Old Belgian SXS shotgun

[fatelk]

A good friend asked me to take a look at a shotgun of his. It's an old Belgian made SXS 12 gauge, marked "Lancaster Arms Co."

From doing a little research on the proof marks, I think it was made sometime just pre-WWI. It's marked "Twist Finish Belgium" on the barrel rib, which research tells me means that it is modern steel, and NOT Damascus steel. However, it has black-powder proof marks, not nitro proof marks.

He says they bought it from a very reputable gun shop. The proprietor, a very knowledgeable black-powder guy, assured him it was safe to shoot with modern ammo. I must admit, I have my doubts. He did say they've been shooting it.

He wanted me to see what I could do with the stock. The wrist is cracked and busted up. I think I can epoxy it, and pin it if necessary. I've done that sort of thing before. The other issue is that barrel lock-up is terrible, seriously loose. I took it apart to find the latch piece extremely worn. It's a sturdy flat bar. I really doubt I can find another, but I figure I could either weld it up and reshape it, or fabricate a replacement (I've done that kind of thing before also).

What do you guys think? Any advice? He's a good friend, the kind you help when they ask for a favor. My oldest friend actually, known each other our whole lives. I wish I had been there when he bought the thing; I'd have stopped him. So now I've got a project to consider, and I'd like to see what I can do.

[Petrol & Powder]

I can't help you with the ID of the gun but there countless European gun makers, many of them Belgium, around the late 1800's early 1900's. They range in quality from very good to barely safe and that was before they saw 100+ years of use. Short chambers, odd ball hand fitted parts, soft steel and other quirks were the rule more than the exception.
Each one is an issue all to itself.

I would look for English proof marks as well. A lot of those Belgium makers shipped guns or barrels to England where the final gun was assembled. Might give you a better idea on the history.

I think your idea of welding up the locking bar and re-shaping it is a good idea. Unless it is a very simple piece, it will easier to weld up a worn section rather than fabricate an entire new piece.

We've all encountered people that have old shotguns, particularly foreign made old shotguns, that think old equates to valuable. Sometimes old is valuable but often old is just old. I hope your friend doesn't have too much money tried up in that gun and you're a good man for trying to help him.

[NyFirefighter357]

It is black powder only, probably a 2 1/2-2 9/16 chamber. I am sure it isn't safe to shoot modern shotshells. Have a reputable gunsmith check it out. I was given a Lefever Nitro it was made in the mid 1920's just after Ithica bought them. it was made for nito powder & even then it was recommended to only use light shotshell loads. I have a couple of those old black powder Belgian shotguns, I'd never shoot them myself.

[KCSO]

First measure the chambers I shoot several of these but most are for 2 1/2" shells. Next check if it is on face with the forend off ie no spring pressure. Next lad your own shells if 2 1/2" and use low pressure loads not simply dove loads but low pressure. I just mostly use black. The old cast steel barrels are not that much stonger and heavy loads will have it loose in no time.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I'm not sure what you are asking. Is it if you should work on it at all?

Twist steel was a step up from Damascus steel, since it was all steel wire or strips twisted around a mandrel and hammered/forged into a tube, whereas Damascus used iron or alternated iron strip and steel that produced a pleasing pattern. However, the weakness of both and the discontinuance of both manufacturing methods resulted from time in voids, inclusions, and moisture collecting pockets of corrosion between the layers/twists that may not be externally visible, but nevertheless present inside creating structural weakness. (You knew this, I'm sure).

So I think you have a moral dilemma that you are considering, about whether or not you should restore a possibly dangerous gun to shooting condition. Yes, I know that many of these old guns are still in use, and that most of the owners are aware of the hazard and use reduced loads. Being somewhat an advocate of shooting the old low number 1903 Springfield rifles with reduced loads, I'm not going to criticize those that choose to shoot the antique Damascus and twist steel barrels. Consider, though, that there have always been shooters who regard their firearms as something to give utility and enjoyment, but never consider maintenance to be necessary, and their guns are likely those which over the many years became unsafe; although to some extent problems were built in to some of them by the manufacturing process. Also consider that not all guns were created equal, and that some are/were better than others and of higher quality and manufacturing standards. Yours sounds of dubious pedigree.

Had the gun you're considering working on received some TLC and maintenance during it's very lengthy lifetime, it wouldn't be in the condition in which you find it today. You have no way of knowing, that if restored, the gun is safe to shoot under any conditions, reduced loads or not, and there remains the possibility that some fool (of which our sport abounds) will try shooting it with some modern ammo. Were it I, I would repair the stock and let it go with the understanding that it's a wall hanger. Eventually everything's useful life ends, and is worn out. I would not turn it back into a shooter.

I'll relate a case in point from personal experience: Once, while still in the gunsmithing business, a neighbor brought in a Parker side hammer shotgun, very old, with Damascus barrels. The side locks were no longer operational. Now, there are Parkers and Parkers, some quite valuable and some not at all, and this was one of the latter. I repaired the locks so the gun would snap, refinished the stock, and put the barrels and other metal parts into the hot water boil out tank of my bluing system to clean them. Much to my surprise, the parts came out with a light blue without any salts having been involved at all. The finished gun looked great, but when the owner picked it up I warned him that it was a wall hanger and never to be fired. I saw him about a year later and asked how the old Parker was doing. He replied that he had hung it on the wall in his dining room where it was spotted by a dinner guest who just had to have it, and who offered him enough money for it that he couldn't refuse the sale. So, off it went into the hands of someone for whom it had not been intended, and who's level of knowledge and good sense was unknown. I felt a bit guilty about it, and thereafter wouldn't work on these old timers unless they were understood to be wall hangers and were mechanically disabled.

Your call on this, of course.

DG

[pietro]

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Lancaster Arms was an American retailer based in Lancaster Penn from about 1908 to 1922 or so, importing some of their guns from Belgium like many other retailers/hardware stores of the time.

Provided a real gunsmith (not some parts-changer) checks it out as okay to shoot (for instance, there may very well be unseen issues with the frame and/or barrel hinge), the only modern ammo they should be used with is specialty low-pressure ammo from the likes of RST.

Modern "target" and "low brass" shell do not qualify as real low pressure ammo meant for these old guns.

Anyone shooting modern ammo in these old guns (made prior to the 1926 shotshell ammo upgrades made by all ammo makers) should first ensure their health coverage is all paid up.

They can be decent shooters, on an even par with all the Folsoms (Crescents), etc .


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[fatelk]

What I was asking specifically was about the wisdom of shooting it with modern ammo. You all have completely confirmed my initial inclination- a big NO.

As to "Twist Finish", the info I was able to find indicated that it was just a finish applied to the steel to make it look like twist steel, because the look was popular at that time, but it was not actually twist or Damascus steel. No, I am not an expert of any degree on these things. No matter what kind of steel it is though, I'm convinced that it should not be shot with modern ammo at all.

I'll go ahead and fix the stock for him because that's what he asked me to do, and maybe weld and shape the the barrel latch. If someone is dumb enough to shoot it with the wrong ammo, they'll do it whether it locks up tight or loose.

It burns me a little that the shop sold it to them (the gun is actually for his young adult son) as a working, shootable gun. I won't name the shop, but they're known far and wide, and the proprietor is supposed to be something of an authority on black powder guns.

As to shooting it with low-pressure loads, I can just say right now that they "ain't gonna". They're good people, and very serious hunters, but they're not gun people and they don't reload. If he can't shoot something off the shelf at Walmart in it, he's not going to shoot it at all. I'll do what I can with it, and give it back to him with the recommendation that he let me remove the firing pins first, to turn it into strictly a wall hanger.

Thank you everyone for all the input!

[skeettx]

http://www.rstshells.com/store/m/2-12-Gauge.aspx

[fatelk]

That's pretty cool, thank you! I'll pass the info along to him. They're practical shooters and hunters, but it's good to know that ammo is available should they want to shoot it occasionally.

If it were mine I'd load up some black powder loads for it, but I'm not terribly comfortable loading ammo like that for anyone else, especially for a gun like this one.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

[QUOTE=fatelk;4702635]As to "Twist Finish", the info I was able to find indicated that it was just a finish applied to the steel to make it look like twist steel, because the look was popular at that time, but it was not actually twist or Damascus steel. QUOTE]

Somewhat correct. It was an evolutionary process. Damascus, as previously described. Twist steel, as described. What you are talking about came next. It was actually solid steel, but because buyers were attracted to the patterns in the metal made during the older manufacturing process, there was an era in which solid steel barrels were made to have the appearance of twisted steel by etching the patterns with acid. Most of these old guns that have seen heavy use will have shiny, smooth places on the barrel where the etching has worn off the surface. The next step was "fluid steel", solid steel with no pattern, called by various proprietary names.

[fatelk]

Interesting. Before I looked it up, I had never even heard of a twist finish. This one has no finish left at all, just a greyish-brown look of an ancient shotgun that hasn't been well taken care of. It's kind of a beater and I sure wish I had been there to talk him out of buying it. In addition to the sloppy lockup, the sideplates are slightly bowed so they won't stay in, the firing pins are peened so they won't come out. Somebody has previously tried to glue the stock where it's broken. A large chunk of wood comes completely off where the receiver/tang fits into the stock.

Whatever he paid was probably too much. They seemed to think it was something special, and were pretty proud of it. I'm not looking forward to telling them what I've learned. This old thing is definitely a wall hanger. It's a little scary to think that they were shooting it.

[Texas by God]

If they wanted to spend money, Briley full length sub gauge tubes can restore it to use safely after the other repairs are made. I wouldn't, they might. Just my dos centavos.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Buzz Krumhunger]

I wouldn’t even fix the stock on it, myself. I’d tell them it’s dangerous to fire and that I won’t put it into what may appear (to the uninformed) to be shootable condition, by fixing the stock.

If it comes apart from some nitwit firing it, and they remember that you “fixed” it, guess who the nitwit’s coming after for liability?

[Drm50]

I have cautioned people not to shoot "low brass" or any smokeless loads in Wire Twist, Ribbon Twist, or any other questionable old double guns. We are talking possibly getting injured. If you have a good solid gun and are determined to shoot it, buy BP loads or load your own with BP. I have seen a couple blow out with smokeless after owner and his family had been shooting smokeless for years. God protects fools and they got off with minor injuries. OPs gun sounds like a clunk from get go. Unless gun had sentimental value why would you put money in it? I'm no expert if it looks like twist, it is twist in my book I'm not taking the risk for myself or fixing it for another to get hurt with.

[fatelk]

Guys, the gun was in shootable condition from the start. They had been shooting it. Had they not talked to me about it, they would have continued to shoot it, until it crumbled into pieces or blew up. Don't try to guilt-trip me here; it's not like I'm going to somehow make it more dangerous. Should I steal it from them and destroy it? Should I hunt down all the millions like it around the country and destroy them too, so people don't get hurt? There's nothing inherently unsafe about this one that isn't common to all old guns like it, and I believe that once repaired it could be safely fired with black power loads like it was originally designed for.

It's pretty definitively determined that it's not a twist barrel gun, but it is a weak old gun that was originally designed for black powder. It won't cost him a dime for me to do some basic repairs, to basically hold it together as a wall hanger. I've already straightened the side plates. The stock is pieced back together with epoxy and an aluminum pin, and wrapped tight while the epoxy cures. I'll take the barrel latch to work with me tomorrow so I can weld and shape it; should be fairly easy. I'm not going to fix the firing pins.

This isn't any sort of professional restoration, but at least it will hold together decently for whatever he wants to do with it. I'll get it back together and give it to him, with the full explanation of what it is, and that under no circumstances should they ever again fire modern ammo in it. They're good people; they'll understand that.

I'm not even remotely concerned about any liability on my part. The guy who sold it to him should be more concerned about that. He was the one who told them it was safe to shoot.