+P loads in 45 ACP Delisle Carbines??

[mickbr]

Gents wondered if anyone knows whether its possible or has seen reports of people running +P loads( 23,000PSI) or even toward 45 super levels(28,000PSI) in the delisle carbines?

Some of the enfield to 45 conversions have the barrel supported by the action making full use of enfield pressures, however the orginals I believe have the barrel set back into the action somehow and I assume this is a less strong set up?

I'm not looking to create a 44 magnum out of one, but would be interesting to know at least whether +P would be okay if I get one built.

[Lloyd Smale]

I don't think id do it. There forte is sub sonic quiet. Why take a chance on screwing up a rare gun.

[DougGuy]

^^ Agreed.. For what purpose do you need +p loads in this rifle?

[Outpost75]

I have shot .45 ACP+P factory LE loads in my H&R .45 ACP/.455 Bunny Gun which John Taylor did. Supersonic rifle loads are louder, less pleasant and less accurate than the light, subsonic blooper loads.

I did it only for academic curiosity.

The most satisfaction for me has been in seeing how low in velocity I could go, to have the rounds get out the barrel reliably every time, the lower limit being about 700 fps with a soft lead, lubricated bullet, being almost like a large-caliber air rifle with the bullet hitting the steel gong at 100 yards to making more noise than the "pop!" of the gun going off. My favorite recipe is Accurate 45-264D with 3.5 grains of Bullseye which gets about 790 fps from a 20-inch barrel and shoots 3-4" ten-shot groups at 100 yards with iron sights. The 265-grain Webley hollowbase bullet also shoots well with 5 grains of Unique.

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[Larry Gibson]

Been a while since I've seen pictures of a Delisle Carbine so can't say for certain let alone know of anyone that actually has one to shoot(?).

As mentioned it is made for suppressing standard 45 ACP ammunition. The highest pressure factory 45 ACP I've tested is the Hornady Critical Defense at 22,000 psi. Out of my 16" Rhineland M98 conversion it runs right at 1100 fps. I've loaded some 45 ACP up to +P that maintains less than 1100 fps. I've also loaded some upwards of 28,000 psi with 200 gr XTPs and 140 gr cast GC's bullets which pushed 1400+ fps out of the 16" barrel. Those are measured psi's as measured with the Oehler M43 PBL using a Contender test barrel.

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[curator]

The Rhineland "DeLisles" Are not an exact replica of the original. The Lee Enfield action is certainly strong enough for +P .45ACP pressures, but standard .45ACP brass could be the weak link. I have a Rhineland .45ACP Enfield conversion (not suppressed) and do load at +P or even +P+ pressures but use .45 Super cases (or shortened .460 Rowland cases) to be on the safe side. They are thicker in the web area and rated for 28,000 psi. I believe S.I.A. made .45 Enfield conversion in .460 Rowland at one time.

[mickbr]

yes the special interest and similar enfield conversions yes can run all the way past 30,000 PSI. 45 Super brass made by starline is the same as 45ACP chamber and same pressure capable as their 460 rowland brass( according to starline, 48,000PSI). For the record the 45 super/rowland guys tested regular ACP and it is also capable of higher than normal pressures ,where the action is strong enough.

I'm not looking to do it to an original rifle, would be getting a modern reproduction done. The question was the strength of the relative conversion type. Seems to be two groups, the rhineland/special interest type. Then the more original type where the barrel is set back into the action and presumably not as supported. The comparitive strength is what I was after.

As to why run it harder, same reason we run anything harder- at times it would be use it to go faster and kill better. No difference from choosing a 22LR stinger over standard velocity when it suits, or any one of another 25 million examples

[Bigslug]

If you're doing all the paperwork and expense on a suppressed weapon, I guess my first question is what are your goals?

If you're building a historically correct Delisle replica, that suppressor design wasn't really the most advanced, sturdily-constructed, or easily-maintained thing out there - - they were cooked up for 830fps hardball, and that's probably the best thing for it. Modern suppressor guts in a Delisle shell would likely be the better call.

As others have stated, the .45ACP brass and how it interfaces with a Lee-Enfield action (that I don't know) is probably a bigger limitation than the Lee-Enfield action itself.

If you're more after a way to produce maximum thump from a suppressed carbine, I'd forget about .45ACP and Delisles entirely and start working on SBR and suppressor paperwork for either a Marlin .44 Mag or .45 Colt lever gun with magazine shortened accordingly, or a Ruger 77/44 and start tinkering with 300+ grain bullets at high, but still subsonic speeds.

[Larry Gibson]

The weak point in 45 ACP brass when using higher pressured loads is the unsupported part of the case web when fired in a semi-auto pistol with a feed ramp separate from the barrel......like in a M1911. Conversely in revolvers and single shots where the case web area is fully supported by the chambers the standard case can be loaded to higher psi's w/o any problems. In the SMLE and M98 Rhineland conversions the case web areas are also completely supported. Also the pressure has completely dropped before extraction.

I have encountered no problems at the higher pressures using standard military and commercial brass in either the Rhineland conversion or the Contender with the higher pressure loads mentioned previously. The cases exhibit no undue stress with such loads. The "heavier" cases with thicker webs only cuts down on case capacity. The fact is case capacity is the real limiting factor to loading the 45 ACP to higher levels with slower burning powders to increase velocity.

[Multigunner]

Academic I guess but the best silenced bolt action shoulder gun in .45 ACP I know of was one marketed for police counter sniper use.
IIRC They took a .44 Magnum Remington model 788 receiver and fitted a .308/243 bolt body to it.
The Suppressor can was full length and of not very large diameter.
The rifle looked like a bull barrel varmint rifle.
Don't know how well these sold, if at all.

There were Nam era experiments with a shortened .458 cartridge case loaded with .500 grain .45-70 FMJ bullets. Subsonic loads of course.
Even subsonic that 500 gr bullet would have one heck of an impact. No getting up from that if a solid hit.

[mickbr]

If you're doing all the paperwork and expense on a suppressed weapon, I guess my first question is what are your goals?

If you're building a historically correct Delisle replica, that suppressor design wasn't really the most advanced, sturdily-constructed, or easily-maintained thing out there - - they were cooked up for 830fps hardball, and that's probably the best thing for it. Modern suppressor guts in a Delisle shell would likely be the better call.

As others have stated, the .45ACP brass and how it interfaces with a Lee-Enfield action (that I don't know) is probably a bigger limitation than the Lee-Enfield action itself.

If you're more after a way to produce maximum thump from a suppressed carbine, I'd forget about .45ACP and Delisles entirely and start working on SBR and suppressor paperwork for either a Marlin .44 Mag or .45 Colt lever gun with magazine shortened accordingly, or a Ruger 77/44 and start tinkering with 300+ grain bullets at high, but still subsonic speeds.

My goals are to know the pressure ratings of the deslisle action setup.Its a specific action strength question, not a firearm suggestion. I have plenty of lever guns btw. For the record I'd probably look at a sporter barrel on the action, not the suppressor setup.


So again breaking it down:

1. Lee- enfield barrel supported conversion type(most of the modern repro's), pressure rating as larry says, pretty high.

2.Lee enfield barrel unsupported delisle conversion type( set back into reciever? shorter bolt I believe?), pressure rating= unknown.

I am thinking it has to have more metal around everything important than a S/Auto pistol. I might put the question to the gunsmiths I know