Clearly a design change on the later 1980s ruger production as I have both and the gas ring is on the cylinder on the later ones. Now if ruger would make them both ways at the same time for different customers, I do not know?Originally Posted by Outpost75
Also what difference if filed or milled? I have a milling machine and you are removing metal either way.
Skilled hand filing can do it, but from my observations of the product produced by trained monkeys at S&W you cannot depend upon it. Most important at Ruger was online statistical process control to maintain minimum required clearance with the cylinder hub, while ensuring adequate wall thickness and then controlling differential heat treatment to provide the required strength to resist plastic deformation which otherwise resulted in ductile failure. I was QA manager for Newport Operations from 1984-87 during the French, India, RUC, DOS-Security and US CBP orders and have personal knowledge of exactly how it was done.
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A lot of good info already, but consider the following:
Our understanding of terminal ballistics has improved A LOT since the '86 Miami shooting gave us the modern gelatin testing protocols. It's pretty much come down to "shoot accurately, penetrate deep enough, and not worry about expansion/diameter too much". We've gotten away from the idea of hydrostatic shock (in handguns) and "knockdown power", which were the two big perceived selling points of full-tilt .357 ammo back in the day. Current conventional wisdom suggests a good 9mm projectile is about as good as anything, and that even your pokey old heavy bullet 600-700 fps Webley, .44 Specials, etc... will do just fine. If you look at the old .38 +P 158 grain LSWCHP at about 850-900 fps (the "FBI Load"), it looks a lot like a current day 147 grain 9mm JHP, which by some estimates is about a 90% one-shot stopper.
By that logic, the only remaining reason to firewall a .357 Magnum is to improve trajectory for long range purposes - like well in excess of 100 yards.
When you also consider that the previously posted concept of 1 round of .357 to 6 rounds of .38 in an active police training cycle also took into account the notion that the guns would be regularly replaced on some kind of trade-out cycle; and that today we're in the mode of preservation for the long haul, I see no real sense in running the hot stuff in a K-frame at all. The world is full of L-frames, N-frames, and Rugers for that sort of thing.
WWJMBD?
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^^^What BigSlug Said!^^^
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Reading all these post would make you think model 19s and 66s are delicate . It just ain’t so. I shoot mostly 1000 to 1200fps 158 grain loads in mine which are not powder puffs but not full out magnums either. For every one that cracked a cone, there are many many more that have not. Most of us do not shoot enough or will not live long enough to wear one out especially with intermediate level loads. You do not have to shoot only light 38 spl in the guns, I know I have not limited mine to that and it is fine. This issue, in my opinion, is blown way way way out of proportion on the internet. Hell, if one breaks, buy another or buy one of the new ones with the shrouded barrel.
And the lifetime free-repair policy.
The Model 19 was deliberately made as light and small as it was so it would be comfortable for a uniformed police officer to carry all day. In most cases it would also fit existing Model 15 holsters as well. Life is a compromise, and this is just another example.
This thread is going on and on, and most of it has been said. I own several Model 19s and 66s and use them as their creators intended. I almost always shoot .38 Specials in them, but take comfort in knowing that they have the magnum potential if needed. I think that Bill Jordon would agree with me. He envisioned needing a .357 Magnum for law enforcement and self-defense purposes, but just how often did he, or anyone else, need to shoot someone? And, in all of his countless exhibitions and demonstrations he used .38 Specials and wax bullets. Due to great improvements in projectiles available for the .38 Special, my once vote of no confidence in the .38 has now become positive, and I find myself shooting such things as the Model 10 and 15 with much greater confidence in their stopping ability than I had in the past, and actually rarely breaking out the magnums at all. But -- I used to shoot them a lot, and never had a split forcing cone. It has happened, I know.
The lifetime free repair applies ONLY as long as it can be done using factory parts as available. The Model 19 went through various engineering changes over its years of production and factory parts for guns made before the mid-1980s may be problematic. I know several people who returned 19s to the S&W factory for repair and their guns were returned indicating that required obsolete parts were no longer available.
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I don't expect S&W to run out of parts for new, current production guns anytime soon.
Once a model goes out of production or undergoes a major engineering change, you can depend upon customer service repair parts being available for about ten years. After that all bets are off.
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Agree 100 percent. I have k,l,and n frame 357 magnums as well as Ruger security six s. To me, nothing feels as good as that k frame magnum as far as balance and action. I think I will load some midrange magnums tonight and see if I can crack the forcing cone shooting it later this week. I am not holding my breath!
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Any S&W purchased before February 1, 1989 is no longer covered under warranty.
https://www.smith-wesson.com/customer-service/warranty
Smith & Wesson’s Lifetime Service Policy begins after the warranty period has expired. Smith & Wesson will repair, without charge, for the lifetime of the original owner, any Smith & Wesson handgun purchased on or after February 1, 1989, and any M&P15 series rifle, that is found to have a defect in material or workmanship. Eligibility for this Lifetime Service Policy requires returning the Product Registration Card within 30 days of purchase.
Last edited by M-Tecs; 08-19-2019 at 07:34 PM.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
I have personally seen 3 or 4 Model 19's that had throat cracks. Two belonged to LE friends that shot a lot of department issue Mag. ammo. The other one or two were at a gun show and it possible it was the same one. I have a couple of 66's. They are my favorite revolvers but they are paper punchers and they live a very pampered life.
The question that I have is did the 66 have the same issues of throat cracks?
The web is indicating it is more of an issue with the 19's.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...-cones.554994/
https://www.smithandwessonforums.com...urability.html
Last edited by M-Tecs; 08-19-2019 at 08:24 PM.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
The answer is YES, the stainless steel models 65 & 66 had the same forcing cone issues as the carbon steel models 13 & 19.
The stainless steel used in the barrels of those models is believed to be a bit more resistant to gas cutting and that's likely true. However, that tougher steel alone is not enough to prevent the problem. I've seen cracked forcing cones on both blued and stainless K-frames. I cannot say that the stainless guns cracked after the same number of rounds but the issue persisted even with the introduction of stainless steel. The problem was addressed in the L-frames, both blued and stainless models, with a thicker cross section at the forcing cone and other design changes. The K-frame was an outstanding design but it just cannot handle large round counts of magnum rounds. Shorter (lighter) bullets only aggravate the situation. The design is not at all weak - it just wasn't strong enough when pushed to magnum levels.
A 1/2" drive craftsmen ratchet will likely last a lifetime but if you start putting a 6' piece of pipe on it and applying all of your strength to it- you may find that it doesn't last as long. That's not a design flaw, it's just pushing it beyond what it was originally intended to do.
Yes some cracked but for that 3 or 4 You have seen, I have seen countless examples that were not cracked. I think I own 5 or 6. I do think when they changed from cup to psi, they toned down pressures in the 357 magnum. Just look at some old loading manuals. Of course even then(and I probably loaded some of those in the early 1980s for my 4 inch 66) those loads were not blowing up guns but they may have contributed to the problems. I think lower pressures are why they can get away with j frame and other smaller frame 357 mags. That is just speculation of course. Look how thin a forcing cone is on a j frame. Again, this issue is blown out of proportion on the internet in my opinion.
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/\ THIS IS NOT ACCURATE /\
The method to test the pressure was changed, the standard was not changed.
If you have car that has a maximum top speed of 153 Kilometers per hour and then you change the speedometer to one that measures in miles per hour and it shows the car has a top speed of 95 MPH; you haven't changed anything !
The .357 magnum was not downloaded when the method of measuring pressures changed from CUP to PSI.
I don't know how accurate this info is but it does reflect the claims in the gun rags in the mid 90's.
https://rugerforum.net/reloading/103...s-manuals.html
It's confusing ... prior to 1995, all SAAMI pressure ratings were stated in CUP, which stands for Copper Units of Pressure. At the time, a crude method was used to determine pressure by using a pure copper pellet in a pressure barrel. The pellet was measured before and after firing a cartridge and was "crushed" a certain amount in the process (thus the name "Crusher Method") and the amount it was crushed determined the pressure. At the time, 357 Magnums had a maximum SAAMI pressure rating of 46,000 CUP.
Beginning in 1995, SAAMI approved a new and much more accurate way of measuring chamber pressure using a piezo transducer connected to electronic equipment. This method produces a very accurate measurement and is rated in pounds per square inch (psi). Under this new method, 43,500 psi was the same as the old 46,000 CUP.
For many years, S&W had been having problems with their K-frame 357 Mag revolvers (Mod 19 and 66) and their N-frame 44 Mag revolvers (Mod 29 and 629) where the current SAAMI pressures would shorten the life of the guns and in some cases, cause catastrophic failures. So ... S&W petitioned SAAMI to lower pressure standards for both cartridges. As a result, SAAMI lowered 357 Mag pressure by about 20% to 35,000 psi and 44 Mags were dropped about 10% (from 40,000 psi to 36,000 psi). SAAMI still has the old standards on the books but by 1996, nearly all ammo manufacturers went to the new 35,000 psi standard as did nearly all newly published reloading manuals.
When you see pressure rated in CUP, it is old data that has not been tested with modern methods. All new test data is rated in psi. If you look through a newer reloading manual, some of the less popular loads are still rated in CUP but each time a manual is updated, more and more of the loads have been retested and are now rated in psi.
Case in point: If you look at an old Speer #11 manual published in 1987, the max load for a 357 Mag with 158gr bullets was 17.8gr of W-296 @ 1326 fps. In Speer's current #14 manual (published in 2008), that same load has been reduced to 14.7gr of W-296 @ 1185 fps. So ... a 20% reduction in pressure made about 11% difference in velocity.
BTW, your referenced 42,900 CUP load would be about 40,500 psi ... way too hot by today's standards.
Last edited by M-Tecs; 08-19-2019 at 10:05 PM.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
Unless my car will now only 85 and then I have changed something (like decreased horsepower).
I understand the method was changed but the new psi level of 35000 psi could be lower than a load that was originally measured in cup. The load books support this as well in that . If you measure some of those early 1970s loads in psi, they would be higher than the current level of 35000 psi. Reference Handloader magazine number 302 page 37 ,an article by Brian Pearce on the 357 for further explanation if needed.
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We are all hopeless gun and reloading junkies arguing minutia most would not understand but it is fun
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I don't know how to make this any simpler: PSI and CUP are not interchangeable.
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