Casting copper or ? bullets

[44Blam]

...officer, I cast these out of Roto-Metals '88% Bismuth, 12% Tin' alloy and then powder coated them...

[JBinMN]

I am curious as to how they will know just "what" your bullets or boolits are composed of if checked. The game wardens going to carry around XRF machines?

[Rizzo]

I am curious as to how they will know just "what" your bullets or boolits are composed of if checked. The game wardens going to carry around XRF machines?

I agree, especially if you powder coat your Bismuth bullets.
I guess the answer is what I think someone already posted is to keep a copy of your certification (from Roto Metals) with you while hunting.
Cheesh!!, all these hoops us gun enthusiasts have to jump through.....now background checks to buy ammo here in California.
Gr-rrr.

[megasupermagnum]

Game wardens have been carrying Hotshot devices country wide for decades to test waterfowl hunters. If they didn't carry something similar in CA, anybody could load jacketed lead bullets, put them in a Barnes ammo box, and nobody would know better.

California does have specific requirements on "non-toxic" metals that go beyond federal guidelines. Federally, any Bismuth and tin alloy is legal. I do not know if that holds true for California or not.

[Burnt Fingers]

With a melting point below 400° I think one would have a hard time powder coating that alloy.

[JBinMN]

Game wardens have been carrying Hotshot devices country wide for decades to test waterfowl hunters. If they didn't carry something similar in CA, anybody could load jacketed lead bullets, put them in a Barnes ammo box, and nobody would know better.

California does have specific requirements on "non-toxic" metals that go beyond federal guidelines. Federally, any Bismuth and tin alloy is legal. I do not know if that holds true for California or not.

I did not know that.
I quit hunting waterfall in 1979 in Minnesota because of protesting the lead free shot infringement the Minnesota DNR put in place for no good reason in my opinion anyway. And didn’t take up waterfowl hunting again until mid 1990s, because a friend of mine and my sons wanted me to get back into it again. So, going against my anger at the ridiculousness of the whole idea, and in the best interest of my sons, I took it up again. I was never checked while out in the field, so I don’t know if they have a way of protecting or not, but I do know that there are people that were busted because they went from upland bird hunting in the field to waterfowl hunting in the evening and got in trouble for having possession of lead shot while water fowling.

Anyway, I reckon they must have some way to check folks, and figure out A way they want to bust somebody for stupid BS.

Thanks for the info you provided though, I appreciate it.

Posting from my cell phone so if there is some kind of mistakes in the syntax punctuation or whatever suck it up ha ha.

[megasupermagnum]

I did not know that.
I quit hunting waterfall in 1979 in Minnesota because of protesting the lead free shot infringement the Minnesota DNR put in place for no good reason in my opinion anyway. And didn’t take up waterfowl hunting again until mid 1990s, because a friend of mine and my sons wanted me to get back into it again. So, going against my anger at the ridiculousness of the whole idea, and in the best interest of my sons, I took it up again. I was never checked while out in the field, so I don’t know if they have a way of protecting or not, but I do know that there are people that were busted because they went from upland bird hunting in the field to waterfowl hunting in the evening and got in trouble for having possession of lead shot while water fowling.

Anyway, I reckon they must have some way to check folks, and figure out A way they want to bust somebody for stupid BS.

Thanks for the info you provided though, I appreciate it.

Posting from my cell phone so if there is some kind of mistakes in the syntax punctuation or whatever suck it up ha ha.

It is ridiculous. It is probably the single biggest moment for Minnesota, the time when we even beat out California for stupid ideas. Of course the ban went nation wide just a few years later, but none of it did any good. Arguing against gun control is hard. Trying to repeal the lead shot ban which has done nothing falls on deaf ears, I've tried. No data before any lead ban has ever shown shot or bullets to effect wild life in any manner. A very specific study to a hard bottom lake showed that some deep diving birds could possibly be eating lead off the bottom, although to no detrimental effect to the population as a whole. I seem to remember about 3% testing positive for lead poisoning in that case. The study done way back in the 40's and 50's was the driving factor for the 1991 ban, and I believe it was later found that the real cause in that case was a pesticide, not shot or bullets. Here we are 30 years later. Nothing has changed. Duck populations have actually gone down. The deep diving loon that MN was so worried about has shown no significant population change since the lead ban.

Shotguns shooting 1 1/4 ounce of shot more or less, and many shots a season is one thing. How anyone can condemn a bullet, I'd say average 150 grains, and a single shot per year if they are lucky is beyond comprehension. Now here in MN we have people crying to ban lead in fishing! As if that one 1/8 oz split shot I loose a year matters at all. How about those 15,000 beer cans in the bottom of every lake? I've never heard of anyone wanting to clean those out.

It's absolute insanity, with no data to back it up. Now CA has banned lead outright, and I doubt there is any going back. Sorry this doesn't help the thread.

[JBinMN]

I agree Megasupermagnum.

To not sway/sidetrack the topic, I will stop with that.

G'Luck! to those in the Californistan Leftist controlled state.

I sincerely wish ya the best!

[GhostHawk]

I will say that while I thought minnesota's ban on lead for waterfowl was stupid and accomplished little or nothing,

I made the jump to steel and learned to kill with it.

I can see especialy on the big refuges, where you have loads of hunters blasting around the edge that you could possibly get significant lead buildup in places. But the easy fix there is simple require hunters with x distance of a refuge to use steel shot.

The sort of lakes our loons prefer (who can dive deep) are generally not the same bodies of water ducks prefer. So I see that as a non issue.

Any gamewarden can slap a magnet on a shell and see if it has steel shot. But that does not prevent someone from coming up with a duplex load of lead in the center surrounded by steel. Bismith is a whole nother game. I personally would not carry it afield without something proving what it is. Although in an idea world burden of proof is on the state.

As to our friends in Ca, I have one thing to say. GET OUT while you can.

Nevada, Arizona, Idiho would seem to be much better choices.

[megasupermagnum]

Its a non-issue. I duck hunt with only bismuth now. Never been field tested, but ran into a warden in town. Both rotometals bismuth shot and my home made shot come up as bismuth on the tester. Bismith/tin alloy has been well known since the mid 90's, its not exotic.

[Rizzo]

Thank you all for your input.

Yesterday I purchased three pounds of the Roto Metals Bismuth/Tin 88%/12% casting alloy.
The cost delivered was $55.64.

I am going to cast for my .357 mag Henry rifle.
I will be using a Lee 358-158-RF mold.

Despite the aggravating non-lead hunting issue I am looking forward to testing this Bismuth/Tin alloy.
Several new variables to deal with, but it should be fun.

I will post some notes and results as I progress.

[JBinMN]

At the price for that alloy I would suggest that you make or find and use a bullet trap to capture those bullets. The ones I use I make out of dimensional lumber (2x), some plywood or OSB, ground up rubber mulch they use for playgrounds and the like. I’ve made and used about a dozen and this is definitely a reason to have one at the price of that alloy.

[dbosman]

What's wrong with pure tin?
Softer and heavier than zink and casts readily with normal equipment, oh and it's cheap.

They are brittle compared to lead.

[dbosman]

How much pressure would be needed to swage copper bullets using a hydraulic press?

[country gent]

Getting copper to flow swaging would take a major press. In the draw redraw can line ( ,0010 steel) the cupper was 150 ton. the final draw press was 300 tons and this was tin annealed stock. Forming a solid copper bullet from cores would probably take 500 ton or better. You would still need the lathe to cut cores and the slight additional tooling to turn bullets and the added passes would probably be faster than cutting cores then the swaging combined would be. A simple form tool for the ogive / nose a turning tool for the dia and a cutoff tool to take the bullet off. Ground right the nose form cutter could be used for different calibers with the same nose the turning and parting tools would be universal also Just a change in stops or the program.

[Rizzo]

At the price for that alloy I would suggest that you make or find and use a bullet trap to capture those bullets. The ones I use I make out of dimensional lumber (2x), some plywood or OSB, ground up rubber mulch they use for playgrounds and the like. I’ve made and used about a dozen and this is definitely a reason to have one at the price of that alloy.

Good advice, thanks.
Yes, that is what I will be doing.
I shoot in my backyard (up to 100 yards) and have bullet traps at different distances (7 yd, 25, 50, 75 and 100yd.).
I use 18" x 24" x 10" deep boxes mounted on vertical 2"x4"s, filled with sand.
When I "harvest" my bullets I run the sand through a 1/4" screen to retrieve the bullets.

When I test the Bismuth/Tin bullets I will start out with a clean bullet trap at 75 yards so I can get my bullets back for re-casting.
That way I won't be mixing the lead bullets with the Bismuth/Tin bullets.

Yes, that alloy is pricey compared to the "free" lead I have been using.
<sigh> But, gotta stay legal.

[JBinMN]

Good advice, thanks.
Yes, that is what I will be doing.
I shoot in my backyard (up to 100 yards) and have bullet traps at different distances (7 yd, 25, 50, 75 and 100yd.).
I use 18" x 24" x 10" deep boxes mounted on vertical 2"x4"s, filled with sand.
When I "harvest" my bullets I run the sand through a 1/4" screen to retrieve the bullets.

When I test the Bismuth/Tin bullets I will start out with a clean bullet trap at 75 yards so I can get my bullets back for re-casting.
That way I won't be mixing the lead bullets with the Bismuth/Tin bullets.

Yes, that alloy is pricey compared to the "free" lead I have been using.
<sigh> But, gotta stay legal.

Glad you already covered that.


G'Luck!

[inspector_17]

I believe Remington now makes frangible bullets made from copper powder. Local powdered metal plant developed technique several years ago. Company gave samples to employees who hunted and reloaded. The employees gave good reviews.

[fcvan]

Several years ago, I found a supplier that sold lathe turned HPBT projectiles. 30 cal 150gr had the ballistic coefficient of a 168 BTNM bullet. They were $27.50/100 so I bought and tested a bunch. Good expansion in test media. They also had lathe turned .223 HPBT 55gr for $11.00/100 which shot well. Dang if they stopped carrying the copper bullets.

As far as cast Bismuth/Tin alloy, CF&G can request one of your cartridges for testing. I'll pull one of my slugs with a Leatherman making sure to screw it up. I'm not giving up my brass and primer! But, the regs. allow them to make a request. Note: I have heard this portion of the reg is under review as a violation of the 'takings clause' in the constitution.

I have read that some swagers out there are working on perfecting swaged condom bullets with Bismuth alloy cores. It looks like for now anyone from CA who hand loads will have to knuckle down and pay dearly for copper like Barnes or equivalent. MidwayUSA has them at roughly $38.00/50 for 30 cal 168gr. The frangible bullets are sintered copper/tin powder and disintegrate on contact, I've shot them, they are good on steel or in 'kill house' shooting drills for safety but I wouldn't want to waste meat on a shot that will likely blow up on the hide and not penetrate effectively.

[Rizzo]

So, like I posted previously, I ordered 3 pounds of the Bismuth 88%/Tin 12% alloy from Roto Metals.
I received it the other day.
Quick shipping and good packaging.

However, the "texture" of the ingots has me wondering how the bullets will look after casting.
Here is a picture of the ingot on their website that looks just like my ingots:


I'm pretty busy right now so it will be a week or so before I start this new project.
It should be fun.

I'll post my experiences afterwards.