Pedersoli Kodiak safari express?

[Bob9863]

Pretty simple question, are they any good?

I haven't found any reviews on them but I'm very interested in getting one.
Is it much better then the slug shotgun out to 50m or so? The shotgun is more flexible but I think the rifle will make a much better hunting gun.

[flynth]

Although I have a Pedersoli Kodiak Express with .58 and .50 barrels (swapable) and Kodiak Safari Express is in .72 cal I chose to reply, because when I was considering which Kodiak to buy I did a lot of online research. Please note the kind of loads I'm talking about below far exceed Pedersoli recommendations. If you choose to use them you do so at your own risk. However, I noticed that Pedersoli is often over conservative with many load recommendations. For example in a 58 cal howdah pistol they recommend a max of 35 grains of powder when it uses the same barrels (but shorter) as their 58 cal kodiak rated for 110 grains. I found the howdah works best with 50-60 grains.

Coming back to the subject personally I would consider Kodiak Safari Express for hunting only if all your hunting is done at distances up to 60-70m at the very most (50 comfortably). Kodiak Safari Express with its .72 cal 1:75 inch rifling twist is a patched round ball rifle and a patched round ball looses its speed very quickly. Even if you load is pretty hot with 150 grains of powder and you get 1450 fps from a 500 grain patched round ball giving you 2300 ft-lbf of energy, in 30 meters it looses 20% of it. Don't get me wrong. Even the 1100 ft-lbf is enough to humanly dispatch the biggest American or European game in many countries there are muzzle energy limits. For example here in Poland to hunt Elk your gun has to have 2500J or 1843 ft-lbf at 100m from muzzle. So depending on where you are this may be a non issue for you.

Accuracy-wise I would expect a well regulated load to shoot 2 inch per barrel 5 shot groups at 50m, and shots from both barrels to be in the same 6 inch circle (many rifles are better than this - occasionally I read about a worse one). My .58 is pretty much like this with patched round ball. My 12 gauge smoothbore shotgun puts all shots on paper at 50m with a 72 ball - The paper is around 12x12 inches. I'll leave it at that

If you're planning to load it sufficiently hot for proper "express" velocities (so 1400-1600 ft/s) expect a pretty stout recoil (50 to 60 ft-lbf). For hunting this is probably acceptable, but bear in mind you'll have to develop the load for the rifle at the range. Also, it is very important during your load development you shoot the rifle off hand (the best) or standing with your hand resting on a shooting sticks and the rifle on that hand being held as if you were shooting off hand as the point of impact will be different when shooting from a bench rest. If you;re not going to load it to express speeds but you'll stay in the 1050-1200 fp/s range the recoil is less noticeable, but you'll have slightly worse trajectory. If you set your sights to 50m, the ball will end up 3 inches lower at 80m, if this is acceptable to you fine, but then what is the fun of having a big bore express rifle if you don't load it to express velocities

So if the above matches your requirements I would go ahead and buy it if I was you. However, personally I bought a Kodiak Express with 58 cal 24 inch barrels and another 28 inch .50 cal replacement barrels because when shooting 270 grain round ball with 120 grains of powder I get 1650 fps so I get the benefit of the express velocity while the recoil is much less. (I also wanted a pistol grip). I have an option to put a 450 grain conical (Lee REAL) in the 58 cal and it is actually even more accurate than with round ball giving me comparable energy to similar weight .72 cal round ball in Safari Express while being more flexible. I also have an option of a long 500 grain conical loaded hot in the .50 cal barrels for shooting at over 200m (no such requirement for hunting here, but it is fun to have and play with) with the .50 cal barrels being much heavier so the recoil is much less, and the 50 cal 500 grain conical sent at 1600 fps still delivers 1900 ft-lbs of energy even at 200m. I also have an option of shooting short 250 grain REALs for long range plinking with negligible recoil.

One use I haven't touched upon here is hunting dangerous game in Africa. If this is what you want to use the rifle for, only the Kodiak Safari Express in .72 cal with a 900 grain conical, loaded pretty hot will meet the energy requirements for hunting for example buffalo in South Africa. The gun will do it(I don't know about the stock), but I can't imagine the kind of recoil this would generate.

[Bob9863]

That's what I sort of figure about getting the 72, my eyes will be good for accurate shot placement out to the 75m mark, but most of my shooting is under 50m.
It will mostly get used on Sambar deer and some water buffalo, and for the buffalo I'd rather as big a entry hole as possible.
I've shot a number with the .690RB from my single shot smooth bore, I just felt this would have more accuracy and range along with an important fast 2nd shot.

[flynth]

If you don't mind the recoil this is not a bad choice for your described use in my opinion. However, bear in mind I read about some person online that got a lemon. So based on that it is important when buying new to buy from a seller that will allow you to exchange the rifle if you discover an issue with regulation. I also read a post by someone claiming to have fixed regulation of multiple such Kodiaks by recutting the crowns of barrels that were slightly off center. So if I wanted to fix something like that rather than exchange I would redo crowns first.

Fairly rough locks and triggers are to be expected and my Kodiak was no different. I polished triggers and lock's tumblers where they engage the trigger seers and they work great now. Also, if shooting short sleeved you'll need a flash guard for the left nipple or your left wrist will quickly discover flash from a cap hurts pretty badly. A person on another forum shortened both nipples and drilled the hammers slightly instead to envelop nipples better- I'm considering doing that too as I don't like the look of the flash guard.

Perhaps you already know this, but I'll mention it just in case. When testing loads and regulation it is best to use standing shooting sticks or a single wooden pole cut to size so when you rest the back of your left hand on it you can rest the rifle between your thumb and first finger and hold it while standing. Or do it offhand, but the rest allows for greater stability while allowing the rifle to recoil the same as if it was held offhand. This affects the regulation a lot. Another method is using a sandbag rest at a bench, but I had to learn how to hold the rifle to get it to shoot the same as offhand. So I suggest the standing method as better and only when you have enough confidence in how the rifle shoots try the bench-sandbag method if needed.

Regarding loads and regulation, I suggest to shoot one barrel at one target when testing round ball sizes and patch thicknesses for a single barrel group. Then once you found the right ball and patch combo shoot both barrels at different targets. Starting from a mild load it is likely that if the right barrel will shoot to point of aim, the left will shoot right and high or low. Then you increase the loads until they both print close enough. I would do that at 30 meters and then confirm at 50 when done.

And definitely let everyone know how the rifle shoots if you end up buying it

[Bob9863]

That's interesting to know about the regulation, I didn't event think about trying different loads or patches in the different barrels.
I was looking at a Gibbs Hunter in 72 too as I figured that a single shot would be much more accurate and easy to work up a load for.
I also like the 12ga slug as mentioned but I think a nicer looking rifle might be a better option.
My LGS is apparently getting an estate load of front stuffer in and the market in my area is small so I might find something nice there in a 72 as well.
But I really like that Kodiak, and knowing about the hazards of the left wrist is very helpful as I would definitely do that mod.
I'm a fitter by trade and tinkering with guns for fun anyway.

[Pamtnman]

Although I have a Pedersoli Kodiak Express with .58 and .50 barrels (swapable) and Kodiak Safari Express is in .72 cal I chose to reply, because when I was considering which Kodiak to buy I did a lot of online research. Please note the kind of loads I'm talking about below far exceed Pedersoli recommendations. If you choose to use them you do so at your own risk. However, I noticed that Pedersoli is often over conservative with many load recommendations. For example in a 58 cal howdah pistol they recommend a max of 35 grains of powder when it uses the same barrels (but shorter) as their 58 cal kodiak rated for 110 grains. I found the howdah works best with 50-60 grains.

Coming back to the subject personally I would consider Kodiak Safari Express for hunting only if all your hunting is done at distances up to 60-70m at the very most (50 comfortably). Kodiak Safari Express with its .72 cal 1:75 inch rifling twist is a patched round ball rifle and a patched round ball looses its speed very quickly. Even if you load is pretty hot with 150 grains of powder and you get 1450 fps from a 500 grain patched round ball giving you 2300 ft-lbf of energy, in 30 meters it looses 20% of it. Don't get me wrong. Even the 1100 ft-lbf is enough to humanly dispatch the biggest American or European game in many countries there are muzzle energy limits. For example here in Poland to hunt Elk your gun has to have 2500J or 1843 ft-lbf at 100m from muzzle. So depending on where you are this may be a non issue for you.

Accuracy-wise I would expect a well regulated load to shoot 2 inch per barrel 5 shot groups at 50m, and shots from both barrels to be in the same 6 inch circle (many rifles are better than this - occasionally I read about a worse one). My .58 is pretty much like this with patched round ball. My 12 gauge smoothbore shotgun puts all shots on paper at 50m with a 72 ball - The paper is around 12x12 inches. I'll leave it at that

If you're planning to load it sufficiently hot for proper "express" velocities (so 1400-1600 ft/s) expect a pretty stout recoil (50 to 60 ft-lbf). For hunting this is probably acceptable, but bear in mind you'll have to develop the load for the rifle at the range. Also, it is very important during your load development you shoot the rifle off hand (the best) or standing with your hand resting on a shooting sticks and the rifle on that hand being held as if you were shooting off hand as the point of impact will be different when shooting from a bench rest. If you;re not going to load it to express speeds but you'll stay in the 1050-1200 fp/s range the recoil is less noticeable, but you'll have slightly worse trajectory. If you set your sights to 50m, the ball will end up 3 inches lower at 80m, if this is acceptable to you fine, but then what is the fun of having a big bore express rifle if you don't load it to express velocities

So if the above matches your requirements I would go ahead and buy it if I was you. However, personally I bought a Kodiak Express with 58 cal 24 inch barrels and another 28 inch .50 cal replacement barrels because when shooting 270 grain round ball with 120 grains of powder I get 1650 fps so I get the benefit of the express velocity while the recoil is much less. (I also wanted a pistol grip). I have an option to put a 450 grain conical (Lee REAL) in the 58 cal and it is actually even more accurate than with round ball giving me comparable energy to similar weight .72 cal round ball in Safari Express while being more flexible. I also have an option of a long 500 grain conical loaded hot in the .50 cal barrels for shooting at over 200m (no such requirement for hunting here, but it is fun to have and play with) with the .50 cal barrels being much heavier so the recoil is much less, and the 50 cal 500 grain conical sent at 1600 fps still delivers 1900 ft-lbs of energy even at 200m. I also have an option of shooting short 250 grain REALs for long range plinking with negligible recoil.

One use I haven't touched upon here is hunting dangerous game in Africa. If this is what you want to use the rifle for, only the Kodiak Safari Express in .72 cal with a 900 grain conical, loaded pretty hot will meet the energy requirements for hunting for example buffalo in South Africa. The gun will do it(I don't know about the stock), but I can't imagine the kind of recoil this would generate.

Some years ago, the Double Gun Journal published an in-depth article by a man who took his Pedersoli Kodiak .58 double percussion rifle to Africa, where it killed an awful lot of big critters. He was mostly after the veldt game, like Oryx, various bucks, kudu, etc., and they all died right away. He was NOT using a round ball, but rather some sort of conical, like the REAL bullet. He posted a lot of photos and all the critters fell quickly. He has also published some other DGJ articles where he has taken deer and feral hogs with the same results. He probably has the MK III with the longer, heavier barrels, and I do not know if that is good for accuracy or bad, because the MK VI has shorter barrels for a reason. He did use shooting sticks.
For those interested in taking their Pedersoli Kodiak to Africa, others have done it, from the .58 to the .72, with total success.

[flynth]

Some years ago, the Double Gun Journal published an in-depth article by a man who took his Pedersoli Kodiak .58 double percussion rifle to Africa, where it killed an awful lot of big critters. He was mostly after the veldt game, like Oryx, various bucks, kudu, etc., and they all died right away. He was NOT using a round ball, but rather some sort of conical, like the REAL bullet. He posted a lot of photos and all the critters fell quickly. He has also published some other DGJ articles where he has taken deer and feral hogs with the same results. He probably has the MK III with the longer, heavier barrels, and I do not know if that is good for accuracy or bad, because the MK VI has shorter barrels for a reason. He did use shooting sticks.
For those interested in taking their Pedersoli Kodiak to Africa, others have done it, from the .58 to the .72, with total success.

Just to correct my earlier statement. I was in error when I said "only the Kodiak Safari Express in .72 cal with a 900 grain conical, loaded pretty hot will meet the energy requirements for hunting for example buffalo in South Africa". I meant legal requirements for minimum bullet energy for buffalo, but upon checking again I found out there is no such law in South Africa. There are other African countries like Zimbabwe and Namibia that require 5400J or 3982ft-lb to hunt buffalo, elephant etc. This is the energy level that I meant when I talked about a 900 grain conical and shoulder breaking recoil. No doubt those regulations are (as always) a bit of an overkill, but perhaps a useful guideline for dangerous game?

[Bob9863]

I will never hunt buff in Africa, only here.
The only game that I would like to hunt would be warthog, kudu, maybe leupold and some other plains game.
Big 5 won't be on the menu as I'd rather hunt a lot more buff here for the money.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Just to correct my earlier statement. I was in error when I said "only the Kodiak Safari Express in .72 cal with a 900 grain conical, loaded pretty hot will meet the energy requirements for hunting for example buffalo in South Africa". I meant legal requirements for minimum bullet energy for buffalo, but upon checking again I found out there is no such law in South Africa. There are other African countries like Zimbabwe and Namibia that require 5400J or 3982ft-lb to hunt buffalo, elephant etc. This is the energy level that I meant when I talked about a 900 grain conical and shoulder breaking recoil. No doubt those regulations are (as always) a bit of an overkill, but perhaps a useful guideline for dangerous game?

Have you read "The Sporting Rifle And It's Projectiles" (1867) by Lieutenant James Forsyth?

He, like many of his contemporaries, were advocates of large bore ball for hunting big game. These men killed more elephant than modern hunters will ever get to see. Their reason for liking the ball is that it stops inside the animal, delivering it's power. They did not like conical bullets as they would pass through an animal, taking it's energy with it.

[GregLaROCHE]

Is there any chance someone could special order a rifled barrel from Pedersoli ?

[Hometek]

A 710 grain boolit out of my .50 cal Hot Rod Renegade is running about 1380 FPS for 3002 ft lbs of energy. I don't know if you could get a fast twist barrel for the Kodiak but that should be good medicine for any animal.

[missionary5155]

We have a caliber .72. If you take the time to work up a load with patched RB you will get minute of ground hog head at 100 yards.
But be advised... both barrels are individuals rifles and each may have a load preference.

[Sixgun Symphony]

We have a caliber .72. If you take the time to work up a load with patched RB you will get minute of ground hog head at 100 yards.
But be advised... both barrels are individuals rifles and each may have a load preference.

One can get out to 150 to 200 yards if they pay their dues at the range. A 12 bore ball will get the job done.

[sharps4590]

I had one in 50 cal. and I wouldn't recommend it. However, let me qualify that. The barrels are not regulated in that both will shoot to reasonably the same POA with one rear sight. I found that completely unacceptable having worked with a few doubles and always being able to find a load that would regulate.

Having said that, I did find each barrel to be quite accurate and especially with round balls. They'd just shoot 6 to 16 inches apart unless one rear sight was dedicated to an individual barrel. My head just will not accept that so it went down the road and I went back to my 19th century originals that do shoot both barrels to the same POA. I have since acquired a Merkel O/U and a Vierordt SXS, both from the early 20th century and, they are...pleasingly satisfactory in their composite groups.

[Old Footman]

I had a very bad experience with a Kodiak .58 caliber many years ago. Too long to list, but "never again".