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Thread: Very light loads for ancient top break revolvers

  1. #41
    Boolit Master

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    I'm so cautious working up a load, paranoid maybe. I finally got around to putting several rounds across the chronograph. They were pretty consistent at around 320 fps. I reckon that's a little slow. I suppose I could get them going to at least 500 fps; that should still be safe, perhaps?

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9.3X62AL View Post
    The break-top action idea had its advantages.......over gate-loading SAA-series systems, mostly. .
    In their day, a big selling/advertising point was they were easier & faster to reload if you were on a horse,
    and why the empties were so forcefully ejected.
    (Also why early Colt .45 autos, before they settled on the final 1911 design had finger gripper notches at the front of the slide)

    After a fashion, there was some first generation speed loaders available for them made out of wood.
    Sort of a wooden disc with cartridge size holes drilled in it, then a large hole in the middle, and a wooden plug to keep the rounds in place.
    Put the loader on the empty cylinder, the rounds went in about 1/2 way,
    then you pulled out the plug and they dropped the rest of the way in.
    In school: We learn lessons, and are given tests.
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  3. #43
    Boolit Master
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    The pressures involved in shooting these old guns.
    The seating depth, weight of the powder charge, weight of the bullet, the hardness of the bullet material, the diameter of the bullet, the diameter of the cylinder chambers, the diameter of the barrel, the cylinder to barrel gap, the headspace gap between the recoil shield and the cylinder, and the timing how the cylinder lines up with the barrel when you pull the trigger to shoot.
    There are a few more variables also such as some pressure differences in lots of powder in loading these old guys from minimum loads to maximum loads and still more variables.
    Even the black powder loads are differing in strength, but are usually low enough for a gun in good shape.
    Taking all these variables into account at once and seeing them applied, a few here, a few there, and a few blowups, makes me believe more than ever in guardian angels for all of us.
    One reloader says he does this and only does that when he shoots.
    I say good luck to all of us, because everything I listed and a few I missed ALL apply every time you load up and pull the trigger.
    And most factory loads have slightly undersized bullets for their own protection.
    They are loaded to the right pressure for the la
    test firearm, but the bullets aren't. Even that statement has a bug in it, because any factory lot can have the right size, or larger bullets, making them too hot for your old iron.
    I've not said anything new here that everyone hasn't heard before, but it all applies, every time you shoot.
    Just sayin.
    I love reading what everyone has to say.
    Keep it alive, keep em comin.
    I respect all of you and I am always learning something new on here or another way to look at something with another point of view. After i post, I'm likely to go back and change something because i don't agree with myself, but somebody told me not to do that unless it's a bum charge weight or bullet weight or loa, so that's just a little more for the mix. Thanks.

  4. #44
    Boolit Master
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    If you are doubtful about shooting yours with lead bullets, there are always wax bullets and a primer.
    Also there are moulded hot glue bullets also primer powered.

  5. #45
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatelk View Post
    I'm so cautious working up a load, paranoid maybe. I finally got around to putting several rounds across the chronograph. They were pretty consistent at around 320 fps. I reckon that's a little slow. I suppose I could get them going to at least 500 fps; that should still be safe, perhaps?
    that speed worked in my Daisy

  6. #46
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    This is the test I referred to earlier of S&W 38 loads.

    38 S&W Pressure Tests

    Earlier in this thread I offered to test some of the loads mentioned for pressure to determine what level of safety there was for the different strength of revolvers made for the 38 S&W cartridge. Ed Harris graciously sent me some bullets and the data for several test loads. I also had on hand three 38 S&W factory loads plus my own 38 S&W load I use in my Harrington & Richardson revolver.

    The test handgun is a TC Contender with a 7.94” long 357 magnum barrel. The bore is .347 and the groove is .357. A strain gauge is attached over the center of the chamber (as per SAAMI specifications). With a 38 S&W cartridge chambered the gauge is over the case just below the base of a factory seated bullet. The strain gauge is attached to an Oehler M43 PBL that is interfaced with a laptop computer which has the software. As you will note on the Oehler data sheets there is considerable data input on the conditions, test firearm and load information prior to testing. Each strain gauge is calibrated by the manufacturer and that is also input. I also use factory ammunition as a “reference”. Before each test the M43 runs a check on the gauge to ensure all is correct. A test cannot be done if that test is not correct.

    Attachment 277731

    Attachment 277733

    The Contender has a 2.5X scope mounted and with quality 357 cast loads will put 10 shots into one raged hole less than 1” ctc at 25 yards. However, with the shorter 38 S&W cartridge the bullet exits the case it is not supported as it is in a revolver by the cylinder throats before entering the barrel. In the Contender chamber there would be considerable space around the bullet in the longer chamber for probable misalignment before the bullet enters the leade. Previous testing showed accuracy could be quite good and very poor. Since I’m probably the only one shooting any 38 S&W out of a Contender that isn’t a problem those of you with bullets that properly fit your revolvers cylinder throats have. The test groups were cut out and pasted to the Oehler data sheets.

    With low pressure loads the M43 PBL will not provide any measurements unless sufficient data is measured. This means any data from such shots will be “lost” including the velocity. To alleviate that problem, I also set up a M35P Oehler in tandem with the M43 PBL screens to at least capture the velocity. It also is interesting to compare the measured velocity data. If the M43 PBL doesn’t measure all the shots in a test string, the M35P still provides velocity information (generally a lower velocity shot wasn’t measured) for study. An example of that will be shown. The M35P print out is pasted on the Oehler M43 data sheet left of the “shot Data” and “Summary” data.

    The start screen for the M43 PBL was at 15’ and at 12.5’ for the M35P. Shooting was done from the bench with a Hoppe’s pistol rest.

    Attachment 277736

    Attachment 277737

    The chamber on the Contender is to minimum specifications for the 357 magnum and most 38 S&W cartridges will not chamber. However, the R-P factory 38 S&W cartridges would chamber very tightly. I had on hand 50 new Starline 38 S&W cases and W-W and R-P 38 S&W fired cases. All of the Starline and most of the fired R-P cases would chamber when FL sized in a steel RCBS 357 FL die. With bullets larger than .358 seated they would not chamber. Thus, all the test bullets other than the R-P factory that would chamber were sized .358 or .357. The R-P factory bullets measured .362 in front of the crimp and .354 on the seated bullet diameter. The W-W factory bullets were .350 - .352 on the seated portion. It is no wonder, as you will see, accuracy was less than stellar out of my H&R with its .362” cylinder throats, .351 bore and .360 groove diameter.

    In the following picture we see the bullets used: left to right; R-P factory, W-W factory, Western Lubaloy factory, Ed Harris provided the 36-125T, the 36-155D and the 36-151H and I provided the Lee 356-105-SWC. Also is a picture of the 3 bullets Ed provided loaded and another of the three factory loads.

    CC! 500 primers were used. A roll crimp was used in the crimp groove of each bullet. All powder charges were weighed individually on a Redding scale.

    Attachment 277738

    Attachment 277739

    Attachment 277740

    Attachment 277741

    Continued in next post
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 02-15-2021 at 06:29 PM.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  7. #47
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    The R-P factory load was tested first as the rounds would chamber so it would give a “reference”. Previous chronograph results out of the H&R revolver showed the R-P to give 60 – 100+ fps greater velocity than other factory loads. It also had more powder; 2.2 gr vs the 1.7 and 2 gr of the W-W and Western factory loads. The MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) of the R-P measured 16,300 psi. SAAMI MAP for the 38 S&W is 14,500 psi. The SAAMI MAP for the 38 SPL is 17,000 psi and all 38 SPL factory ammunition I have tested (numerous actually) in this barrel fall below that MAP so the psi measurement is correct.

    I also pulled bullets of the W-W and Western factory and loaded them, and their factory powder charges into sized W-W 38 S&W cases that would chamber. Neither of those two factory loads produced enough psi for a measurement. It takes 5 – 7,000 psi to expand the case to put pressure on the barrel and another few thousand psi for a “strain” on the barrel to be measured. I have measured as low as 9,000 psi with this test barrel with target 38 SPL loads. However, given the expansion ratio and loose-fitting bullet in the longer chamber the lowest psi measured during this test was 11,700 psi. Thus, the W-W and Western factory loads were all less than 11,700 psi as were any other load that did not measure.

    Looking at the squiggly, uneven time/pressure traces to the uninitiated they can be of concern. Those are quite normal for low psi loads where the powder is not burning that efficiently. A comparison of the average velocities between the M35P and the M43 demonstrate very good consistency. The accuracy of the R-P load was extremely good.

    Attachment 277742

    Ed Harris 1 test is the 36-125T bullet over 3 gr Bullseye (Alliant). That is a short stubby bullet that was pre-sized at .357 and lubed with LLA(?). I feared accuracy would not be that good given the loose fit in the 357 length chamber and was correct. Nine shots went into 2.137” but a flyer (note the oval bullet hole) enlarged the group to 3.2”. The MAP measured 15,300 psi.

    Attachment 277743

    Ed Harris 2 test is the 36-125T bullet over 7.0 gr 2400 (Alliant). It proved to be a very erratic load and the 3.86” group demonstrates that. Obviously, there is not enough bullet mass for 2400 to burn efficiently at this low of a load.

    Attachment 277744

    Ed Harris 3 test is the 36-155D over 2.5 gr Bullseye (Alliant). The 36-155D is a very efficient looking bullet. It was presized at .357 and lubed with LLA. This is a very good load demonstrating excellent accuracy potential and a MAP of 16,600 psi which is very close to the R-P factory load. Note the 1st shot was out of the previously 2400 fouled barrel and was out of the remaining 9 shot group. Those 9 shots went into 1.32” which is very good.

    Attachment 277745

    Ed Harris 4 test is the 36-155D over 6.2 gr 2400 (Alliant). Here we see while we may assume accuracy to be good based on 8 shots the 2 high flyers tell us something is amiss. The internal ballistics identify that something; again 2400 at this low of a load is not burning efficiently as indicated by the very large ES figures for velocity and pressure measurements along with the erratic time/pressure curves.

    Attachment 277746

    Ed Harris test 5 is the 36-151H over 2.8 gr Bullseye (Alliant). This is a very consistent load and we are seeing how the time/pressure traces are smoothing out. Also note the low psi ES’s across the board. Hey, accuracy was pretty good too! The one high shot was the high velocity. The bad news here for the 38 S&W is this load is pushing into 38 SPL+P psi range.

    Attachment 277747

    Ed Harris 6 test is the 36-151H over 6.5 gr 2400 (Alliant). We see the powder is beginning to burn efficiently with low psi ES’s and much smoother time/pressure traces. Accuracy was excellent with 9 shots in 1.4”:. The lone flyer, shot #9, was an abnormally low velocity. This load had the highest velocity and test MAP at 19,600 psi…. definitely into 38 SPL+P range.

    Attachment 277748

    This test is my own 38 S&W load developed for the break open H&R and Iver Johnson revolvers. I use W-W 38 SPL cases trimmed back to 38 S&W length. WSP primers were used. The bullet is the Lee 356-105-SWC which drop the bullets at .361 with COWWs + 2% tin alloy. I leave them unsized and Lube with LLA. They are loaded over 2.5 gr Bullseye. Out of my H&R hammerless revolver (3 3/16” barrel) they hit point of aim out to 25 yards with very good accuracy. However, for this test so they would chamber in the Contender the bullets were sized .358 and the cases were sized in the 357 steel FL die. As we see from the Oehler M43 data sheet only one of the ten shot test gave sufficient psi to measure. That was shot #4 and the psi was 14,300 psi. The remaining nine shots then had a psi less than the SAAMI MAP for the 38 S&W (14,000 psi). Note, as mentioned earlier, the M35P printout (pasted to left of Shot Data and Summary gives the velocities for each shot. Thus we still have a record of the entire test string. Accuracy was very good with a 1.235” group.

    Attachment 277749

    The last test was to chronograph and test for accuracy the 3 factory loads out of my H&R hammerless revolver. I was quite pleased with the ES and SD of all 3 loads from the revolver. As we see the R-P gave 60 – 100 fps greater velocity. That was as it should be given the higher psi of the R-P load. Accuracy was very poor, consistently poor for all 3 loads actually, which given the undersized factory bullets didn’t surprise me. On the target the R-P bullets are in the lower circle, the W-W in the middle circle and the Western Lubaloys in the top circle. As the velocity increased the point of impact lowered as usual for a revolver.

    Attachment 277750

    Attachment 277751

    Attachment 277752
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  8. #48
    Boolit Master
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    Larry G did a really great bunch of research and work pressure testing on these old pistols and loads for them.
    This should be saved and made a sticky if it isn't already.

  9. #49
    Boolit Master
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    Larry you are tough.
    Thank You for all that work.
    Also thanks to all the others who tried loading these old top breaks and came back to post their results.
    It's only here that you can find out about what works and what didn't.
    Last edited by Alferd Packer; 03-12-2021 at 06:55 AM.

  10. #50
    Boolit Master
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    I recently bought a iver johnson top break 38 S&W. I had a couple of boxes of WW 38S&W so I shot a few of those before I found out mine was made for BP. I since switched to BP using 10.5 grs which is slightly compressed using a lee 125rn 9mm boolit that casts right at .358. It has a crappy trigger and sights but will group ok at 10yds. However it hits about 6 to 8 inches high at that range and penetrates about half way through a 2x4. Looks like I'm going to have to add a bunch to the front sight. Fun to play with but I think I won't be using it as a ccw gun.

  11. #51
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    I have an old S&W 38 that my grandfather got someplace. May be from one of his friends widows, I don't know. It is in pretty good condition but the hand part is gone , so it will not advance the cylinder for the next shot. the bolt does engage to lock the cylinder in firing position. I think it is single action or else the double action function doesn't work. I would like to get it working just to say it does and maybe to shoot some gallery loads through it.


    On Target , the shop over by Kalamazoo just auctioned off a bunch of these in varying condition in 38 and 32 calibers. They all sold
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  12. #52
    Boolit Master

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    The problem I see with such guns - mainly the S&W clones - is that these were sold and used as little pocket guns that generally got carried much and shot seldom. . .YET A VAST PROPORTION OF THEM ARE BROKEN OR WORN OUT, PRESUMABLY WITH THE LOW-PRESSURE FACTORY AMMO OF THE DAY, OR FROM JUST DRY-FIRING.

    The heyday of those revolvers was right in the middle of that period that we could call "The Great Prototyping". In less than one human lifespan, we went from muzzleloading to breech; loose powder to cartridge; single shot to repeater; and black to smokeless. If you find your way into C&Rsenal's series on YouTube - even by WWI there was still a lot of perfecting to do on just about everything in common use.

    The Webleys and possibly the big S&W's were the more durable exceptions, but I consider most of the small top breaks to be like the "early dinosaurs": they didn't last long enough to be taken out by some un-resistable force like a giant meteor. Nope. They went extinct because the later, stronger, faster T-Rex and velociraptor came along and ate their wimpy backsides.

    As such, if you have one that by some miracle isn't broken, I'd regard that as only a transitory state to BEING broken if you put much time into running one. And it probably doesn't need saying - good luck finding remaining parts for a series of 140 year old guns that were probably all breaking the same things. Fix or reinforce one thing, and it'll likely just kill the next.

    We've all got our oddball tinkerer's kinks when it comes to firearms, and who among us doesn't love watching the gear of a vanished time function? That said, a sense of the reality that you are only "feeding the velociraptors" should be maintained by investing only in the cheap Lee dies, smaller quantities of brass, and unless you have another, better, compatible platform to shoot, inexpensive or low cavity-count molds.
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  13. #53
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    I recently bought my sixth top break S&W, my first 3 are in my Avatar. I load for them and shoot them. The big ones were martial arms and meant for thousands of rounds without malfunctioning. My newest one is a single action New Model 3 in 38-40 Target with adjustable sights. It functions perfectly even if the bore is kind of rough. I have already fired a hundred rounds developing my standard load. I have a double action New Model 3 in 44-40 that I think is superior to any contemporary revolver. I have shot it for hundreds of rounds as well. That double action .32 in my Avatar is a sweet gun except for the puny cartridge. Nice trigger, quick and easy to reload, more accurate than you would expect. The .38 has a slightly bulged barrel but otherwise functions fine, if it can take the overload from what was probably someone firing a round with a bullet stuck in the barrel and still be in such fine function. I think it can take a lot more rounds without breaking. I think the only reason you find mostly broken ones is the people with good ones keep them or sell the to collector for high dollars.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check