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Thread: Period correct cartridge conversions for C&B revolvers?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
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    Period correct cartridge conversions for C&B revolvers?

    I was watching Pale Rider with Clint Eastwood. Good Movie!
    His 1858's are both converted to cartridges. I know these days they offer some cartridge conversions with a cylinder plate with firing pins to replace the nipples. His are open cartridges like modern revolvers... Did they offer anything like this back in the day? Its possible...

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    If the movies is based on 1871 or latter then it's period correct.

    Todays versions are to get around laws dealing with the manufacture of a cartridge firearm without a license. They did not have that issue back in the day. Todays modern replicas of the original design started life as a regulated cartridge firearm and need to go thru an FFL. CB revolvers don't require an FFL in the states.

    http://www.sixgun-forums.com/sixguns...ge-conversions

    "The original Colt Cartridge Conversions built mostly on 1851 Navy .36s and 1860 Army .44s were for the .38 Long Colt and .44 Colt, rounds that used a heel type bullet, that is a bullet whose base was smaller in diameter than the rest of the bullet. This resulted in a bullet that was the same diameter as the outside of the case much like today's .22 Rimfire rounds. One has to stand in awe of the genius of the gun makers of 150 years ago when these Cartridge Conversions are examined. The cylinders had to be altered or replaced by a cylinder with a loading gate and new breech face and a rear sight built into the top. Quite often, instead of being done by the factory, conversions were performed by the local gunsmith or blacksmith, and they did it routinely without electricity or modern machinery. A forge and a file was basically all they had.

    Charles Richards was an assistant factory superintendent at Colt and was awarded three major patents for breech loading firearms including the Richards Conversion in 1871. Existing cap and ball cylinders were cut off at the back to allow the installation of a conversion ring that would accept cartridges: "My invention relates to that kind of revolver which has a chambered breech or cylinder. It has for its object to provide a compact and cheap form of this kind of arm, which shall be fitted for the convenient use of a flanged metallic cartridge, and it is particularly useful as furnishing a means of converting of a revolver constructed and intended for loose ammunition into one adapted for that kind of metallic cartridges which are loaded into the chambers from the rear." To complete the conversion, the rammer for seating round balls over the powder charge was removed from beneath the barrel of an 1860 Army and replaced by an ejector rod and housing on the right side for removing spent cartridges. A loading gate at the rear of the cylinder swung open for loading and unloading. Many 1860 Army Models were returned to the factory to be converted both from civilians and the U.S. Army, and others were produced as new sixguns at the factory. Among the various conversions, First Model Richards Conversions are recognized by the rear sight on the conversion ring and an ejector rod housing that stops about one inch in front of the face of the cylinder. With the arrival of the Second Model Richards conversions, the conversion ring, hammer, and loading gate were all improved, and the rear sight was moved from the top of the conversion ring back to the V-notch cut in the hammer as found in the original 1860 Army cap and ball revolvers. The Richards Conversion was about to become the Richards-Mason Conversion. William Mason was superintendent of the armory at Colt from the mid-1860s until the early 1880s when he moved over to Winchester. He would be responsible for the improvements on the Richards Conversion, the 1871-72 Open-Top, and of course the Colt Single Action Army.

    While Richards Conversions were obviously alterations on 1860 Army Models, the Richards-Mason provided a completely new barrel with a provision for a longer ejector rod housing. They are easily distinguished from the Richards Conversions by the web shape under the barrel, as it is boxier with a completely different profile, and most importantly, the Richards-Mason Conversion has a regular cylinder with no conversion ring. For more in depth information about Colt and Remington Conversions, I highly recommend “A Study of Colt Conversions” by R. Bruce McDowell, Krause Publications, 1997. It is an invaluable resource for anyone interested in old Colts.

    The one drawback to the Richards-Mason Conversion compared to the First Model Richards is the placement of the rear sight. Without the conversion ring, the rear sight could not be mounted there so the less desirable path of placing it back on the hammer was taken. When Mason re-designed the Richards-Mason Conversion to become the 1871-72 Open-Top, the rear sight was placed upon the barrel, and when the U.S. Army nudged him into coming up with something better after the Army trials of 1872, the result was the Colt Single Action with a Remington-style top strap and the hog wallow rear sight that could not get out of alignment."

    Colt Richards Conversion 1860 Army The video is excellent
    https://www.forgottenweapons.com/ria...ion-1860-army/

    Modern replica

    https://www.gunblast.com/Cimarron_Conversion.htm

    https://www.cimarron-firearms.com/pr...son-army.html/

    https://www.ubertireplicas.com/produ...ds-mason-navy/

    https://www.taylorsfirearms.com/hand...-revolver.html

    Last edited by M-Tecs; 08-19-2019 at 04:24 AM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

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    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

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    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

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    A LGS has one in 38 long Colt.

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    The movie contains few references to its own time setting but there are some clues. In one line of dialog it is said that LaHood arrived in 54 or 55 (1854, 1855), the movie is clearly set after those dates. The northern California gold strikes occur in 1851 and the settings in the mountains and reference the Sacramento River also place this movie some time after 1851.
    Hydraulic mining, as displayed in the movie, occurred a bit later but continued well into the 1870's. This fact tends to place the movie considerably post civil war. Hollywood is never real good at keeping settings true to time frames but the implication is the movie is set slightly post civil war. There's at least one 1873 Colt seen along with the older cartridge conversation but Hollywood makes those errors all the time.

    I've watched that movie several times and I've never been able to nail down an exact date the movie is set in. Of course considering the mysterious nature of the origin of the main character, that may be part of the plot !

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    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
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    So technically a cylinder with slots for the rims could be machined, and it would probably work like a modern revolver, including a firing pin modification on the hammer?

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    Wow, I didn't realize that because I can't shoot outdoors in my county but can shoot at an indoor range 5 mins from my house that I would be "skirting the law" by converting my Dragoons to shoot cartridges!! Who woulda known?!! Kirst sells a legal product that I can legally buy that allows me to convert (make my own firearm (legally)) which I'm allowed to do. Nobody offers a converted Dragoon from the factory so what are we to do? Well, I did exactly as I could . . . only to find out that it's "skirting the law" (in some folks eyes) and for the real kicker, the tag line is the 2nd amendment with a highlighted "shall not be infringed"! Huh?
    I find it a little amazing that todays conversions are made to " get around the law" . . .

    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by 45 Dragoon View Post
    Wow, I didn't realize that because I can't shoot outdoors in my county but can shoot at an indoor range 5 mins from my house that I would be "skirting the law" by converting my Dragoons to shoot cartridges!! Who woulda known?!! Kirst sells a legal product that I can legally buy that allows me to convert (make my own firearm (legally)) which I'm allowed to do. Nobody offers a converted Dragoon from the factory so what are we to do? Well, I did exactly as I could . . . only to find out that it's "skirting the law" (in some folks eyes) and for the real kicker, the tag line is the 2nd amendment with a highlighted "shall not be infringed"! Huh?
    I find it a little amazing that todays conversions are made to " get around the law" . . .

    Mike
    Do you really thing the design of the current non machining required cartridge converters is the best design??????? No they are designed that way to be legal for use with non-regulated CB revolvers. History has shown that designs like the Richards-Mason Conversion are superior for function thus the popularity back in the day. Yes it's perfectly legal on a federal level for an individual to do a Richards-Mason Conversion to their own revolver for their own use. If you do that type of conversion for sale it becomes a regulated FFL required firearm.

    https://www.taylorsfirearms.com/hand...cylinders.html

    "This conversion cylinder converts Uberti 1st,2nd, & 3rd models and Whitneyville Dragoon revolvers from .44 black powder to .45LC/.45Schofield smokeless ammunition. No frame modification is needed, although minor fitting may be required due to gun manufacturer variations. Cylinders ship separate from firearms purchases. "

    If they shipped together the non-regulated CB revolver becomes a regulated firearm.

    Same for these and they are a better design much more period correct. Do 100% of the conversion machining yourself 100% legal. Do the machining of others and it becomes and FFL item

    https://kirstkonverter.com/colt-walker-dragoons.html

    https://kirstkonverter.com/kirst-pdfs/SafetyWarnt.pdf

    Kirst’s Cartridge Konverter is not a firearm according to provisions of 18 United States Code Chapter 44, Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 178. Installing a Kirst Cartridge Konverter® into a percussion revolver creates a firearm subject to those provisions, however under Federal law; an individual who is not prohibited from possessing firearms can lawfully install the Cartridge Konverter™ in a percussion revolver for the personal use of that individual.

    Once converted it becomes a homemade firearm. Selling it with the conversion has it's own set of regulations.

    https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.co...her-person.htm

    I have my own machine shop and I wish I could legally machine loading grooves in frames for others.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 08-20-2019 at 06:54 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

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    I see, so it's a convience thing.

    As to your question about the current design, yes, I think Kirst makes a very nice gated conversion for Open Top revolvers. They may or may not be a perfect "drop in" conversion but they can be "fitted" and the whole package work every bit as well as any $2,000.00 S.A. on the market. That's what mine are like and they perform as one would expect that sort of revolver to. The Remington drop cyl style conversions (such as the Howell conversion) are quite close to what Remington offered as a conversion back in the day (a no machining operation . . . back then!)
    I've personally been working on a gated conversion for Ruger Old Armys which would allow a .45 acp cyl, .45C cyl and have the ability to shoot "Ruger only" loads and it has absolutely nothing to do with "getting around the law". It has everything to do with making a profit and offering something a certain segment of the population (those with money) see value in. I'm pretty sure Walt Kirst, Kenny Howell were also thinking along the same line . . . definitely NOT " getting around the law". (Must have worked, they've sold a bunch!!!)

    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by 45 Dragoon View Post
    I've personally been working on a gated conversion for Ruger Old Armys which would allow a .45 acp cyl, .45C cyl and have the ability to shoot "Ruger only" loads and it has absolutely nothing to do with "getting around the law". It has everything to do with making a profit and offering something a certain segment of the population (those with money) see value in.
    If your conversion requires machining and you do the machining for the costumer you will need a 07 manufacture license.

    Quote Originally Posted by 45 Dragoon View Post
    I'm pretty sure Walt Kirst, Kenny Howell were also thinking along the same line . . . definitely NOT " getting around the law". (Must have worked, they've sold a bunch!!!)
    If various laws were not in place my guess is they would have preferred to offer straight Richards-Mason Conversions or 1871-72 Colt open top style conversions as an option. Maybe not since these are one way conversions. Back in the day they was little if any demand to switch back to percussion.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 08-20-2019 at 10:47 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

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    Ooooh Kaaaay . . . have a good day M-Tecs . . . .








    Mike

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    Back in the late 80's or early 90's Walt Kirst and I both lived in Fridley MN. From his own lips not needing an FFL was an important design criteria. Never thought to ask him how the design would have been affected if the FFL requirement was not an issue but it did influence the design. I call that a work around. Not saying that influence was good or bad but it was an influence in the finial design.

    On a side note Minnesota has a surprising amount of firearm designers.

    Dan Coonan - shot his prototype 357 at the Burnsville range in the 80's

    Magnum Research was a MN company until Kahr purchased then. They had a Fridley office that I stopped into a couple of times but never got to know them. Coworker worked on the original Desert Eagle design before it was sent to IMI.

    Boberg Arms is out of White Bear Lake, MN. His design was purchased by Bond Arms. Friend of mine did some work for them. Interesting design https://www.bondarms.com/bond-arms-h...-arms-bullpup/

    http://www.jpfirearmsmn.com/ is also a MN company. The owner JP had Lloyd's Gun Shop until it was robbed and two employees killed.

    JP was in on the ground floor of DPMS before it was a firearm manufacture and yes DPMS was another MN based firearms company until it was sold.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 08-20-2019 at 10:58 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

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    I'm sure the "work around" had more to do with the simplicity for the end user which would translate to more sales. Getting an FFL or a smith involved at either end is counter to max units sold. What I meant was I don't think Walt or Ken were deviant in their actions. I took your comments to mean you don't think folks should have them . . .

    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by 45 Dragoon View Post
    I'm sure the "work around" had more to do with the simplicity for the end user which would translate to more sales. Getting an FFL or a smith involved at either end is counter to max units sold. What I meant was I don't think Walt or Ken were deviant in their actions.

    That is correct on both counts. My intent was that some aspects of the current designs are a work around for legal reasons and not necessarily function. All of the current designs have a basis in history so we have an actual historical perspective on what the most workable designs are. The Richards-Mason, Colt 1871-72 and 1873 type conversions were clearly the winner back in the day for that type of pistol.

    In todays legal reality conversions like the Richards-Mason design would require anyone doing this conversion for sale be licensed as a manufacturer and the converted pistol falls under normal FFL requirements.

    Savage found other that is not very profitable with the original Henry Ball designed ML10 smokeless muzzloader. It was based on a centerfire action and required an FFL transfer. I own both the ML10 and the ML10II and I much prefer the original. The ML10II was a work around so it would be classed as a non-regulated firearm.

    Smokeless muzzleloaders are a work around to get maximum performance for muzzleloading hunting season. They have no other justification for existing. I own them and build them since they fill a niche that is legal and their is a demand for them. That being said if I made the rules muzzleloading hunting seasons would be period correct firearms only.

    Quote Originally Posted by 45 Dragoon View Post
    What I meant was I don't think Walt or Ken were deviant in their actions. I took your comments to mean you don't think folks should have them . . .
    Not what I meant. I don't think the NFA of 1934 or the GCA of 1968 are Constitional much less any of the current **** laws we have.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 08-21-2019 at 02:10 AM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

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