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Thread: Where do they come from?

  1. #1
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    Where do they come from?

    I had a thought last night. Where do our morals come from? How is it that we've near unanimously in the world, come to agree that it's wrong to rob, rape, murder, etc? How did this come about??? What are your thoughts???

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

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    Public norms + values = morals. Yea, the system is alittle broke.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master redhawk0's Avatar
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    It stems back to the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. It's inherent to our human nature to distinguish between good and evil. God put that nature in us as we were created in His image. Eating from the Tree opened the eyes of Adam and Eve...and subsequently every human born since.

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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    I had a thought last night. Where do our morals come from? How is it that we've near unanimously in the world, come to agree that it's wrong to rob, rape, murder, etc? How did this come about??? What are your thoughts???
    You answer that question and you have identified God.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by redhawk0 View Post
    It stems back to the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. It's inherent to our human nature to distinguish between good and evil. God put that nature in us as we were created in His image. Eating from the Tree opened the eyes of Adam and Eve...and subsequently every human born since.

    redhawk
    I believe this is the correct answer. Even those that have never known of God or Christ have a knowing of what is good or evil so it must be a God given instinct !

  6. #6
    Boolit Master

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    At the start, there was probably something akin to laziness in there. We'll have a tendency to simply take what we want until we have to work for it. We also have a tendency to defend what we have which makes work for taker and takee alike. There is something of a nuclear deterrent / Mutually-Assured Destruction effect underlying moral code. "If you don't rob, starve, rape, or murder me, then I won't impale you on a spear. Simmer down a bit and you might find the money, food, and sex will come a little easier to you"

    Empathy and conscience both likely grow from parenting and family instincts extended to those outside the immediate tribe.

    Mix the two together, add a few generations of stable food supply, and BAM! Morals!

    As I alluded to in the "More perspectives from atheists/agnostics" thread, our base programming is to be the "Darwinian Competitor". Depending on your circumstances, being the D.C. might consist of being the hard working suburban parents, devoted to family and society, or it might be consist of being the monsters who steal what they eat and reproduce coercively or irresponsibly. It's depressingly evident that both appear to be valid evolutionary models - almost as if God were beta-testing both systems. It could be depressingly argued that the latter is more effective.

    I would therefore tend to question your statement that "we've near unanimously in the world, come to agree that it's wrong to rob, rape, murder, etc?" as there is absolutely no shortage of any of that. Your perspective may come from the fact that those who partake in those acts aren't as likely to be waxing philosophical about it on internet forums or publishing weighty tomes on the subject.

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  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy T_McD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post

    As I alluded to in the "More perspectives from atheists/agnostics" thread, our base programming is to be the "Darwinian Competitor". Depending on your circumstances, being the D.C. might consist of being the hard working suburban parents, devoted to family and society, or it might be consist of being the monsters who steal what they eat and reproduce coercively or irresponsibly. It's depressingly evident that both appear to be valid evolutionary models - almost as if God were beta-testing both systems. It could be depressingly argued that the latter is more effective.

    I would therefore tend to question your statement that "we've near unanimously in the world, come to agree that it's wrong to rob, rape, murder, etc?" as there is absolutely no shortage of any of that. Your perspective may come from the fact that those who partake in those acts aren't as likely to be waxing philosophical about it on internet forums or publishing weighty tomes on the subject.

    I'm just a sparkly ray of sunshine, aren't I?
    I would also add that many beliefs would change if your comfortable life was transformed to a prison life. It is a privilege to wax philosophical.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    "Empathy and conscience both likely grow from parenting and family instincts extended to those outside the immediate tribe."

    I wonder where the sociopath fits in here? They are incapable of empathy and seem to be devoid of conscience no matter what society, or family they are part of. They do however, seem to be a percentage of humans who fit this shoe, thusly they must have some societal advantages. Did God make them that way? Do they have a choice but to be that way?

    MY morality does come from Christian scripture. As pointed out in other threads, the strongest make the rules. Look at how the rich in this country have made rules to prevent others becoming wealthy, or the vast number of laws whose real purpose is to generate wealth for the powerful.

    It appears that all cultures have a form of morality, but, just like proving God's existence, I'm afraid proving just where it comes from, will be relevant to where you are looking from.

  9. #9
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    https://youtu.be/tjDa8gRA7TM

    Something to think about.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    ..... I would therefore tend to question your statement that "we've near unanimously in the world, come to agree that it's wrong to rob, rape, murder, etc?" as there is absolutely no shortage of any of that. ...
    I believe you've drawn the wrong message from the pervasive presence of evil as evidence bad people don't see what they do as evil. They know what they do is evil, that's why they try very hard to conceal what they do. From Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot's murderous thugs to Epstein's little girl's and Hillary's "lost" emails, arrogant and slimey people in power, from small thugs to great, often hold other people in contempt. But, in the end, they also do everything in their power to hide what they've done because they KNOW it's wrong!

  11. #11
    Boolit Master

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    Dennis -- some thoughts:

    If one subscribes to a religion such as Christianity that teaches these morals, then one (hopefully!) practices them.

    Whether or not the children of those who subscribe to such a religion follow and practice the religion or not, they were raised under that system of beliefs and will likely follow them. Perhaps even indoctrinate their children into them. But without a recognition that our morals come from God, and lacking a belief in God, they will eventually become diluted and cease to exist. After all, without God, what constrains them?

    In a nation founded by persons subscribing to those morals the system of government and laws are based upon those morals, and those who do not subscribe to them are made to live according to those moral-encompassing laws or suffer penalties.

    Obviously, using Islam as an example, the morals of all religions are not the same as concerns sexual behavior, i.e. child brides, and witnesses to rape. In those societies what we consider perversion is a norm. In certain tribal locations in Africa ritual murder still exists. Morals change with societies and locations.

    True, pure evil -- as characterized in a previous post as sociopaths and their behavior, really does exist, as you know from your career experiences. Just like Boaz characterizes Jeff Garrett and Ed Rawlins in "Tumbleweeds", the best solution is to remove these people from society permanently, as rehabilitation is impossible. They definitely lack a conscience, and perhaps lack a soul. I know that we've both met them. Unfortunately, Liberalism in this Country has weakened the practice of our founding fathers to "get a rope!"

    The trend to weaken, subvert, pervert and change our traditional system of moral values continues to our eventual destruction as a civilized people.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    Everyone starts framing morals with their own religious biases when morals are much older than any religion.

    The values we call morals are nothing more than behavior that enables humans to more easily cooperate and survive. Natural selection favors those that help and care for each other. Natural selection frowns on those that cannot get along with their neighbors, families and friends. If you are deemed no good because of your behavior toward others you may be an outcast doomed to survive on your own with NO community assistance. Human cooperation has been in existence since long before any sort of religion was practiced. To more easily survive man needs to cooperate even if there was NO religion. You see that around the world where the cooperation of family units always exists regardless of any form or lack of religion.
    EDG

  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    I think they come from the haves vs the have nots.

    If you are a young man, working hard, have a wife, 2 children, a home, some possessions.

    And one of the have not's decides to take them from you. Pretty quickly you decide that rape, theft, murder slavery is wrong. And it should be punished, severely.

    A young man who works at a trade is not really an equal opponant of one who steals, rapes, kills for a living.

    So community's started decideing that morals were a good thing.

    Its the old story of the sheep dog vs the wolf. A good sheep dog may look like a sheep, act like a sheep. do nothing to scare the flock. Right up until the moment the wolf appears. Then he is all fangs, barks and defience, protecting the flock.

    This world needs more sheepdogs. Too many wolves already, and if things start to break down further and faster you'll see them doing what they do. Steeling from the week and helpless. Raping the young and tender, and killing their protectors. Till a sheepdog shows up.

    We can be sheepdogs, but remember, the idea is not to scare the flock. We need to look and act like the sheep until the wolf appears.
    I suspect most of us here would make very good sheepdogs.

  14. #14
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    It takes a village to raise a child...society dictates norms.
    The old debate of instinctive vs. learned morals is now a thing of the past.
    Sad to say, the rise of liberalism & social activism has eroded even basic biological norm...
    ...Speak softly & carry a big stick...

  15. #15
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    I believe they come from society.

    Slavery was acceptable even In the New Testament when Jesus was on earth.
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Slavery existed before the New Testament.
    Anyone that has read much about ancient Egypt knows that the Egyptians had slaves thousands of years before Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    I believe they come from society.

    Slavery was acceptable even In the New Testament when Jesus was on earth.
    EDG

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    Sheep dogs no.
    The earliest forms of cooperation came long before there was society or the larger community.
    It comes with the family unit.
    Humans do not kill their own families because to do so would would endanger their own chances of survival. It is just part of the process of natural selection. Those humans born without the ability to empathize with others will be avoided by others and their chances of passing on their DNA will be reduced.

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHawk View Post
    I think they come from the haves vs the have nots.

    If you are a young man, working hard, have a wife, 2 children, a home, some possessions.

    And one of the have not's decides to take them from you. Pretty quickly you decide that rape, theft, murder slavery is wrong. And it should be punished, severely.

    A young man who works at a trade is not really an equal opponant of one who steals, rapes, kills for a living.

    So community's started decideing that morals were a good thing.

    Its the old story of the sheep dog vs the wolf. A good sheep dog may look like a sheep, act like a sheep. do nothing to scare the flock. Right up until the moment the wolf appears. Then he is all fangs, barks and defience, protecting the flock.

    This world needs more sheepdogs. Too many wolves already, and if things start to break down further and faster you'll see them doing what they do. Steeling from the week and helpless. Raping the young and tender, and killing their protectors. Till a sheepdog shows up.

    We can be sheepdogs, but remember, the idea is not to scare the flock. We need to look and act like the sheep until the wolf appears.
    I suspect most of us here would make very good sheepdogs.
    EDG

  18. #18
    Boolit Master Traffer's Avatar
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    It is amazing to me how ignorant the "common person" is nowadays. What we call "Western Civilization" has come about by the study and adherence to a book called "The Bible". Society in the "west" FORMED as a CONSEQUENCE of people seeking God in the Bible. You can argue that but you would be wrong.
    And in the Bible the chronicle of people who sought God shows that a cycle of "society" is at work. People turn to God and seek him when things get really really bad (instances where people end up eating their own children come to mind). God blesses society when they seek him. They prosper and drift away from God again...until things get really ugly...then the cycle of turning back to God begins again. Psalm 107 is a good example of this. It is only applicable to the "people of God" though. Those who would never turn to God simply perish, like chaff they are blown away into the wind.
    The present unraveling of our civilization is another example of people turning away from God.
    Personally I don't want to see it get to the point of where mothers cook and eat their own children. But it will. Unless those of us who still believe start to do something about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    Those humans born without the ability to empathize with others will be avoided by others and their chances of passing on their DNA will be reduced.
    It must be said that the Vikings, among others, certainly did not empathise very much at all but they certainly managed to spread their DNA around more than the average. It has been said that one reason the British were so successful in their wars was because in early history the British Isles had been invaded by every ruthless bunch of hooligans that Europe and even parts of Africa and the Middle East could provide and what was on the list of activities? Looting, pillaging, and, yes, rape!

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    Why does the Viking practice of rape, looting and pillage not survive today?
    Is it possible that their mode of operation was defeated?
    Why is it that the Scandinavian countries are such wimpy socialists today?

    The British isles were always a mixing pot since the human race was not born there. All peoples in the UK were/are invaders from some place. I was not aware the Brits were so successful anyway. There are more people in the US of British descent than there are in the UK. The largest group of people that speak English as a first language are in the United States. The UK has lost its empire so I would not claim that in the long run it is so successful. It has to be bailed out of 2 world wars....
    What was the last sentence of Churchill's speech?

    Quote
    We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and if, which I do not for a moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old.

    It is not very confidence inspiring if the ultimate remedy is the not your own country but some other country?


    Quote Originally Posted by UKShootist View Post
    It must be said that the Vikings, among others, certainly did not empathise very much at all but they certainly managed to spread their DNA around more than the average. It has been said that one reason the British were so successful in their wars was because in early history the British Isles had been invaded by every ruthless bunch of hooligans that Europe and even parts of Africa and the Middle East could provide and what was on the list of activities? Looting, pillaging, and, yes, rape!
    EDG

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