Strongest 1st Generation Military Smokeless Powder Rifle Action

[Multigunner]

The Carcano got a bad rep because a large stash of Italian mil spec ammo sold in the fifties and sixties had been found stored in a cave in Egypt. That ammo was loaded with an early double base powder with 60% nitro and had degraded past safe use. Firing a few of those was equivalent to the C4 charge used by one test to blow up a Carcano. C4 has a 58 Percent nitro content same as Bullseye and Mk1 Cordite.
When older double base powders or cordite are subjected to temperatures of 125 degrees or more for any length of time the nitro sweats out and settles inside the case.

[Eddie1971]

Regarding the 88 Commission rifle, it was the barrels that burst on some and not the action. They were deemed strong enough for 8mm Mauser "S" round later.

[Bigslug]

I recently watch footage of a British No.4 (produced later than this poll, but still substantially a Lee-Enfield) that was deliberate ran to destruction by being rebarreled in .300 Win Mag and single-fired from a vise with a string. Proof marks indicated lengthy prior service life as both .303 and as a .308 match rifle.

The gun was behaving itself through a number of shots, so the destruction was accelerated by oiling the cartridges to increase bolt thrust. That did the trick after about five shots if I recall correctly, but the test was somewhat invalidated when it became evident that the smaller locking lug that sheared off did so at a pre-existing crystalline crack that coloration indicated had been there for decades - possibly since the action was made.

Good to know there's enough overkill in these designs that if you're running anything like original spec ammo, you're unlikely to mangle yourself

[Multigunner]

I recently watch footage of a British No.4 (produced later than this poll, but still substantially a Lee-Enfield) that was deliberate ran to destruction by being rebarreled in .300 Win Mag and single-fired from a vise with a string. Proof marks indicated lengthy prior service life as both .303 and as a .308 match rifle.

The gun was behaving itself through a number of shots, so the destruction was accelerated by oiling the cartridges to increase bolt thrust. That did the trick after about five shots if I recall correctly, but the test was somewhat invalidated when it became evident that the smaller locking lug that sheared off did so at a pre-existing crystalline crack that coloration indicated had been there for decades - possibly since the action was made.

Good to know there's enough overkill in these designs that if you're running anything like original spec ammo, you're unlikely to mangle yourself

I've seen a couple of images of Lee Enfield bolts with the inside lug broken out of the bolt body along with a thumbnail size chunk of the bolt body. Not sheared off but broken out.

I've read that in Australia they preferred to use the Mk4* action when rebarreling to .308 because occasionally the cut in the action body for the bolt latch of the Mk4 was cut too sharp and cracks could form there. The Mk4* doesn't have that cut at all.
A similar problem was found with a run of FN M98 style actions many years ago, where there was no radius at the corner of the left hand bolt lug.
The problem emerged again with some Sig pistols that had a cut without radius near the ejector port.
Too sharp an angle on parts subject to great stress can encourage cracking.

The Japanese Hook Safety rifle was mentioned. The Japanese did have concerns about the strength of this rifle, but I found no information on failures. They did develop stronger alloys before producing the Type 38, so that may have been the cause of any concerns about the Hook safety rifles. That and the state of the art of manufacture of Smokeless propellants of the time. Defective lots of Smokeless propellants destroyed many good rifles before and to some extent during WW1.

When the GEW88 rifles were proof tested, rather than using an increased powder charge of standard powder they used the same weight of a "Special Rifle Powder" that mimicked the degradation of the standard Blachen Pulver (nitrated cellulose , "leaves of paper") powder after years stored in the tropics.

All these old rifles were plenty strong enough for reasonably fresh quality ammunition but early Smokeless propellants were a terror after years of poor storage in hot climates.

[Tracy]

M94 Swede Mausers were proofed at 55,000 CUP.

[Multigunner]

M94 Swede Mausers were proofed at 55,000 CUP.

IIRC the GEW88 was proofed for 58,000 CUP.

[Earlwb]

I would agree in that the Mosin's were probably the strongest actions/rifles in that era. I think that the Mauser 93's and GEW88's are quite strong. But with the 93's, if a case ruptures you could get a face full of gasses and debris. The 93's didn't have the gas outlet in case of case ruptures. The GEW88's were Ok but there is some question about the metallurgy and metal alloys used since it was, pretty much, the very first rifle to use the new smokeless propellant. The designers didn't have much of any history or knowledge about smokeless propellants at the time. But since the Germans converted many of them over to the newer S cartridge it is probably a moot point.

I would also agree in that the Carcano's got a bad rap too. The Germans during WW2 converted some to fire the 8x57 rounds. If I remember right, the Egyptians or Turks later after the war converted quite a few to 8x57 too. I have a couple of the Egyptian or Turkish conversions. I think they converted a large number of them to the Greek 6.5mm round back then too. But I have not tried shooting the 8mm ones. That little cute carbine has to really kick like a mule when fired with the 8x57 ammo.

One caution is some of the old surplus 8mm ammo is really bad stuff and should not be fired in anything. Pull the bullets and throw the rest away. A couple of guys blew up Carcano's firing bad ammo where the cases failed. I think it was some old Yugo extra high pressure machine gun ammo. The brass cases were of poor quality and would come apart when fired.

But if you are loading your own cast bullet ammo, the Carcano 8mm rifles ought to be quite fun. If the rifle is in good shape and headspaces OK. Of course the primitive rear sight is a problem as they have it fixed for 200 meters maybe 300 meters for zero.

[avogunner]

I always wondered which of the first gen military smokeless powder rifles was the strongest. I'm using 1895 as the cut off year. Choices are:

Who was it...Ackley, Sharpe, Hatcher? One of those I believe performed an in depth study to answer this exact question. As I recall the answer was the Arisaka.

[TNsailorman]

avogunner, it was Parker O. Ackley. According to his "blowup tests", the old Remington Rolling block was stronger than the rifles so far mentioned. Surprisingly, the Jap 38 was stronger than either the German, Swede or Russian rifles. He loaded heavier and heavier until the rifle finally blew. That is the reason they were called blow up tests. james

[fcvan]

I was recently gifted an Argentine Mauser that sporterized by the original owner. Bbl is 22" and the stock was shortened as well. The bore is pristine and some bluing is gone. I have a 7.65 mold but no dies yet. All numbers match and I think it make a fine shooter for cast boolits. I have read where brass can be formed from 30-06 but I'm actually going to buy factory brass as I have seen it recently at a reasonable price.

[DCM]

Old thread on some of this: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...low-up-project