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Thread: Where do they come from?

  1. #21
    Boolit Master Traffer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traffer View Post
    It is amazing to me how ignorant the "common person" is nowadays. What we call "Western Civilization" has come about by the study and adherence to a book called "The Bible". Society in the "west" FORMED as a CONSEQUENCE of people seeking God in the Bible. You can argue that but you would be wrong.
    And in the Bible the chronicle of people who sought God shows that a cycle of "society" is at work. People turn to God and seek him when things get really really bad (instances where people end up eating their own children come to mind). God blesses society when they seek him. They prosper and drift away from God again...until things get really ugly...then the cycle of turning back to God begins again. Psalm 107 is a good example of this. It is only applicable to the "people of God" though. Those who would never turn to God simply perish, like chaff they are blown away into the wind.
    The present unraveling of our civilization is another example of people turning away from God.
    Personally I don't want to see it get to the point of where mothers cook and eat their own children. But it will. Unless those of us who still believe start to do something about it.
    I guess nobody believes this anymore. Sad

  2. #22
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    Our morals ultimately come from the same place God comes from...
    Our very humanity.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKShootist View Post
    Some (not I) might call that progress. And ought I mention California?



    No empire lasts forever. The Romans proved that. But, for a while, the UK could say that the sun never sets on the British Empire. I'm not certain that any other nation has ever been able to make that claim. But, of course, you were not aware of that.



    Oh please, not that old saw again. Do you consider that a rearguard prepared to fight to the last man is 'bailed out' by a relief force? I will never impugn in any way the valour of those American service men who fought like lions and died bravely doing their duty. But, your politicians, that's another matter. We knew you would be along when they had squeezed the last drop of money they could from us. It was inevitable. And before you reply you might consider that if the UK had merged with the Germans, as Hitler had hoped, then with our navy and their army, plus a bit better timing from the Japanese in respect of the US navy's aircraft carriers and it's likely that the USA would have ended up a subject nation of some God-awful Axis partnership. Please do not judge the last two world wars by Hollywood's productions. The British were there, and did quite a bit of fighting.

    I might ask what success the USA had with wars after 1945. Korea? Hmmmm.... still not exactly settled. Vietnam? I just plain shouldn't mention that one. A real asskicking by men in sandals with clapped out guns. And bringing peace to the Middle East? And, in all those disagreements, the USA actively sought the support of the UK. I sometimes wonder why if we were so useless. But, all that is for another thread I think.



    Churchill was merely stating the obvious. I suspect that in different circumstances he might have said the same about the Russians who were the real force behind the final defeat of Germany. My ego is not so weak that I cannot recognise that a richer neighbour with far more resources is likely to be a useful ally? We fought one of the world's best military forces to a standstill while we waited for your politicians to recognise facts and your businessmen to recognise a good moneymaker. The USA suffered, IIRC, a few shell fired at a couple of coastal towns a few times. And we paid back every penny of the war debt to America ( The last payment in 2006 IIRC.)

    But, for all that, I am fond of the USA and Americans in general, even the Donald.
    I wish I could have experienced the glory years of Great Britain. I can glean some from the old movies and it looked truly wonderful (as long as you spoke English and had a enough money). But alas they went the way of all the godless. Now Britain isn't worth a flush of the toilet. (And the US isn't far behind)

  4. #24
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    When the BBC harassed Benny Hill to literally clean up his telly act or else, I knew it was bound to get worse...

  5. #25
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    A majority of England's monied classes had long run most of their world-wide colonies like cash cows for themselves. Most of them didn't want a war in 1914, therefore the British army was in a weak state and unprepared for a large scale war.

    When circumstances pushed war on them they had to rapidly recruit, train and equip a vast army, just as we did. "Instant" armies, large or small, live or die based on the courage and determination of the new solders.

    The Brits, like us in both World Wars, put good men on the ground where they fought very well under very bad conditions. Many in both country's armies were led by some bad officers - at all levels - but good men paid the price for leadership stupidity and held.

    I despise bottom feeding politicians everywhere but respectfully salute the ground pounders, swabies and airmen of all countries.

  6. #26
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    The topic lost direction from "Deep Theological Discussion", & went geopolitical, or the like, is what I am thinking...

    Some might enjoy reading this article:

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/where...from_b_1982110

    Others may not...
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  7. #27
    Boolit Master Traffer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBinMN View Post
    The topic lost direction from "Deep Theological Discussion", & went geopolitical, or the like, is what I am thinking...

    Some might enjoy reading this article:

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/where...from_b_1982110

    Others may not...
    I did enjoy reading it. Thank you very much. I would have loved to discuss this with the author. But since he is not available I will propose a couple of observations here:
    In the article the author proposes this as a fact: "We view every human as a recipient of the gift of reason".
    Indeed I believe reason is an extremely important fundamental "gift".
    I would propose though, that much of the recent social chaos or disintegration is due to a very stark lack of reason on the part of a segment of society.
    One only needs to read a few articles of news lately to see it. Insanity! Deceit, hatred... unbridled EMOTIONAL lack of reason in modern society.
    Like the author, I believe that the ability to reason is a gift.
    But not all have it. Some have opted to ignore reason and REPLACE it with knee jerk emotional reaction, devoid of reason.
    There are some "truths" that I believe are universal, that many, probably MOST, would disagree with.
    One of the most ignored principal of theism is ... "Fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom".
    I contend that if one would look objectively at our "modern society" from the perspective of say, "angels" it is easy to see that the great brunt of woes and self inflicted wounds we suffer are from a corporate lack of the "Fear of God" which does prove that it is indeed the "beginning of human wisdom".
    Now as you said.
    Some will enjoy reading this, others not so much.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    I had a thought last night. Where do our morals come from? How is it that we've near unanimously in the world, come to agree that it's wrong to rob, rape, murder, etc? How did this come about??? What are your thoughts???
    I hold that some truths are self-evident and it seems in this the founding fathers of this country and ancient philosophers agreed.

    I like to start with:

    All humans are created equal.

    Then add the seven deadly sins

    and to not seem so totally negative I would add the seven cardinal virtues

    I would not use the 10 commandments as their wording is problematic and the first 4 have nothing to do with morals.

    Morals come from logic. Ask what makes society and the universe, all society not just special groups a better place.

    "it's wrong to rob, rape, murder," because it causes harm, makes society worse not better.

    Tim
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    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  9. #29
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    Don't make slavery as we know it a factor in a Godly life because slavery under the Hebrews was vastly different from the chattel slavery of others. Most Hebrew slavery was actually indentured servitude, like working off a debt like poor emigrants used to do to get here.

    Hebrew "slaves" could not be abused, they had designated provisions and protections. They also had a specific end time (max seven years) UNLESS they chose to remain under the care of their masters and many of them did. (Seems that dependable food and shelter was a strong attractant, like the bought and paid for voting slaves of the Democrat Party today!)

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    I hold that some truths are self-evident and it seems in this the founding fathers of this country and ancient philosophers agreed.

    I like to start with:

    All humans are created equal.

    Then add the seven deadly sins

    and to not seem so totally negative I would add the seven cardinal virtues

    I would not use the 10 commandments as their wording is problematic and the first 4 have nothing to do with morals.

    Morals come from logic. Ask what makes society and the universe, all society not just special groups a better place.

    "it's wrong to rob, rape, murder," because it causes harm, makes society worse not better.

    Tim
    Pretty good summation there
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  11. #31
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    Post #23 is where the buck stops.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    I believe you've drawn the wrong message from the pervasive presence of evil as evidence bad people don't see what they do as evil. They know what they do is evil, that's why they try very hard to conceal what they do. From Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot's murderous thugs to Epstein's little girl's and Hillary's "lost" emails, arrogant and slimey people in power, from small thugs to great, often hold other people in contempt. But, in the end, they also do everything in their power to hide what they've done because they KNOW it's wrong!
    There's an exchange in James Clavell's Shogun in which an English sea captain is explaining the ongoing European Protestant revolts against the Catholic authority with a Japanese warlord. The warlord tells the captain that "there are no 'mitigating circumstances' when it comes to rebellion against a sovereign lord". The captain's response: "Unless you win" which gave the warlord a good chuckle and forced him to concede the point.

    So no, I don't really agree with you that folks do everything in their power to hide what they do because they "know" it's wrong. . .they START to hide what they do because their ENEMIES think it's wrong and it has become apparent that they are about to lose. The Nazis were proud to make home movies of their early activities so they could show the grandkids how they served to sweep away the evils of the past and make the world Uncle Adolph's envisioned "better place". We know the exact date that Anne Frank died in a concentration camp because they were such nuts for detailed filing of their activities - if they were just trying to murder six million people and hide the fact, we'd have no idea when or even where she went. The mania to sweep it all under the rug didn't really even start until '43 when North Africa and Stalingrad showed them things might not keep going their way.

    George Washington and Thomas Jefferson are now viewed as "Men of Vision" only because they won. How would they and their doctrines be seen today if they had lost and the U.S.A. was still a British territory? Probably not much different than how we see Hitler and his policies today.

    So as to the O.P.'s question of where morals come from. . .there's certainly a component of not only stating your point, but the real legacy is in making it stick.
    WWJMBD?

    "I'M MELLLLLLLLLLTING!" - Elphaba

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    ... I don't really agree with you that folks do everything in their power to hide what they do because they "know" it's wrong. . .they START to hide what they do because their ENEMIES think it's wrong and it has become apparent that they are about to lose. The Nazis were proud to make home movies of their early activities so they could show the grandkids how they served to sweep away the evils of the past and make the world Uncle Adolph's envisioned "better place". ... The mania to sweep it all under the rug didn't really even start until '43 when North Africa and Stalingrad showed them things might not keep going their way.

    Hitler and his policies today.

    So as to the O.P.'s question of where morals come from. . .there's certainly a component of not only stating your point, but the real legacy is in making it stick.
    Don't confuse the fact that the NAZIs expected to win and so be unaccountable with their certain knowledge that what they were doing was morally wrong.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Don't confuse the fact that the NAZIs expected to win and so be unaccountable with their certain knowledge that what they were doing was morally wrong.
    True believers are strange folk. Case in point the friendly neighborhood ISIS chaps who will cut your head off with a dull spatula in the name of their religious code, secure in the knowledge that what they are doing is morally RIGHT. Hold the right "magnet" (anti-semitism, liberalism, etc...) next to a moral compass, it'll point damnear any direction you like.
    WWJMBD?

    "I'M MELLLLLLLLLLTING!" - Elphaba

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    Why does the Viking practice of rape, looting and pillage not survive today?
    Is it possible that their mode of operation was defeated?
    Why is it that the Scandinavian countries are such wimpy socialists today?

    The British isles were always a mixing pot since the human race was not born there. All peoples in the UK were/are invaders from some place. I was not aware the Brits were so successful anyway. There are more people in the US of British descent than there are in the UK. The largest group of people that speak English as a first language are in the United States. The UK has lost its empire so I would not claim that in the long run it is so successful. It has to be bailed out of 2 world wars....
    What was the last sentence of Churchill's speech?

    Quote
    We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and if, which I do not for a moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old.

    It is not very confidence inspiring if the ultimate remedy is the not your own country but some other country?
    Didja' know, EDG, that when the Vikings accepted Christianity, their behavior changed radically? They'd still defend themselves quite ably, but sought less and less the conquest of others, which relieved a LOT of folks. So your version stops short of owning up to what Christianity did for the Vikings. Ain't it funny how that works?

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    There's an exchange in James Clavell's Shogun in which an English sea captain is explaining the ongoing European Protestant revolts against the Catholic authority with a Japanese warlord. The warlord tells the captain that "there are no 'mitigating circumstances' when it comes to rebellion against a sovereign lord". The captain's response: "Unless you win" which gave the warlord a good chuckle and forced him to concede the point.

    So no, I don't really agree with you that folks do everything in their power to hide what they do because they "know" it's wrong. . .they START to hide what they do because their ENEMIES think it's wrong and it has become apparent that they are about to lose. The Nazis were proud to make home movies of their early activities so they could show the grandkids how they served to sweep away the evils of the past and make the world Uncle Adolph's envisioned "better place". We know the exact date that Anne Frank died in a concentration camp because they were such nuts for detailed filing of their activities - if they were just trying to murder six million people and hide the fact, we'd have no idea when or even where she went. The mania to sweep it all under the rug didn't really even start until '43 when North Africa and Stalingrad showed them things might not keep going their way.

    George Washington and Thomas Jefferson are now viewed as "Men of Vision" only because they won. How would they and their doctrines be seen today if they had lost and the U.S.A. was still a British territory? Probably not much different than how we see Hitler and his policies today.

    So as to the O.P.'s question of where morals come from. . .there's certainly a component of not only stating your point, but the real legacy is in making it stick.
    Gee whiz, Slug! I've had my ration of nihlistic cynicism already today! Don't need any more! But of course, you're always ready with a good dose of good ol' nihlistic cynicism, as usual. I hope you have some reason for your attitude. It'd be such a shame to simply choose it among so many other, obviously superior attitudes!

  17. #37
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    ULtimately, folks, I believe, and come just short of being able to say "know," that morals almost always come from our relationship with whatever "Higher Power" we or they recognize in our lives. And there's a component of what's good for us, long term, certainly. I believe that's part of the reason, though, that God gives our morals to us - to help us keep ourselves whole and prosperous. After all, God DOES want us to be that way! But I wondered what others thought, and now I know a little more about that than I did berfore. Always good to learn. A few posts are just more spewing of nihlistic cynicism, but that seems to be inevitable on this board. What a waste of what could have been good, human effort and breath.

  18. #38
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    I believe they come from the first rule book- The 10 Commandments.

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    Not all campaigns are evil. Did not God directly command Israel to attack other lands? If He did that, then it's very clear that He doesn't disapprove of ALL wars and skirmishes. Only one who seeks to destroy legitimate Christian belief could so consistently come up with such "interpretations" of the things written and discussed here.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    Gee whiz, Slug! I've had my ration of nihlistic cynicism already today! Don't need any more! But of course, you're always ready with a good dose of good ol' nihlistic cynicism, as usual. I hope you have some reason for your attitude. It'd be such a shame to simply choose it among so many other, obviously superior attitudes!
    I wasn't aware that detached, objective observation of history without judging through the lens of my own position was an "attitude". Many would call that "healthy"
    WWJMBD?

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