S&W Model 19 (K frame magnum) longevity

[gnostic]

Let me begin by saying, if you heard it from me, it's probably wrong. I have a theory about cracked forcing cones in revolvers and the model 19 in particular. I believe shooting jacketed bullets after the barrel's leaded up causes them to crack. I've removed strips of lead, 1/8" wide and 3/4" long from revolvers, after shooting jacketed bullets from a previously leaded bore. I don't know what I was thinking, when I thought shooting jacketed bullets was ok to clean the fouled barrel, it's not something I'd do again. Those strips of lead had to cause the working pressure to increase a lot...

[onelight]

At nineteen years per axis pin, I hope I have the opportunity to replace it at least one more time.

Ha ha I'm with you Buddy.

[onelight]

Let me begin by saying, if you heard it from me, it's probably wrong. I have a theory about cracked forcing cones in revolvers and the model 19 in particular. I believe shooting jacketed bullets after the barrel's leaded up causes them to crack. I've removed strips of lead, 1/8" wide and 3/4" long from revolvers, after shooting jacketed bullets from a previously leaded bore. I don't know what I was thinking, when I thought shooting jacketed bullets was ok to clean the fouled barrel, it's not something I'd do again. Those strips of lead had to cause the working pressure to increase a lot...

We can find a lot of ways to accomplish the same task

[Outpost75]

While there have been improvements in alloys and heat treatment since the 1980s, today's small-frame .357s are NOT engineered to law enforcement standards of durability. The design intent was NOT to be subjected to high-volume use of full-charge .357 Magnum loads.

S&W marketing presumes that once owners satisfy their initial curiosity and realize how unpleasant the smaller guns are to fire with .357s, they will stick mostly to .38 Specials. The improved metallurgy and heat treatment of modern J-frames and similar will be acceptably durable for civilian users firing modern .38 Special personal defense loads in the volume normally expected of "hobby shooters."

I don't expect that even modern J-frames could hold up in a FLETC-spec. 5000-round endurance test with +P+LE or Magnum loads, without requiring repairs or parts replacements beyond the user level. The 5000-round endurance test was the 1980s standard for revolvers purchased by Federal law enforcement. Never saw more than 50% of K-frames make it. That's why S&W developed the L-frame.

Those who love the J-frame to carry. try just one cylinder load of .357s, then decide how many more you want to shoot. Anyone who persists in doing so I can recommend referral to a hand specialist for wrist surgery when you are ready.

[tazman]

I have a J frame( model 60 in 38 special). I would not want one chambered in 357 mag. I quit shooting anything larger than 357 mag years ago because it hurt my hands and wrists.
My model 19 will do nicely with 38 special as I have larger frame revolvers for that.

[Petrol & Powder]

Just to be clear, there is no SAAMI recognized .357 Magnum +P.
There is 38 Special, 38 Special +P and .357 Magnum.

The SAAMI specs can be found here:
https://saami.org/technical-informat...ami-standards/

It is a PDF document and it is listed under the centerfire pistol and revolver section.

+P+ designations are used by some ammunition manufacturers for law enforcement ammunition that is over +P SAAMI limits. +P+ is not an official SAAMI rating.

The SAAMI PSI limit for .357 Magnum is 35K psi and I know of no decrease in that rating, as a PSI measurement. There were older measurements listed as copper units but those numbers are not interchangeable with the psi ratings.

[Petrol & Powder]

Directly from the SAAMI publication:

"COPPER CRUSHER SYSTEM
This system employs a copper crusher cylinder that is compressed by a piston fitted to a piston hole into the chamber of the test barrel. The pressure developed by the gases from the burning propellant acts through the piston hole, allowing the gases to force the piston upward, and thereby permanently compressing the copper crusher cylinder. The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute has adopted the pressure units designation of "Copper Units of Pressure" (abbreviated CUP) for this system. This designation applies only to values obtained using the particular crushers, tarage tables and methods outlined in this Standard.

PIEZOELECTRIC TRANSDUCER SYSTEM
This system employs a piezoelectric transducer flush mounted in the chamber of the test barrel. Pressure developed by the gases from the burning propellant exerts force on the transducer through the cartridge case wall causing the transducer to deflect, creating a measurable electric charge. This electrical charge is converted into a reading of pressure.
The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute has adopted the pressure units designation of "pounds per square inch" (abbreviated psi) for this system. This designation applies to values obtained with transducers and methods as outlined in this Standard."


Note that while CUP and PSI are both listed in the SAAMI tables, those values are reached by different methods.

[Outpost75]

Specs of the 110-grain +P+ .38 Special load from the Winchester Law Enforcement web page:

Winchester 38 Special +P+ (110) JHP
Symbol: RA38110HP+ – Winchester Ranger Jacketed Hollow Point
Shellcase: 38 Special +P+ nickel plated brass shellcase
Bullet: 110 grain (7.1 gram) Jacketed Hollow Point, Brass jacket, lead core
Diameter 0.357 inch (9.07 mm)
Powder: Clean burning, low flash
Primer: Winchester non-corrosive primer – boxer type
Accuracy: Product Mean of 2.5 inch (6.4 cm) Extreme Spread
5 shot targets at 50 yards (45.7 m) from a 7.71 inch (19.6 cm) SAAMI test barrel
Velocity: 990 ft/sec (302 m/s) nominal at 15 ft (4.6 m) Fired in a S&W Model 15 revolver
with 2 inch (5.1 cm) barrel

Energy: 239 ft-lb (324 joules)

Pressure: 23,500 psi max. average (1,621 bars)

Waterproofing: Lacquer applied to primer annulus and Black Lucas applied to mouth of case

RA38110HP+ PRODUCT INFORMATION SHEET #270
Rev. - 6-7-2005

INFORMATION PUBLISHED HEREIN IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE AT MANUFACTURER’S DISCRETION WITHOUT NOTICE.

OLIN CORPORATION • WINCHESTER DIVISION • 427 NORTH SHAMROCK STREET • EAST ALTON, IL 62024
WEB SITE: www.winchester.com

[Petrol & Powder]

Thank You Outpost, and just to be clear, that +P+ designation for that RA38110HP+ Winchester Ranger Jacketed Hollow point, is a Winchester Ammunition designation; not a SAAMI pressure category.

Correct?

[Outpost75]

Thank You Outpost, and just to be clear, that +P+ designation for that RA38110HP+ Winchester Ranger Jacketed Hollow point, is a Winchester Ammunition designation; not a SAAMI pressure category.

Correct?

Correct. Based on U.S. Treasury Department and U.S. Customs and Border Patrol spec. first revision originally dating from mid-1970s, subsequently revised concurrent with adoption of piezoelectric methods of pressure measurement as prescribed by ANSI Std. Z39.18 as standardized in the 1980s.

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a434627.pdf

[roysha]

Why would anyone want to shoot full power loads exclusively? To me this is akin to having a 550hp Corvette and leaving each and every stop sign or light, with the "pedal to the metal". Sure a few times it would be fun but after that it's kinda senseless.

I understand shooting them, full house magnum loads, often enough to be proficient with that load but for the rest of the time a reasonable 357 load, comparable to an average 38 SPEC load would give one plenty of trigger time and be fun to boot. I have put 10s of thousands of rounds through my 2 M-629-1s over the last 30+ years and 99.99% of them were comparable to a hot 44 SPEC load. Both guns are still in service although I did have to shim for end shake on one of them.

[Old School Big Bore]

As a longtime LE agency rangemaster, instructor, armorer etc I can tell you that the 19, 66, et al were meant to be, not exactly 'carried much and shot little', but shot more with training ammo such as .38 wadcutters than with full .357s, as most of the replies here have said. I've spent my life in medium-to-large Sheriff's Departments, not Federal agencies, and have had to battle for ammo dollars with administrators whose only concerns WERE those dollars. Even though I have always pushed for using carry ammo for official quals, when the boss says "shoot these!", you shoot 'em.
At any rate, my 66 has had a steady diet of .38 wadcutters because once I could carry whatever I wanted (44s & 45s), I have only used it as a competition gun in our local LE matches. I know it's had several thousand through it, and it hasn't displayed any signs of being worn out, but I retired it to plinkin'/family training status and found a 686 to use in the matches. Actually, I had the 686 match-ified and I'd really like for it to stay that way, so I only shoot full .357s through a 5" 27, which mostly stays busy being the only safe queen I'll tolerate, because, well, it's a 5" 27, okay? The 66 will get a 'yard period' eventually but I'm in no rush to send it in.
Long story short, shoot .38s in your 19 and since you already have a 686, use it when you get the urge to let off some .357s. You'll be happier in the long run.

[arlon]

I like a heavy bullet and less pressure. The recoil is also easier on my hands for basically the same power. Those light bullets and high pressures are just too snappy to be much fun for me in a light revolver. I have N frames for that. Model 13 and 19 are the only K-frame 357s I own and they never see a full power 357 (light or heavy bullet). Also haven't broken either of them.

[Petrol & Powder]

As a longtime LE agency rangemaster, instructor, armorer etc I can tell you that the 19, 66, et al were meant to be, not exactly 'carried much and shot little', but shot more with training ammo such as .38 wadcutters than with full .357s, as most of the replies here have said. I've spent my life in medium-to-large Sheriff's Departments, not Federal agencies, and have had to battle for ammo dollars with administrators whose only concerns WERE those dollars. Even though I have always pushed for using carry ammo for official quals, when the boss says "shoot these!", you shoot 'em.
At any rate, my 66 has had a steady diet of .38 wadcutters because once I could carry whatever I wanted (44s & 45s), I have only used it as a competition gun in our local LE matches. I know it's had several thousand through it, and it hasn't displayed any signs of being worn out, but I retired it to plinkin'/family training status and found a 686 to use in the matches. Actually, I had the 686 match-ified and I'd really like for it to stay that way, so I only shoot full .357s through a 5" 27, which mostly stays busy being the only safe queen I'll tolerate, because, well, it's a 5" 27, okay? The 66 will get a 'yard period' eventually but I'm in no rush to send it in.
Long story short, shoot .38s in your 19 and since you already have a 686, use it when you get the urge to let off some .357s. You'll be happier in the long run.

[Dale53]

I had a 6" Model 19 and it shot extremely well for me. I mostly ran .38's but did use a goodly number of 158 gr. home cast bullets at magnum velocities in mine. Mine was more than satisfactory. However, when the information began to surface of cracked barrels, etc. I got a bit nervous. I decided to get rid of my Model 19 when the 686 appeared. I ended up with more than one 686 and have been completely satisfied and have shot mine a LOT!

However, I still have one "new in the box" Model 19. It is a Texas Ranger Commemorative inherited from my Step-Father. I am much more of a shooter than a collector and looked many times at the 19 with a strong desire to put it into service. However, my step-father was so proud of owning this particular piece that, I just cannot bring myself to shoot it (or use the beautiful Bowie knife that is part of the package). Such is life...

Dale53

[Drm50]

I have three 6" m19s and have never fired a magnum load or a jacketed bullet. I don't know how many 4" and snubbies I have owned just in last year. None bought new and most 19-3 or older. My point being that I am aware of forcing cone issue but have never seen it on a S&W 19. I have seen it on Charter Arms and a High standard 357 stub nose. Both of guns had fired nothing but Win 110gr factories. Thing is knowing the owners I would say the damage was done with 1000rds or less. The owner of the Hi-St bought a Ruger Speed-6 and kept on with 110gr Win and as far as I know it's still going strong. I'm wondering how many mag rounds it takes to do in a m19? The average joe that buys a 19 for SD is lucky to fire 50rds of mag loads. If they do any extra shooting it's usually with cheapest 38sp loads they can buy. I don't doubt m19s are victims of this but I believe it is not common because how many are going to have enough hot rounds through them to cause this?

On the other side of the coin guys by a new X magnum revolver and the first thing out of their mouth is they are looking for a load to jack it up to the performance of the next magnum up the ladder. I'm a S&W fan of P&R era guns. However while they are hard to beat for accuracy the swing out cylinder design will fail if they are shot extensively with full power magnum loads. I have never owned a J frame 357 so I can't comment on them but I do most of my 357 shooting with m27 and with WC target loads. The 19s get the least use because the 14s do same job and seem to be more accurate. I have only adj sight models of S&Ws in 6" & 8 3/8" barrels in K &N frames. I have one of each sighted for a heavy cast load but not necessarily the max. These are reserved for hunting and aren't shot that much. I only own one revolver that is tuned with full power magnum loads and JHP
bullets, a 3screw Ruger my main deer pistol.

[Tatume]

I have a friend whose first job as a newly minted gunsmith was repairing cracked barrels and frames in S&W Model 19 revolvers. The barrels were replaced with factory new barrels, and frames were welded, tempered, and polished. He got lots of practice.

[dogdoc]

I know forcing cones have cracked but it is rare. I have a 4 inch 66 I have been trying to break since I purchased it new in about 1983. I have shot the hell out of it with all kind of loads but like a timex watch, it keeps on ticking. Read the handloader magazine article by Brian Pearce on the model 19. He put 5000 full power rounds through one before it needed some tune up. I have 686s, ruger security sixes, and a colt python. The 66 and 19s feel the best and I think the most delicate is a colt python(overpriced). By the way, the later ruger security sixes have a flat filed at six o’clock and they do not have a cracking problem. I security sixes with and with out the flat. They moved the gas ring later requiring the flat

[Norske]

My FIL cracked the rear of the barrel of his Model 19. S&W repaired it and their letter accompanying the returned revolver said the damage was due to shooting 125gr HP ammo. They suggested nothing but soft 158gr lead bullets and prictice with 38SP, carry with magnums. I now have the lovely revolver, and it doesn't get magnum ammo any more.

[Outpost75]

I know forcing cones have cracked but it is rare....

By the way, the later ruger security sixes have a flat filed at six o’clock and they do not have a cracking problem...

On the S&W K-frames failure rate was about 50% in FLETC 5000-round endurance test done on 30 guns over the course of 30 days production, testing one gun at random selected from incoming receiving lots each day.

Flat on Ruger Six barrels was not "filed," but milled. Also the barrel extension was induction heat treated and oil quenched before turning the barrel into the frame with anti-seize, which is why they are less prone to fail.

Whether Ruger barrels have the flat or not depends upon the contract specs. and ammunition specified. Civilian revolvers for commercial sale may be of either type, depending upon what was available, unless a distributor ordered a specific type.