar
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    Am following along here ... is your OD diameters correct?

    .483 O.D. with a base diameter of .475 O. D. ? How did you eject your case with the mouth being .008 inch larger then the base ... or is your .475 base .008 smaller then the chamber mouth?
    WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE...MORE WILL BE SAID THEN DONE

  18. #18
    Hey Ted,

    It's called expansion. You get a similar case when you form a 41 Colt from a 38 Special.
    The base is solid & doesn't expand like the rest of the case.

    AntiqueSledMan.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
    bigted's Avatar
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    Yes thanks, my point is that if the chamber mouth is also .483, then maybe a case of this dimension could give better service.

    The 45 Colt case is spose to be .480+ and this should be the base measurement. Then that .483 makes sense and if the internal dimension is .459, then a soft lead .459 projectile should be what that chamber is asking for.

    Anyhoo ... just thinkin n typing is all
    WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE...MORE WILL BE SAID THEN DONE

  20. #20
    Hey Ted,

    Now you got me thinking, so I just grabbed a handful of Starline 45 Colts. These have not been shot but I full length sized them prior to loading, you can see about 3/16" on base which wasn't touched by sizing die. They measure .474" to .475" at base. I'm guessing but I think the expansion would start about at that point on the case. This looks like an interesting project and I hope Lostinidaho gets it figured out.

    Lostinidaho,

    I was looking over on CastPics.net, under "Information about Moulds", Subcategories "Modifying Molds", check out Beagling & Mold Lapping. Lots of interesting stuff there. Also if interested see my pdf on how I loaded the 44 Colt Original, https://1858remington.com/index.php?topic=8675.0

    AntiqueSledMan.
    Last edited by AntiqueSledMan; 09-03-2019 at 09:55 AM.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check