yeap, 44 300gr that pushes 800ft lbs of energy but I will not post the load data...even for the 73' Animal doesnt care if the bullet is 800 or 900ft lbs of energy, dead is dead
Even a load of 23.5gr of Reloder 7 with a 240gr @ 12,000cup is safe for the 73' and produces 1,250fps @ 833ft lbs.....and that is a published load.
Attachment 247992
Unique powder data label date 1935
Notice the load data for 44-40 revolver and a 250gr bullet! Also notice the chamber pressure produced. It is irrelevant of the load itself but what is important is the consistency of the chamber pressures once published. 15,000cup to 16,000cup revolver/rifle rather than the neutered SAAMI max of 13,000cup of today. Even though, most all commercial ammunition manufactures load a max advertised of 12,000cup but is certainly lower than that by at least 5%-10%. And folks can't understand why the 44-40 ammunition of today sucks!
Use this information at your own risk
Last edited by Savvy Jack; 09-08-2019 at 06:29 PM.
Interesting argument here - two blackpowder rounds
Same case capacity = 40 grains tops - same Length case - one calibre size different - diferences in boolit weight and velocity counteract each other and fall squarely into the "so what" category.
the colt round adapted to rifles suffers more downside - sloppy chambers in order to feed - poor extraction because of skinny rimsize - gunk in the action from powder blowby
than the winchester round adapted to pistols - rim size makes some conversions more difficult but the upside of that is more meat in the cylinder to acomodate the cartridge.
This is a political argument rather than one of effectiveness. (fun to watch tho)
Originally Posted by indian joe
Yeap!
Yup, and I chose the 44-40 simply because historically (that's important to me, not to everybody) it is the most likely choice. The 45 Colt was never chambered in rifles. I shoot my 44-40 with a full case of FFG and a 200 gr MAV big lube boolit.
Seems to me if you want full power go to the 44Mag or the 500 S&W. If you want to compete you will want the least recoil and are likely to go to the 38Special. Decide your purpose and let that determine your choice.
Historically the Army used the 45 S&W and the 45-70 rifle, to be simple. Civilians could choose between the 44 American, the 44 Russian, the 44-40, the 45 Colt, the 45 S&W, and later the 38 S&W. Of these I believe that only the 44-40 was chambered in both rifles and revolvers. The next cartridge that was chambered in both was the 38-40, a necked down 44-40, and then the 32-20.
The above is off the top of my head and will have mistakes, but my purpose is the same. Historically the Army never had pistols and rifles chambered the same. For the rest of us it was the 44-40, the 38-40, and the 32-20 if you wanted a rifle and pistol chambered the same. Somehow I doubt that was the critical issue back then, what was available in the store and the available money probably drove every choice. That's why the shotgun was the most common firearm in the western expansion. Simply practical.
Wayne the Shrink
There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!
Seems that the problem back then was the rims on the old .45 Colt cases. Does not seem to be an issue now.
Seems like the problem today is wading through the dimensional issues surrounding the construction of .44-40 ammo. Not likely a major hurdle for somebody who's been doing this a spell and has mics, calipers, and pin gauges galore, but based on what Saavy Jack is laying down, it would appear to be a lousy choice for Junior's First Reloading Project.
As far as performance of both cartridges loaded for an 1873? Flip a coin.
WWJMBD?
In the Land of Oz, we cast with wheel weight and 2% Tin, Man.
Nah, it aint all that bad. If all someone wants to do is hit still targets at 25 yards with a modern firearm...Starline brass, .429 200gr Magma and 6.5gr of Trailboss is a beginner's dream!
For a beginner in reloading, a single stage press with RCBS Cowboy Dies....will have to learn as ya go!
And it will teach a beginner to be careful with the brass, as well!
Wayne the Shrink
There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!
Savvy Jack
Sloppy chambers? Really I haven't seen that problem in my firearms! My '94 shoots great with .452" sized bullets ! Brass sizes nicely - heck I've been using the same brass for 10 years plus! Not one split case or worn out primer pocket yet! And I've used some heavy loads over the years! Can you say that with those 44-40's? Now the brass is Win and Rem with some Buffalo Bore.
Certainly, in the .45LC model 92's made by Miroku the chambers are somewhat oval shaped to facilitate reliable feeding.
I have seen this on 2 different rifles and read a few anecdotal reports of it here as well.
I believe the Miroku built 1873's in .45LC doesn't have it because the feed is more of a straight line.
My 92 and 1873 in .44-40 both have a round chamber.
I don't think Miroku made any 94's in pistol calibers. Any 94's in pistol cals were made in the USA.
why yes, yes I can. By "sloppy" I mean a little oversize. 44-40 cases freshly shot in the Marlin just barely won't chamber in my revolver cylinders IF using heavy loads. The 44-40 is a wildchild when it comes to how folks, manufactures, size the chambers and bore. THUS was the exact problem Ruger had with their revolvers. Normal SAAMI spec chambers with oversized barrels with 44 magnum bores.
I have been loading the 44-40 in ways that would make liberal millennial shooter's heads explode during some tests I made. My testing barrel was cut to original 44-40 specs. The problem is not the 44-40 itself but the manufactures not being consistent which adds fuel to the fire when talking bad about the 44-40 as you just did.
As I have posted several times in various forums, I have been loading my brass for over ten years myself with only a few splits. It would appear you obviously have not been following my posts. If you would like to catch up, you can start here: https://curtisshawk21.wixsite.com/44centerfire
I had sooty cases from my Marlin 45 Colt. Adjusting the sizer to just size down the top 3/8" of the case, enough to grip the bullet, fixed this issue for me. Could load many times before FL sizing needed.
Jack - a couple more votes for the 44/40
Back in the Day when I used to buy some ammo for the 44/40 I always liked the Dominion brand – way better than Winchester or Remington/Peters at the time,
Cleaning out some old stuff a few days back and found an original Dominion packet of 20 rounds, claimed velocity on the pack is 1310FPS maybe that explains it.
Some chrono tests over the last few years (RCBS chrono at 20 feet from muzzle)
Rifle is a 1970’s vintage Uberti 66 Brass Frame, 24inch barrel
This has been my normal paper killing load
35 grains 5FA Goex (1990 vintage powder) 225 grain CBE lead = 1168 FPS
35 grains Wano PPP (Scheutzen?) ……...225 grain CBE lead = 1050 FPS
Bit less lead, bit more powder, the 44/40 can sing with black if we want
39 grains Willow Blackpowder ……………200 grain LEE lead = 1339 FPS
40 grains Willow Blackpowder …………….200 grain RCBS lead =1355 FPS
I will leave the name of the person out for now but I will just leave this here for a while.
250gr @ 1275fps = 903ft lbs of energy @ the muzzle from a 44-40. I doubt seriously 21.4gr of Reloder 7 and a 250gr lead bullet would be dangerous in the 73' but we'll just let the lay right there for now.[200 meters] The group on the left was shot two days ago and is 21.4 gr. of RL-7 under the Accurate 43-245 GC bullet. (Weighs 250 gr. in 1:30) Brand new cases with no crimp. It shot 6 in 4 4/16” H x 4 1/16 wide or: Group measured 4.25”. 4 mph. wind was blowing at 3:00 and I turned it 1.5 MOA into the wind but that wasn’t enough. Didn’t chronograph that load but they have been running in the 1270s with temps in the low 90s.
Your low pressure read with Re7 loads has had me scratchin my head for a good while - I dont have any facility to pressure test - do have a good solid 92 that would likely take anything i wanted to shoot in it - eons ago I chose RE7 as the best bet for a 375 BigBore I had at the time, 38 grain under a 220 grain GC, that thing got yr attention.
In deference to my brass frame 66 I have mostly stayed away from smokeless 44/40 loads - just in case one got mixed. I like shooting the black stuff, two bucks a pound for the makings, and those velocities I posted above makes it no slouch - I am a happy camper !
Well I guess that's a Japanese Winchester problem! As my '94 is one of the last year production from American Winchester! Or a true Winchester! As are my two Marlins- real Marlins ! I do have two foreign made Levers a Puma 454 Casull and a very new to me Pedersoli 1886 . Both of there chambers are just fine! And considering the price one has to pay for a Miroko Winchester I wouldn't put up with any defect such as a oversized chamber! They'd be sending me a correct rifle or my money back period! None of my Levers have weird bore sizes either! All are correct for the calibers they are.
Last edited by Gunnut 45/454; 09-12-2019 at 03:37 AM.
I think you miss the point - its not a problem as in poor manufacturing - its deliberate design to overcome the unsuitability of the short, fat, straight wall case, and make these guns run poperly.
As for the 94 - designed around a case half as long again - the whole thing is a bodgy setup - if yours works thats great - twas never meant to be so and is a typical last ditch marketing excercise undertaken by a company in its financial deaththroes.
Like I said a few posts ago any diference between 45 colt and 44/40 (the original thread I think?) is a political argument rather than one of effectiveness.
Absolutely, there is no substitute for the black powder loads, love it myself. My endeavor with the smokeless, based on what many people say about it....myths of how poor it became after the advent of smokeless... came to prove that the 44-40 was just as powerful and accurate with certain smokeless powders as it is with black powder when loaded correctly.
I love popping my head into the gun range sometimes on a crowded Saturday, full of millennials. They see my old 1891 Marlin and snicker under their envious smile. Then when they hear that black powder load go off, all heads turn to look....then the "ding" at 265 yards...the jaws hit the ground. Dead is dead no matter if it's a 1/4" group or a 12" group when it finds it's mark!
I shoot the 44-40 and the 45 Colt in 20" barreled carbines. The 44-40 is in a Cimarron Chiappa M92 and the 45 Colt is in a Cimarron Uberti M73. I Have shot BP in the 45 Colt but it is not what I prefer to use. My preference has been to develop accurate smokeless powder loads using 200 to 240 gr bullets in the 44-40 and 200 to 235 gr bullets in the 45 Colt at 1050 - 1150 fps. I have done that with both and am quite pleased with the results.
I have settled on using the Lee TL429-240-SWC over 700X in the 44-40 at 1060 fps and the Lee 452-230-TC in the 45 Colt over 700X at 1075 fps. Both loads run less than 15,000 psi (measured). Both loads shoot as accurately as I can given the sights and my old eyes. I have stretched the 44-40 to 400 yards quite successfully as it has a rear sight capable. The 45 Colt is very accurate out to 200 yards which is the extent of rear sight adjustment. I have stretched it further using holdover though.
Don't often disagree with Savvy Jack but "Dead is dead no matter if it's a 1/4" group or a 12" group when it finds it's mark!" is correct only when the mark is hit and hitting the mark is certainly easier with the 1/4" group and much more consistent, especially at the longer ranges and that "when" can take a lot more shots with the 12" group........
Larry Gibson
“Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
― Nikola Tesla
In cowboy action, the .45 rifle is not really correct because it did not exist pre 1900. The 44-40 IS correct. Having said that, I'll admit to owning and shooting a .45, and so far I have not been told I can't.
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