I'm a pagan too

[Blackwater]

Imagine if God had woke up one morning and thought to himself "I'll make some humans. I wonder what they'll do if I just leave them to get on with things. Could be interesting to watch."

God does not amuse Himself by playing games with His Creations. But you obviously didn't know that.

[Blackwater]

You will have accept that some of us don't agree with you on this and think that the belief you stated is just wishful thinking. We can believe that God cares very little about humans and doubt he feels much need to provide many of us with a life after death. Certainly not just for believing Jesus is Christ the Savior.

Tim

No, DT, it's not just "wishful thinking." But that certainly can't and won't stop you from seeing whatever you wish to see. You seem to wish for a "big daddy in the sky" kind of God, who will pamper you by giving you whatever you want. When we do that with our real children, we usually get spoiled brats as a result. Maybe God is just a tad smarter and more loving than you are????

[Blackwater]

EDG: So your god is the god of the Epicurean Paradox?
Is that what you are saying? You are saying your omnipotent god is too lazy to make his sheep behave?

BW: What makes you think that it would be good or desirable to have God make our decisions FOR us, instead of having given us the option of whether to follow Him or not????

EDG: If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.

BW: And you're just silly! Just because God is omnipotent, does NOT mean He must dictate every little jot and tittle of what you or I choose to do. He gave us the freedom to choose whether or not to follow Him, and the only other supernatural entity around for those who don't choose God is Satan, who was once one of God's chief angels, but now is evil incarnate. You choose your way, and I'll most certainly choose mine.

EDG: If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.

BW: That's your foolish and gravely narrow interpretation of the matter. Not mine.

EDG: If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil.

BW: Evil comes from the willful and rebellious nature of man's hearts. But you try to blame it on God!!!!!! Get real! If this is the most illustrative "thought" you can come up with, you are really in lower grade school, and need help to progress! Maybe some formal training in logic?

EDG: If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God?

BW: Once again, and it's not a difficult concept to understand and remember, just because God is omnipotent does NOT mean that He should feel any obligation to make our decisions FOR us. He gave us free will, so we can choose to follow Him or whatever else we may choose to follow. This is likely a means by which He determines who is suitable for Heaven, and who must be remanded to hell, with the devil and his minions. If we didn't choose Him, Heaven couldn't be Heaven any more with the recalcitrant and unruly there. So He has no choice but to separate the wheat from the chaff, and each of us gets to choose our fate. You have chosen your way, and I mine. God be with you. I hope you see the light before your time comes. I honestly do.

EDG: No I cannot be in obedience - I do not recognize your god exists.
Your entire train of logic makes no sense.

BW: It may not make sense to you, what with your expectations of some sort of god who'll do everything FOR us. Tell me, if you can, why would God go to all the trouble to create this world, and THEN, march us around like chess pieces or toy soldiers???? Doesn't it make a lot more sense to give us a free will, and let US decide who we'll follow? How can you not understand this very simple logic????

EDG: Apparently you think your god can sit on his haunches and do nothing for 2000 years or so after "publishing" the Bible - sort of like Pontius Pilate right?
Like I have said here before "free will" is just a red herring. It is a somewhat goofy concept since all humans regardless of their religion or lack there of have free will. But so do cats and dogs and every other creature with anything resembling a brain.

BW: But did you ever ask why we have a free will??? You on one hand, state that you want God to make our decisions FOR us, and then, you acknowledge that indeed, we all DO have free will. Why is that? It's you, my friend, who's not making sense! And you're all over the map, in fact, with your rambling and incredibly willful contentions. You've clearly made up your mind who you'll follow. Why is your business, but I confess, I have difficulty understanding why a man would choose as you obviously have. But then, it was never meant for me to understand everything. That's God's job. Not mine.

[cas]

But then, it was never meant for me to understand everything. That's God's job. Not mine.

Really? Do you read any of your own posts?

[Blackwater]

Why don't you try reading more than the one book? Your book does not teach critical thinking or logic.
You can learn much more logic from an algebra or physics book.
Why don't you exercise your mind a little. Look at the web pages that discuss some of the contradictions in your bible. So in other words why don't you read and understand your own bible? It is apparent that you only believe easy to read stuff and you refuse to deal with the contradictions.
I will note that apparently you are not blessed with the wisdom to answer the questions posed by the Epicurean Paradox. Why not answer them if your god has the answer to all questions?

Wow! Sp! Do you seriously contend that those of us here who have faith, have never read any other books??? That's about the silliest and most assumptive things I've ever read on this board! I don't think it needs further comment. Have YOU ever really read the Bible, is a much more appropo question! If indeed you haven't, and I suspect highly that you never have, then isn't it YOU who needs to explain yourself MUCH more fully? Isn't it YOU who claims to know all about something he elsewhere admits he doesn't understand???? Gee whiz, EDG, you cannot really be serious! And you obviously aren't judging from your posts. You admit you don't understand Christianity, you haven't read "the Book," and yet, you expect us or anyone else to regard you as THE authority on it all???? You're just being an egotiscical, presumptive fool in doing this. Go and get some understanding, and then we can talk. Until then, you're just babbling, sir. Sorry, but that's just the size of it.

[Blackwater]

And there you illustrate perfectly the problem, at least for me. I am genuinely and deeply interested in religion. Not just Christianity. I am also interested in the concept of faith, which is something of mystery to me. The trouble seems to come, almost predictably, with the awkward questions and what seems to me, and many others I am sure, some utter illogicality of some of the faithful. As such I feel my curiosity is disposed of with contempt by people who really do not know the answers to my questions. They are inconvenient.

I have said elsewhere that I can accept that my beliefs in scientific subjects might be wrong because if they are proved to be wrong, that is called learning. I believe the difficulty for someone who has 'faith' which by definition has to lack solid evidence, is that challenges to their faith threatens their whole world. When you just believe, if your belief is overcome you whole world is damaged, so it is easier to ignore the challenge, to dismiss it as mischief, which saves having to seriously consider what must be an unpleasant possibility.

UK, if you are truly interested in faith, then why is it that you dismiss it so readily and often? And too, are you seeking it with the intent of really finding true answers, or are you just studying it as an intellectual exercise? If you insist that the supernatural be confined to only terrestrial and "logical" parameters, then isn't it you who's being assumptive and eliminating any real chance of your finding real belief? And if you can't or don't find belief, then how can you claim to understand it? Belief and faith are things that you must "absorb," much as a form of "osmosis." But you can't intellectualize your way to understand or get real faith. It is beyond your mere logic or reason. It is beyond this world, so is in no way obliged to follow this world's rules. That's just how it is, and anyone who is unwilling to admit that there is, or at least MIGHT be, things beyond this earth that defy earthly explanation, can and will never receive salvation, or understand Christianity. You have drawn a fence around your willingness to see, and to understand and maybe even accept. So be it, but YOU put up the fences, and YOU will be held responsible for your decision.

However, if you decide to truly explore Christianity, then you will find Christ standing there right in front of you, and He'll never depart from you as long as you draw breath. I sincerely hope you decide to quit the fun and games, and really seek the actual, and everlasting Truth. It will be God, when you find it. But that remains for you to discover and prove for yourself.

We who believe do NOT do so without good and substantial REASONS. They may not be reasons you can understand, or maybe just don't want to accept, but they're still reasons just the same. And if anyone has zero reasons to doubt, it's you who have no faith in anything except doubt itself, and doubt is, ultimately, nothingness. Faith in nothingness is a LOT harder to explain than faith in Christ! MUCH harder!!!

You say that you are "interested" in faith, and desire to understand it. The only real way to understand it is to acquire it for yourself - something I honestly have to say that it appears you're averse to. But that's your issue. Not mine. I actually truly wish you all the best, and especially I hope you will one day, for some reason, truly seek the Truth with a capital "T." When you do, you'll understand a great many things that you claim to be mystified by now. God bless and keep you, my friend.

[Blackwater]

If God eliminated evil he would have to eliminate free will. There is no good without evil no love without hate no light without dark. Even God cannot move an immovable object.

Tim

Your view of a "limited and only partially powerful God" is not the same as mine, or the one in the Bible. I'll just leave it at that, and leave you to your own devices in searching further on the matter. You're not destined to find wisdom from anyone here. You seem to be the kind who must find his OWN answers, and will never trust the words of others, no matter how many of them agree on whatever precept you wish to bring up. God be with you, and I hope you find your key to it all.

[Combatmedic63]

To EDG:
My simple reply to all of your posts about the Bible, about Christ, about Salvation, etc...
Either accept Christ as your personal Savior and have your name permanently written in the Lamb's Book of Life or don't do it and wait for the end result. You will then have your definitive answer the moment you cease to exist. I will pray that you do accept Christ as your personal Savior because I don't want to see anyone suffer for eternity.

This is not a response to start another conversation, argument, disagreements or to garner a response. The choice to believe what you want to believe is yours. I guarantee you will find out if all of your beliefs were correct or incorrect when you take your last breath. My faith tells me you will be proven incorrect.

I, am a Christian, and I choose to believe in my God (freewill). The Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. Christ died for my sins and yours. I have experienced and will continue to experience the power of God in my life, the blessings, the peace, the healing, etc... Something I don't think you will ever experience but pray that you will.

[Wag]

Many or most of you know I'm not a believer. I normally don't get involved in too many religious (or political) discussions on line or in real life. Mostly because they devolve into backbiting, name calling and other assorted rancor.

I'm mostly not interested in that.

Very unfortunate that EDG believes that he's accomplished anything worthwhile by starting this thread.

--Wag--

[fixit]

At some point, one must decide to not feed the trolls. They tend to not care about the truth, in the end, and generally just enjoy keeping the argument going.

[Char-Gar]

I find this thread amazing, but not for the content. I am amazed at what a large percentage of the posters are on my Ignore List. I must be doing something right.

[armoredman]

I disagree. It is at least as germane as any other comment about those who do not believe in your imaginary friend in the heavens.

Pretty rude, amigo.

[JohnH]

EDG, who said that God is in control? If he/she was, then there wouldn’t be evil, and as you know there is plenty of evil.

We are told God created all things, that would mean God created evil too. So either, God created all things and the duality of man is a reflection of that, or there really are two powers at work in the universe, one good and one evil.

We are also told that we were created in the image of God. After many long years of thinking and meditating on that, I've come to understand that we are like God in that we are creators and for everything we create, something is destroyed. That is the nature of creation. And in that is reflected the duality of both God and Man, each capable of creating good and creating evil (God did create Satan, or so we are told) and within our creations (Man and God's) lie destruction, and that is the pain for we as man see only the good of our creation until the destruction it brings is upon us. I do not know how God may see his creation, God is not bound by our time zone.

Please know that I am not arguing with you, just that your first sentence struck a chord in me. Of God, the only thing I am certain of is that we suffer from compound ignorance, we don't know what we don't know, and unfortunately, everything we think we do know may be wrong. It is here that faith takes over and we trust that whatever greater powers may be moving in the scenes of our our lives are benevolent and merciful; otherwise I must believe it is perfectly OK and I am justified to go and murder that SOB who wronged me so many years ago. To forgive is such a blessing

[badguybuster]

Here let me help, start here:

GOD, be merciful to me a sinner.
Help me to know and believe in Christ Jesus, for I see, that if his righteousness had not been and I have not faith in that righteousness, I am utterly cast away.
Lord, I am told that thou art a merciful GOD and have ordained that thy son, Christ Jesus, is the Savior of the world and that thou art willing to bestow HIM on such a poor sinner as I am. And I am a sinner indeed.
Lord, take therefore this opportunity to magnify thy grace in the savlation of my soul.
In the name of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus.

[Wolfdog91]

Never will understand why me and my pagen/atheist freinds never have heated debates like this

[wv109323]

EDG,
If God allowed no evil and no thoughts against Him, what would be His action for you? A strike a lighting or a terminal illness?
By his freewill, He is allowing you to direct your life as you want. He will allow you to be against Him until your last breath. Or he is offering all mankind a way of salvation. Your choice.

[Ban]

In before deletion

Best think what ya want & let others do same. Not at all impressive

[Stewbaby]

[Bigslug]

And there you illustrate perfectly the problem, at least for me. I am genuinely and deeply interested in religion. Not just Christianity. I am also interested in the concept of faith, which is something of mystery to me. The trouble seems to come, almost predictably, with the awkward questions and what seems to me, and many others I am sure, some utter illogicality of some of the faithful. As such I feel my curiosity is disposed of with contempt by people who really do not know the answers to my questions. They are inconvenient.

I have said elsewhere that I can accept that my beliefs in scientific subjects might be wrong because if they are proved to be wrong, that is called learning. I believe the difficulty for someone who has 'faith' which by definition has to lack solid evidence, is that challenges to their faith threatens their whole world. When you just believe, if your belief is overcome you whole world is damaged, so it is easier to ignore the challenge, to dismiss it as mischief, which saves having to seriously consider what must be an unpleasant possibility.

That was very well said.

To go forward with the "horrors of war" theme prevalent in this thread, Eisenhower at least had the decency to explain to the 17 year old kids why they were in the landing craft. While I may not be crazy about the idea of taking an 8x57 between the eyes before I've even been on my first date, at least I've been shown the purpose behind it.

Now imagine that you found yourself BORN into that landing craft with all kinds of hell and confusion whizzing around you, and when you ask others "Why are we in this landing craft?" and are told "Ike moves in mysterious ways", just how inclined to follow Eisenhower would you be? Probably not very.

To go a little further with it, that landing craft is receiving radio signals from different "generals" (Catholics, Baptists, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, etc...) that can't even agree on which way to go to get to the beach, and Eisenhower (or maybe more appropriately, Napoleon) never shows up to smite a few of them to remind us of the proper direction.

This is the heart of what the Epicurean Paradox attempts to address - in short "Give me something I can have confidence in and follow". Faith effectively requires a belief that Ford Engineering is all hand-built GT-40's and Cobras; Epicurous calls attention to the Pinto, wrecked and burning on the shoulder.

[1hole]

You will have (to) accept that some of us don't agree with you on this and think that the belief you stated is just wishful thinking.
Tim

We Christians know whom we have believed and it doesn't matter what you believe. Thus, you "have to accept" that your continuing lame efforts to convert us to your nihilistic position falls on deaf ears.

Fact is, even from your bleak life view, if Christians are wrong we will lose nothing in life that matters and live happy lives until the end; there's no downside. On the other hand, if YOU are wrong you first live a spiritually hopeless life and, at the end, you'll have an eternal living death and lose everything that matters; that's a BIG downside.

Even determined men like you who refuse to see, hear and experience nothing eternally good in this life and choose to live in spiritual darkness, the rational choice of those options shouldn't be hard for people as wise as you think you are to make.