Processing 223/308: Dedicated 650 or 1050?

[psychbiker]

I have two 650s currently. One I got used and should send to dillon for a service and the other is new. Both have case feeders.

I have a lot of 223 and 308 brass that need sized, trim, swaged etc. about 1.5 5gal buckets of each.

I have the Swage It tool and haven’t used it yet. Thought about making one of the 650s a Brass process machine with the Swage It, manual operated. Keep the other 650 for pistol reloading.

Or...I can look into the price of a used 1050. I reached out to the guy I bought the used 650 from and he’s gonna give me a price, likely $1200+ I’m guessing.

What’s are some thoughts on either way? I know the swage it voids warranty. I should try it and see what I think first really. That could sway my decision on a 1050.

I typically don’t buy retail when used tools that aren’t beat up work just fine. I know dillon has two new presses coming up (excluding the 750) but they’ll likely be more than I wanna spend.

I might be able to sell processed brass as well once I determine the proper setup.

[rancher1913]

the 1050 is not covered by their no bs warrenty because its considered a commericial machine. the 1050 can be automated but it seems dillon frowns on that. the 1050 will size, swage, and trim on the machine. don't know about the 650.

[M-Tecs]

I have three 650's, two super 1050 and an RL 1000. I flat out love the 1050's. If you want a 1050 get one, however, you have increased cost for caliber conversions and the base machine. The built in swager on the 1050 works great however you only have about 5,500 .223 based on 3,700 per 5 gall bucket. With the 308 it's going to be less. Seems like a lot but it's really just a drop in the bucket...……..when it come to brass processing.

Never used the Swage it on a 650 so no comment.

I have done apx 10 buckets of 223 and 5 or six buckets of 308 using the Dillon Super Swage 600. I set a table up in front of the TV and did them when I watched the tube mostly during baseball games. If you do go the Super Swage 600 they work great but with the 5.56 you can compress the pocket from the inside of the case support rod if you get to aggressive with removing the crimp.

Simply based on cost for the amount of brass you have the 1050 it's not effective unless it's going to be reoccurring.

If you are concerned about messing with the 650 warranty purchase a new or used Super Swager 600 process the brass and if not reoccurring sell the Swager when your done processing. Lightly used Super Swagers sell for 80% of new so it would only cost you about $20 to process all your brass.

[JeepHammer]

Dillon will tell you right up front, the 650 is NOT a bullet or brass swaging machine.
They *Might* replace the frame once under warranty, but they know what you are up too...

Before you buy the 'Swage It' tool, I can tell you I own one and it doesn't work all that well.

I own Super 1050s and I process brass (rather than load) on them.
It's a LOT of money to get a S1050 set up and running, and the primer pocket swage isn't 100%.
It takes quite a bit of tuning (and sometimes metal removal) to get a really good swage out of a S1050.

While the shell plates are *Supposed* to hold the brass SECURELY so the swage rod can do it's job from the bottom, the shell plate flexes.
To slow this down, Dillon uses a backer rod from the top inside the case...
Which works fairly well *IF* every brass has exactly the same head thickness (they don't, and let's not forget about burrs and domed floors from the flash hole punched cases).

That backer rod needs a REALLY strong spring instead of a flat head...
(A spring will take the slop out of things)

The 'Cost Effective' way to NOT damage a 650 (you already have) is a bench swager. (Dillon is about $100)
This won't be the 'Time Efficient' way, but it's 100% reliable since you handle/inspect every case while swaging, and you only swage ONCE, it's a one time thing.

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Keep in mind I process 1,500/hr to 3,000/hr, so I do things differently than 'Loaders'.
'Universal' decap or a decap/size die that's backed up some.
This allows the case to be LARGE enough to wedge in the trimming die securely.
No spinning, chatter marks or saw teeth on the case mouth since the case doesn't spin under the router.

Then I finish size the case shoulder and neck.
Without the shell plate wobbling back & forth under sizing loads the trim length comes out much more consistent, and the shoulder is 99% when it comes out of the trim die, really just needs neck sizing.

*IF* you go this direction the sized brass could easily be swaged on a bench machine after.

[jmorris]

The 650 is fine for processing .223/.308 if you are loading on a 1050. If you want to swage on a 650, you are wasting your time and money. Nothing you do on one will be as good as any method that uses a backup rod inside the case, while you are swaging the pocket.

[JimB..]

For a small quantity like that, for comparison I typically process a LFRB at a time, I’d use a SS600. Put on a movie and just keep moving. Doesn’t take as long as you’d think.

[JeepHammer]

I agree.
A couple of 5 gallon buckets isn't going to warrant the money for a 1050, and once you get a hand swager process going, it won't take long.

Also, 'Processed' is a relative term, from cleaning through a LOT more steps.
Most 'Processed' brass doesn't have the lower case bloating taken out, so what's the 'Qualification' for calling brass 'Processed'?

For New brass it's simple, it's SAAMI or it's not.
If a manufacturer were to make a thing other than SAAMI specification brass, the law suits would be endless in the event something happened (fault of the brass or not).

*IF* you don't push the lower case bloating back in where it belongs (something no top down common 'Reloading' die can accomplish) the brass will be shorter than SAAMI specification anyway, so no trimming needed.
To push lower case bloating back in, you will need something like a Case Pro 100 machine that rolls the lower case back into SAAMI specification, THEN bang the top of the tube back into (more or less) SAAMI specification so the stretched brass case excess will be pushed/dragged up so it can be trimmed off.

Remember, the most popular rifle in the US is an AR clone,
AR/clones have unsupported rear cases, the chamber DOES NOT support the brass all the way to the head, in fact about 1/4 of the case body is unsupported and 'Bloats' (swells) during the firing cycle.

No machine gun fired brass (milbrass) was in a fully supported, or SAAMI specification chamber...
Making SAAMI specification brass out of milbrass is a challenge, from having a specification size primer pocket, to crimps, to case bloating, to resizing milbrass since it's more resistant to resizing.

I also agree with Mr. Morris about the 650 trying to swage primer pockets.
The case/shell plate is unsupported and will simply deflect up away from the swage rod.

This is a good way to damage your press since the shell plate and center bolt is taking tremendous off center load.

[JimB..]

@Jeephammer, I have the tools to roll .223 brass (a casepro 100) but have never found it necessary. The brass bulges, but it doesn’t seem to become unchamberable within 3 or 4 firings.

Do you roll yours? How often?

[Love Life]

I processed 3,800 lbs of machine gun fired 308 brass on a super 1050. Sort by head stamp, and a lot of issues are mitigated. Use a small base die, and a lanolin/alcohol spray. The brass was then trimmed, chamfered, and deburred using a modified Wilson trimmer. Trimmers that locate off the shoulder are for the birds.

[JeepHammer]

@Jeephammer, I have the tools to roll .223 brass (a casepro 100) but have never found it necessary. The brass bulges, but it doesn’t seem to become unchamberable within 3 or 4 firings.

Do you roll yours? How often?

I process milbrass into SAAMI .223 specification brass and I process shooting club brass.
I process several calibers of pistol brass.
Since I have NO IDEA what specific firearm they brass will get run through, I simply restore the brass to SAAMI specification.

7.62 milbrass will never be civilian .308 brass simply because of case volume.

Every piece of brass I process for sale is case/neck qualified,
If the neck isn't 95% open or more, it's rejected simply because it's more efficient, and my brass doesn't neck split because it was bent to the point of kinking and stressing the brass to fracture along the kink line.

There are WAY too many looking for .300 AAC/Blackout for me to send a potentially defective product to a customer since that neck damage means nothing when it's cut for .300 AAC/BO.

Every piece goes through the roller.
Lower case walls are restored to SAAMI specification, and if your dies are made correctly, the rim is straightened along with extraction burrs being trimmed out of the extraction groove.
Semi-auto and full auto have violent extraction, so bent extraction rims are common, and tight dies in the roller restore the rim to a fully serviceable condition.

What came out of an AR/clone or M16/M4 will *Usually* go back into an AR/clone with top down sizing, but try and stick a bloated case into some of the current tight chambered 'Varmint' rifles and you will have fails.
I don't want my customers having to 'Cam Over' or buy expensive dies/shell holders to get my brass in a SAAMI minimum chamber the first time they try and load them.

Every piece of rifle brass gets annealed.
This isn't a huge issue when it's once fired milbrass, but club brass may have been resized and reloaded several times before I see it, so several loading/firing cycles means the brass may be way overdue for annealing.
With milbrass, I'm just set up to anneal in volume, so it gets the annealer.

When I process, it's simply clean, dry/polish some (dry media both dries damp brass & polishes a little), case qualify, case roll, anneal, then...
In the 1050 I decap, swage, use a sizing die for the trim die, and it's just a length check,
The brass is 99.5% sized out of the trim die,
Then I use a shoulder die to finish set the shoulder, then finish shape the neck in a neck sizing die.

Since it's a self indexing, motor driven machine and the tool head has the space, I don't resize during decapping, the case is still top swollen and long, that let's the trim die get a good grip on the case since it's being sized in the trim die.
No spinners, wobblers, no saw toothed or burred case mouths from spinning with the cutting tool when the die gets a good clamp on the case.

The shoulder die just touches the shoulder, sort of a final check/bump if necessary,
Then final neck diameter sizing, then out of the machine.

It's not the fastest way, but it gets me as close to SAAMI as anything I've tried, including my Camdex machine, which has the same failings as any other top down die does, that last little bit of the case body...
Camdex has thinner shell holders and a more positive alignment on the case to die, so the dies can be deeper with less taper/radius on the mouth of the dies, but they still can't reach all the way to the bottom of the case body.

A Camdex case processor is about $28,000 without caliber specific hardware (custom dies and shell tracks), but it will do 3,000/hr to 3,500/hr without fail, day in, day out for months on end without having to replace wear parts (other than initial sizing dies which give up around 300k in .223 and around 200k-250k in .308).
Caliber changes are $5,000 and take the better part of a day.

Rolling the cases and good lubrication makes all sizing dies last MUCH longer,
At least double, and often times triple the round count on the sizing dies when cases get rolled.
(Even more so for straight walled cases, I'm over a million on straight walled pistol dies regularly)

I *Try* to think long term, longevity of the equipment,
Common sizing dies are cheap, roller dies are much more expensive.
But consider the wear & tear on the processing machine which is NOT cheap!
The machines last MUCH longer with rolling before sizing, and my case roller has lasted 20+ years.
When I'm not replacing the Super 1050s or the stupid expensive Camdex sizing dies, instead replacing the roller dies once in a while, I'm NOT beating my processing machines to death.

The roller dies are much less than the processing machines, so it's a 'Win' in the replacement cost category.
A home reloader pulling the handle will never wear a 1050 out (unless they don't lubricate and let it rust)...
While I can easily wear out a 1050 in 6 months with proper cleaning & lubrication.
I'm getting about 3 years or more out of a 1050 now.

(Beware 'Used' 1050s! They are often beat to death by some 'Processor'... And there isn't a lifetime warranty!)

I rebuild my own, actual press pin bearings, Dillon small parts when something better isn't available.
There is enough left of a 1050 to rebuild cost effectively, and I wouldn't dump a worn out machine on anybody, like I won't dump partly 'Processed' brass on someone, I just don't have that mean streak in me.

What I would REALLY like to have is a rotary case roller with correct dies for .223
Being able to run several thousand an hour would allow me to keep several processors running on one case roller output.
The rotary does straight wall brass fine (I have one for pistol brass) but they don't have the equipment to make tapered dies for tapered cases (and I don't have equipment to make the dies efficiently).
A rotary can do 3 or 4 feed stations (or more, depending on diameter of the center die) so production shoots way up, and mine spits out 4 roll finished brass every 1/4 turn of the center die, but it also takes 4 case feeders...

What I find about a Case Pro... Never intended to do rifle brass.
It's a work around to do rifle brass, and I had to slow my drive down for consistent processing without jams.
5.56/.223 brass falls so far it likes to 'Bounce' and the straight line die catches it before it settles.
I can run pistol brass MUCH faster without jams than I can rifle brass, and that means a much more expensive variable speed motor.
That solved the problem but wasn't cheap...
Since a rotary feeds from the side, it wouldn't have the issue, but tapered dies with extraction groove dies aren't available.

[JeepHammer]

I processed 3,800 lbs of machine gun fired 308 brass on a super 1050. Sort by head stamp, and a lot of issues are mitigated. Use a small base die, and a lanolin/alcohol spray. The brass was then trimmed, chamfered, and deburred using a modified Wilson trimmer. Trimmers that locate off the shoulder are for the birds.

The first statement, "3,800 pounds of brass"...
Combine that with the third statement, "Sort By Head Stamp".

That means VISUAL, HAND SORTING!
Around 5,000 rounds you go blind.
Around 10,000 rounds you want to shoot yourself in the head with a nail gun to let the worms & acid eating your brain out...

Visual, hand sorting is the biggest time consumer, and the most taxing on the human body!
It's also the WORST way to sort large volumes of brass when time/money are a factor.
And that's with a back lighted inspection table, I don't even want to think about handling each round to look at the head stamp!
I would have been looking for a clock tower to drag a rifle into if I had to do 3,800 pounds of brass by hand!
You are MUCH stronger willed than I am!

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The 'Mixers' have gotten bigger, but basically the same process.
Throw everything in the cleaner, soap & water, maybe pins or chips.
Screen over the mouth to drain water/pins/chips and crud out,
Tumble the excess water out, throw dry (walnut) media right in with brass to dry and somewhat polish,
Screen out dry media and dump brass into bins/buckets.

This keeps me from having to dump, and lift brass several times into different machines.



Notice the weight of the bulk bins, somewhere between 2,500 & 3,500 pounds each, I usually pick up 8 to 12 bins per auction... What my trailer can handle depends on how much weight I buy.

The processing doesn't have to be huge machines and take up lots of space.
On the left is a case qualifier, rejects steel cases, mangled cases, necks open 95% or more,
Middle is the case roller, driven Case Pro 100,
Right is a driven Dillon Super 1050.
The bench is 3/4" plywood cut into 1/4 or 1/2 sheets and 2"x3" economy studs which gives a rock solid 2'x4' footprint (8 sq.ft. of floor space) and the bench will go through common doorways.



What I don't have uploaded photos of is the annealing machine or the bucket rotator I use to lube brass.
I use lanolin/alcohol in buckets, usually on sponges so the lube doesn't get INTO the case.

The annealer isn't flashy, just feeders dropping cases into the ferrite for annealing and like the above, into buckets.
The 'Flashy' part is the controls, motor & timer controllers, some lights & flashing stuff inside the case.
Still building & tuning when this photo was taken...



The qualifier will do about 3k/hr (when the case feeder keeps up, the Dillon pictured wouldn't).
The case roller is slowest, at about 1k an hour of 5.56, 750/hr of 7.62, and up to 1.5k/hr of pistol brass.
Annealing 6 cases at a time keeps up with the case processor, a motorized Dillon Super 1050, about 1.5k an hour.

I slow anneal, allowing the case neck/shoulder to saturate for full annealing, so it's not as fast as some induction annealers.
I make up for the extra time by doing up to 6 cases at a time, the reason for external controls in a separate box.

It's not 'Hoopty' with video game displays, but it does production work just fine and it produces good brass, (which is the objective!)...

You also have to keep in mind, I'm off grid.
It's also all portable, everything is on wheels.
When it's in the trailer it runs off batteries charged by the tow vehicle (or solar panels at home).

Blue box is batteries, black & yellow box is inverter to make 110VAC for equipment.

[psychbiker]

^^^ Well damn JeepHammer, I hesitate to ask about your casting setup

From the sound of it all, I'm kind of now inclined to buy processed 223 and 308 and sell what I have. I know they have those brass services where they process the brass for you, just send them the brass and pay a certain amount. I'll have to look at the numbers and see. If it's like a difference of $20 and saves me hours of fiddling in the garage to setup a press OR swage each brass one at a time, I'll go the processed route. I have much more fun reloading and casting.

I was hesitant on buying a used 1050 as I can see them coming from a company/service who had them running around the clock. The 650 I got used from a ammo/brass company was well used and I plan to send it in to dillon for a once over.

[JeepHammer]

You have to get with J. Morris about casting, I'm still using handles & welding gloves, and that's *IF* I ever get time...
I'll have to reclaim my lead pot, I was doing some annealing experiments (salt & dry media in a lead pot) and it's still set up for annealing.
An eBay thermometer and some steel shot blasting media, and a lead pot works REALLY well for small volume annealing, the results are fantastic (slow as dirt, but really good annealing).

I have never been a real handgun guy, and that's the focus for most casters.

Mr. Morris has a couple videos on his casters and they are COOL! (Or HOT, however you want to look at it )
On reloading mechanical stuff, I suggest looking up Mr. Morris's videos on YouTube or look at the homemade reloading equipment thread, the guy has it figured out!

I push the 'Easy' button way too often, I just haven't had the time to make the things Mr. Morris has, I either buy commercial or do without most times...
Brass is a side gig, and the money paying jobs always take priority... Someone has to pay Dillon, Lee, RCBS, etc.

I'm really good at getting in WAY over my head and having to learn everything the hard way
'Busted Knuckle' lessons are the ones your remember the longest...

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My junk is portable so I can process at clubs instead of brass shipping costs & headaches.
It's a niche market, but if wealthy people are willing to part with cash...
It's like top end street racers & hot rods, they have the money so I'll build the cars/parts.

I want born with a trust fund, I'm not super smart or 'Pretty', I don't understand the stock market...
I understand gears & wires, so that's what I do.

------------------

A send back to Dillon is money well spent.
They don't screw around when it gets back it will be 'Correct', it's up to you on final tuning to make it 'Right'.

I LOVE to complain! (cranky old guy)
So if there was something to complain about I would!
I can't even yell at them to "GET OFF MY LAWN".

[JimB..]

@Jeephammer thanks for the detailed responses! I didn’t know that you processed brass commercially, that’s a whole different level of commitment! My .223 starts as mil range brass but then only ever goes in or out of a single AR, so my needs are far less demanding than yours.

For pistol brass I will agree that the roll sizing does reduce the strain on press, but more importantly for me, it pretty much eliminates the need to gauge loaded ammo. It also identifies all the .380 brass that slips through when sorting 9mm.

[JeepHammer]

Once you get over crying about the price, a case roller brings several things to the table...
It's most definitely a volume thing, no sense in a home reloader buying a new one, but it's a REALLY handy for competition shooters or volume processors.

It's almost a requirement for speed gunners, it reduced failure to feed due to cartridges to virtually zero for me and everyone else I know that has one.
Dead reliable ammo is a wonderful thing when the clock is running.

I didn't get started intending to spend that much, but I wasn't that good and didn't get sponsors, so I reloaded to keep costs reasonable... And when I got to talking to others, several used case rollers so eventually I got one.

I do private sales, not commerical (like Star and others) but the requirements are still the same since these guys are group shooters and not 'One Hole' bench guys.
I don't know any one hole bench guys that don't process their own brass, so I'm not getting into that market anyway.
It's just places that want to get the brass beat back into shape and annealed once in a while...
I got started at the local gun club, and word spread the brass was lasting longer & always fed, so a side business kind of found me, I was doing it for expenses in the beginning for my club and when others started asking I raised the price and they were willing to pay...
I still don't make big money, but the customers are loyal and don't complain, so it's not too bad.

One thing about going into a club, a bunch want to help (to learn and talk reloading/firearms).
You always get the best side of folks when they are talking their hobbies, and I enjoy the company most times.
I put a grill & extra lawn chairs in the trailer when I go, so we grill, shoot the bull, get a lot of brass processed and generally have a good time. Other than wet shoes it's 'Fun Work'.

[David2011]

From the sound of it all, I'm kind of now inclined to buy processed 223 and 308 and sell what I have. .

After processing 5000 pieces of 5.56 with a 650 and a Dillon Super Swage that idea sounds pretty smart. I invested a lot of time and labor. The saving grace was that I bought 3K for about $80 before the prices went up and the other 2K cost me nothing. It seemed like I would never finish, though. Several years later I still ran across some small bags of 5.56 that managed to not get all of the steps completed. I put index cards in each bag of brass with the stage of processing noted on them.

[JeepHammer]

I use buckets/bins with cardboard saying the last process it went through thrown on top.
It's cheap & effective.

I still wouldn't have bought a 1050 for just 5,000 pieces... But I'm stubborn and often none too bright.
My angle would have been to find a cheap/easy way to trip the swage so I didn't have to pull the handle each time.

I fell into my first Dillon 1050, and while the guy that impulse bought it, then figured out he couldn't keep it running (so almost no use) sold it to me cheap, all I could see was a processor instead of a loader.
Something manual, strong, adaptable...
When the 'Zombie Apocalypse' never came, and he got different hobbies, he wanted the space back, so I obliged.

I traded for my first SBD, and my wife bought me a 650 for Christmas (love my wife!),
I paid cash for the 1050 (cheap) and was off to the races.
My case roller was used also since I wasn't sure it was necessary so I didn't want to buy new.
It's invaluable if you want to make SAAMI spec brass...

It's all in what you NEED to turn out brass/rounds...
If a top down die on a single press works for you, why buy more?
And it's a longevity thing, the longer it lives the more the initial cost is spread out.
It's pretty hard to kill a 'Rock Chucker'! It's going to live for decades no matter what!

It's not 'Better', it's 'Faster' when the price really goes up...
How much is your time worth since a 'Rock Chucker' will do the same job as a 1050, just in a shorter amount of time expended...
We are the 'Instant Gratification' generation and we 'Want' it RIGHT NOW!
(Volume producers excluded, time is literally money in a business situation)

I seriously enjoy seeing reloading set-up guys have, they are VERY creative!

[David2011]

The guy I'm teaching to load right now can't get over the fact that my Rock Chucker is over 40 years old. It's loaded everything from .22 Hornet to .48 Winchester Magnum and is still glass smooth.

[jmorris]

The guy I'm teaching to load right now can't get over the fact that my Rock Chucker is over 40 years old. It's loaded everything from .22 Hornet to .48 Winchester Magnum and is still glass smooth.

Yeah my buddies can’t figure out why I still like using my 70 year old 8N Ford tractors when there are so much more efficient machines out there today.

There is something to say about maintaining and learning curves for sure.

Keeping things simple can be a bonus, especially if you are doing low volume stuff.

The 1050 combining the swage with the loading process does make short work of loading crimped brass.

[JeepHammer]

I'm the same way.
Old tractors with modern charging system, starter & electronic ignition.
Everything is dead common, so parts will be available for another 50 years with no issues.
Those $12 carb rebuild kits sure beat injectors & pumps...

I tin can food (and other stuff) along with glass jars.
My 50 & 100 year old can seaming machines, mixed with a digital data logger (time & temp) makes for food exactly the way I want it, and 100% safe without being overcooked to death.
Add in modern retort bags and it's like store bought only it tases good, and it's clean.

My Rock Chucker is still a valuable tool, doesn't matter how much multi-function or automation I have, it's not going anywhere as long as I can still pull the handle!