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Thread: I'm a pagan too

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    But according to law at 17 he was not considered an adult.
    He was deemed by others old enough to kill people and to be killed but he was not old enough to vote.

    You do not get so many brownie points if you are a kid since by definition you may not be responsible for what you do.
    You do if you're Jewish and therefore reach the age of majority at 13, 12 if you're a girl. Not that this is necessarily any recommendation. It does seem preposterous though that a single day can suddenly bring adulthood.

    I'm reminded of a police officer who late one evening, about half past eleven, checked out a car parked on a car park. In the drivers seat was a young man chewing gum and reading a magazine. In the back was a young girl sat knitting. The police officer thought this a bit suspicious and asked the girl how old she was. She looked at her watch and said "I'll be sixteen in about half an hour." (Sixteen is the age of consent in the UK)

  2. #22
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    Imagine if God had woke up one morning and thought to himself "I'll make some humans. I wonder what they'll do if I just leave them to get on with things. Could be interesting to watch."

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Jaque Janaviac View Post
    I am still trying to make sense of the OP. A 7 minute excerpt of a movie I never saw?
    It's a clip from near the end of "Breaker Morant". It's a good movie and pretty much provides the entire plot for the later movie "A few Good Men".

    I'm not sure why the OP choose that clip but the movie deals with the execution of Harry "Breaker" Morant in the second Boer War in South Africa in 1902. One of the many memorable lines is: "We caught them and we shot them under rule Three O Three" referring to the .303 Cartridge used by the British.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    Oh not at all bubba. You make an argument that you are an adult at 17 yet the law says you are not.
    What I said flew right over your head. Just because you volunteered at 17 did not make you special in the eyes of the law. You do not get extra points for that. When you volunteered you were still a 17 year old who was in my dad's words "young and stupid". He fought the Japanese nearly 2.5 years (Guadalcanal, Tarawa and Saipan), was nearly killed several times, was wounded and sent home permanently disabled. He was back in high school in 1945. He was not yet 21 and he was still not old enough to vote or buy beer.
    That much is clear in black and white. It is very apparent that you have no real argument at all.
    You cannot even grasp the contradiction of being commanded to kill someone yet you do not have the right to vote....give us a break
    What in the world does the question of whether a man's an adult at 17 or not, have to do with a discussion that's SUPPOSED to be about faith????

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimB.. View Post
    EDG, who said that God is in control? If he/she was, then there wouldnít be evil, and as you know there is plenty of evil. God has a plan, Iíve found it best to listen quietly and try to stay as close to plan as possible, not to please or appease a magic wizard in the sky, but because it makes my life more enjoyable in the long term. Of course I screw it up all the time, itís part of being human. Heck, here are days when I wonder if my entire part in his plan is to be the bad example for someone else, to be the guy that screws up and pays the price, allowing others to learn from my mistakes. Iíve generally decided that we each take turns in that role.

    FWIW, I think that my uncle had a story similar to your fathers, although the details were never known except from investigations undertaken after he died. He came home from the war, the only survivor of four brothers that served in europe and africa, and heíd done and seen terrible things. (the only brother that didnít serve had lost a lung in childhood) Physically he was fine, but he lived in a room that he rented in a small house from the day he returned till the day he died. He had no children which isnít surprising because he did not speak. Nobody ever knew what was in his head or what it was that he couldnít say. He worked menial jobs and lived a simple life, almost certainly tormented every hour of every day by the memories of what heíd done and what heíd seen, heard, felt, and even smelled.

    Life isnít fair, and I get that youíre angry about what your father did and what was asked of him, but neither that nor the evil that caused those terrible decisions to be forced upon him at a young age is evidence that God does not exist.

    I am no evangelist, I am not well spoken, and I frankly have little concern over what you or anyone else chooses to believe. I think that a personís beliefs are something that they need to discover on their own. I wish you and your father all the best on your paths and only suggest that you try not to evaluate things looking through a fog of anger.
    What is it that makes you think that if God were God, He'd eliminate all evil from our realm???? If that was what He wanted, wouldn't He just have made us all appear in Heaven? Couldn't He then have dispensed with the whole Creation thing? Wouldn't that have been a lot less trouble???

    God allows evil in this world, and I believe it's due to Lucifer and his minions' rebellion, that made them have to be cast out of Heaven. When God created the universe, and then earth and then us, He could well have remembered that previous rebellion, and allowed evil in our world to see who'd follow evil, and who'd follow Him, and thereby, know who to allow into Heaven and who would only stop it from being a true Heaven. How's that for an explanation, sir? Do you require more?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKShootist View Post
    Imagine if God had woke up one morning and thought to himself "I'll make some humans. I wonder what they'll do if I just leave them to get on with things. Could be interesting to watch."
    God is not whimsical. He always has REASONS for whatever He does. Whether or not we here can perceive and figure those reasons out is quite another question. And He does NOT play tricks on us, or play with us. He is always serious, loving, kind, wise and just. What kind of god do you imagine???

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    God is not whimsical. He always has REASONS for whatever He does. Whether or not we here can perceive and figure those reasons out is quite another question. And He does NOT play tricks on us, or play with us. He is always serious, loving, kind, wise and just. What kind of god do you imagine???
    You will have accept that some of us don't agree with you on this and think that the belief you stated is just wishful thinking. We can believe that God cares very little about humans and doubt he feels much need to provide many of us with a life after death. Certainly not just for believing Jesus is Christ the Savior.

    Tim
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    You will have accept that some of us don't agree with you on this and think that the belief you stated is just wishful thinking. We can believe that God cares very little about humans and doubt he feels much need to provide many of us with a life after death. Certainly not just for believing Jesus is Christ the Savior.

    Tim
    That's why God made salvation so easy because he knew educated man would probably never willing accept it. But Biblical that all you have to do.

  9. #29
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    EDG
    God allows us to be who we want to be. Just as I base my beliefs on what I am exposed to,so are you. If God eliminated all evil he would slap me and you sideways everytime we had an evil thought. God allows us to act the way we want to act. God describes how he wants us to act in his word to us-the Bible.
    How do you expect God to guide the life of Hilter and other murderers but you are apparentely are not in perfect obedience to his plan? God would need to guide everyones life every moment of every day to prevent all evil. He does not and allows us freewill until he decides to bring his judgement on mankind.
    The emperor of Japan thought he was God and persauded men that death before surrender was honorable. Thus many of his soldiers would not surrender and fought to the death or commited suicide.
    What our military had to do to stop the Japanese was horrific but they wanted to take over a large part of the world and deprive millions of their freedom.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    What is it that makes you think that if God were God, He'd eliminate all evil from our realm???? If that was what He wanted, wouldn't He just have made us all appear in Heaven? Couldn't He then have dispensed with the whole Creation thing? Wouldn't that have been a lot less trouble???

    God allows evil in this world, and I believe it's due to Lucifer and his minions' rebellion, that made them have to be cast out of Heaven. When God created the universe, and then earth and then us, He could well have remembered that previous rebellion, and allowed evil in our world to see who'd follow evil, and who'd follow Him, and thereby, know who to allow into Heaven and who would only stop it from being a true Heaven. How's that for an explanation, sir? Do you require more?
    I don’t find your assumptions about God, your reasoning or your beliefs about salvation compelling, but I understand what you’re saying and do not require more. As I said, I am neither a biblical scholar nor evangelist, I feel no compulsion whatsoever to try to convince you of anything. My post was intended to help the OP, not spark a debate about beliefs.

  11. #31
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    So your god is the god of the Epicurean Paradox?
    Is that what you are saying? You are saying your omnipotent god is too lazy to make his sheep behave?

    If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to

    Then He is not omnipotent.

    If He is able, but not willing

    Then He is malevolent.

    If He is both able and willing

    Then whence cometh evil.

    If He is neither able nor willing

    Then why call Him God?

    No I cannot be in obedience - I do not recognize your god exists.
    Your entire train of logic makes no sense. Apparently you think your god can sit on his haunches and do nothing for 2000 years or so after "publishing" the Bible - sort of like Pontius Pilate right?
    Like I have said here before "free will" is just a red herring. It is a somewhat goofy concept since all humans regardless of their religion or lack there of have free will. But so do cats and dogs and every other creature with anything resembling a brain.



    Quote Originally Posted by wv109323 View Post
    EDG
    God allows us to be who we want to be. Just as I base my beliefs on what I am exposed to,so are you. If God eliminated all evil he would slap me and you sideways everytime we had an evil thought. God allows us to act the way we want to act. God describes how he wants us to act in his word to us-the Bible.
    How do you expect God to guide the life of Hilter and other murderers but you are apparentely are not in perfect obedience to his plan? God would need to guide everyones life every moment of every day to prevent all evil. He does not and allows us freewill until he decides to bring his judgement on mankind.
    The emperor of Japan thought he was God and persauded men that death before surrender was honorable. Thus many of his soldiers would not surrender and fought to the death or commited suicide.
    What our military had to do to stop the Japanese was horrific but they wanted to take over a large part of the world and deprive millions of their freedom.
    EDG

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    So your god is the god of the Epicurean Paradox?
    Is that what you are saying? You are saying your omnipotent god is too lazy to make his sheep behave?

    If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to

    Then He is not omnipotent.

    If He is able, but not willing

    Then He is malevolent.

    If He is both able and willing

    Then whence cometh evil.

    If He is neither able nor willing

    Then why call Him God?

    No I cannot be in obedience - I do not recognize your god exists.
    Your entire train of logic makes no sense. Apparently you think your god can sit on his haunches and do nothing for 2000 years or so after "publishing" the Bible - sort of like Pontius Pilate right?
    Like I have said here before "free will" is just a red herring. It is a somewhat goofy concept since all humans regardless of their religion or lack there of have free will. But so do cats and dogs and every other creature with anything resembling a brain.

    Hang in there you may yet come to understand someday. It's so simple that most people have a hard time with salvation. Read the Book of John (KJB)

  13. #33
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    Why don't you try reading more than the one book? Your book does not teach critical thinking or logic.
    You can learn much more logic from an algebra or physics book.
    Why don't you exercise your mind a little. Look at the web pages that discuss some of the contradictions in your bible. So in other words why don't you read and understand your own bible? It is apparent that you only believe easy to read stuff and you refuse to deal with the contradictions.
    I will note that apparently you are not blessed with the wisdom to answer the questions posed by the Epicurean Paradox. Why not answer them if your god has the answer to all questions?

    Quote Originally Posted by dannyd View Post
    Hang in there you may yet come to understand someday. It's so simple that most people have a hard time with salvation. Read the Book of John (KJB)
    EDG

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    Why don't you try reading more than the one book? Your book does not teach critical thinking or logic.
    You can learn much more logic from an algebra or physics book.
    Why don't you exercise your mind a little. Look at the web pages that discuss some of the contradictions in your bible. So in other words why don't you read and understand your own bible? It is apparent that you only believe easy to read stuff and you refuse to deal with the contradictions.
    I will note that apparently you are not blessed with the wisdom to answer the questions posed by the Epicurean Paradox. Why not answer them if your god has the answer to all questions?
    If your dad was a WW2 veteran then your a Baby Boomer. We may be members of the Dumbest Generation in History. Just look at our Cell Phone adds on TV. If you don't like John then Try JOB (KJB) great book. You have to be getting long in the tooth just trying to help before Hospice Nurse calls your name. All you have to have is a repentant Heart. Like many Baby Boomer's you may be over thinking it.

  15. #35
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    Some folks won't like that I am gonna call it like I am seeing it....

    I don't see a "Deep Theological Discussion" topic here.

    I see a "Here is my outlook, and you can't get me to change my mind, or look at other possibilities, so Nah nah Nah", topic.

    I don't see why it is not in the Pit after the posts I have read from some here.

    Perhaps I am pessimistic about this topic & why it is still going on.

    It is an atheist, agnostic, or the like, who seems, IMO of course, to be trolling/baiting Christians for kicks, or something along those lines, and it sure seems that the OPs position is not likely to change based on the replies I have read.

    I do not see an open mind or heart from the OP, leading me to believe that the OPs mind or heart will be changed or even wants to change by anything offered here.

    It seems to be like the saying, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink." when it comes to things like this.

    What, if anything, is getting accomplished here? ( <rhetorical)

    I do applaud the efforts though, of the Christians who are surely trying to help. Even though I think it is sure appearing to be a waste of time. Sometimes trying to help does not work... The person who one is trying to help "needs to want" the help. I do not see that here...

    So I guess I will just go get more & wait to see how long this lasts....

    I am not gonna wait around to see any replies to this post in particular. I will just check back some time to see if the topic is still here & see what happens...
    2nd Amend./U.S. Const. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

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    Restore the Republic!!!

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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    Why don't you try reading more than the one book? Your book does not teach critical thinking or logic.
    You can learn much more logic from an algebra or physics book.
    Why don't you exercise your mind a little. Look at the web pages that discuss some of the contradictions in your bible. So in other words why don't you read and understand your own bible? It is apparent that you only believe easy to read stuff and you refuse to deal with the contradictions.
    I will note that apparently you are not blessed with the wisdom to answer the questions posed by the Epicurean Paradox. Why not answer them if your god has the answer to all questions?
    ED, I love you man but I find the flood of snarky posts from you (and others like you) so foolish it's amusing.

    You hold those who disagree with you as intellectually contemptible. You inject everything you can into your intellectual posts trying to impress all of us how really smart you are, knowing all the while that we disagree with your well stated smartness. Why in the world do you waste your valuable time almost feverishly striving to insult us meer mental midgets into submission?

    Forgive me but I THINK if you were even nearly as brilliant as you presume, you would know you're spinning your wheels trying to smear us into silence. You don't seem to get that we Christians are happy and cranky ol' coots like you are not!

    As much as we would like to, we don't have to prove a thing to you; we Christians know what we know and we know that you don't, okay? So, continue to post whatever you will but I have to wonder what mental games you're playing with yourself and what do you hope to accomplish with your constant stream of amusing teenage debate team put-downs?
    Last edited by 1hole; 08-19-2019 at 06:27 PM.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Jaque Janaviac View Post
    A 7 minute excerpt of a movie I never saw?
    That's too bad.
    Former cylindersmith.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBinMN View Post
    Some folks won't like that I am gonna call it like I am seeing it....

    I don't see a "Deep Theological Discussion" topic here.

    I see a "Here is my outlook, and you can't get me to change my mind, or look at other possibilities, so Nah nah Nah", topic.

    I don't see why it is not in the Pit after the posts I have read from some here.

    Perhaps I am pessimistic about this topic & why it is still going on.

    It is an atheist, agnostic, or the like, who seems, IMO of course, to be trolling/baiting Christians for kicks, or something along those lines, and it sure seems that the OPs position is not likely to change based on the replies I have read.

    I do not see an open mind or heart from the OP, leading me to believe that the OPs mind or heart will be changed or even wants to change by anything offered here.

    It seems to be like the saying, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink." when it comes to things like this.

    What, if anything, is getting accomplished here? ( <rhetorical)

    I do applaud the efforts though, of the Christians who are surely trying to help. Even though I think it is sure appearing to be a waste of time. Sometimes trying to help does not work... The person who one is trying to help "needs to want" the help. I do not see that here...

    So I guess I will just go get more & wait to see how long this lasts....

    I am not gonna wait around to see any replies to this post in particular. I will just check back some time to see if the topic is still here & see what happens...


    Exactly...he has no point other than creating discord...

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBinMN View Post
    It is an atheist, agnostic, or the like, who seems, IMO of course, to be trolling/baiting Christians for kicks, or something along those lines, and it sure seems that the OPs position is not likely to change based on the replies I have read.
    And there you illustrate perfectly the problem, at least for me. I am genuinely and deeply interested in religion. Not just Christianity. I am also interested in the concept of faith, which is something of mystery to me. The trouble seems to come, almost predictably, with the awkward questions and what seems to me, and many others I am sure, some utter illogicality of some of the faithful. As such I feel my curiosity is disposed of with contempt by people who really do not know the answers to my questions. They are inconvenient.

    I have said elsewhere that I can accept that my beliefs in scientific subjects might be wrong because if they are proved to be wrong, that is called learning. I believe the difficulty for someone who has 'faith' which by definition has to lack solid evidence, is that challenges to their faith threatens their whole world. When you just believe, if your belief is overcome you whole world is damaged, so it is easier to ignore the challenge, to dismiss it as mischief, which saves having to seriously consider what must be an unpleasant possibility.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    What is it that makes you think that if God were God, He'd eliminate all evil from our realm???? If that was what He wanted, wouldn't He just have made us all appear in Heaven? Couldn't He then have dispensed with the whole Creation thing? Wouldn't that have been a lot less trouble???

    God allows evil in this world, and I believe it's due to Lucifer and his minions' rebellion, that made them have to be cast out of Heaven. When God created the universe, and then earth and then us, He could well have remembered that previous rebellion, and allowed evil in our world to see who'd follow evil, and who'd follow Him, and thereby, know who to allow into Heaven and who would only stop it from being a true Heaven. How's that for an explanation, sir? Do you require more?
    If God eliminated evil he would have to eliminate free will. There is no good without evil no love without hate no light without dark. Even God cannot move an immovable object.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

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