Western Field 170 Slugster ~ Lee 1 oz without Tail Feathers

[Ranch Dog]

I haven't been around much because of ranch and pilot chores, but I'm always to be thinking about slugs going downrange. Over the last couple of months, I ended up with a like-new Western Field 170 Slugster.



Also, I continue to ponder a return to the Lee 1 oz slug. In a nutshell, we depend on the wad cup, any pressure wad, serving as a sabot. My thinking is that shot pressure columns are not capable of surviving the slugs acceleration down the barrel. Almost all the experience with poor MOA performance with Lee's offering blames the slug, I've done that myself, but I been asking myself, what if it is the pressure column is creating the problem. With this in mind, I decided to get rid of the pressure column to see how a tail-less slug shot.

I have a dozen and a half different pressure column wads, but fancy only two because of the bore fit with the Lee slug. Both are BPI's; the Lightning 078 and the PT1205. Of those two, I favor the first for the exact fit of the slug.



With either, a ¼" of something, brings the slug up to where the cups petals are at the ogive. I've tried 20 Gauge cards, but a felt (white) or cork wad is a better fit. I cut the tail feathers off the column wad with a razor blade.



In place of the pressure column, I use two 50mm waxed cards with a Mini 12 Gauge Nitro card between the powder and the waxed cards. Let me detail the components with this image.



I'm putting the loads together with a Lee Load-All Junior.



Yesterday was my first experience with the 170. I shot three at 25-yards, adjusted the rear sight to move the POI left and down one index marking each (wasn't sure what reference the indexes represents), and then shot three more slugs at 50-yards, and they hit the same spot. Indexes must be ½ MOA.



Yeap, there are six holes in that target! I'm truly amazed! I doubt my rifled barrels could put six slugs into a similar size group with their best slugs; The group did not expand with the 50-yard shooting, that means the MOA shrunk!

I've been shooting this round in my Mossberg smoothbore pump, and it is just as accurate. What is interesting is that there is nothing found downrange other than the white felt 20G ¼" wads about 8 to 10 yards from the barrel. I haven't seen anything else. Given the consistency of the felt wads in the same spot, the shot cup is departing immediately to points unknown. I'm good with that given the target performance.

My rifled barrels, with this load, will not hit the 25-yard berm let alone the target! With the 170, I need to get the rear sight adjusted and keep after it. 99% of my hog hunting is after dark. I got to pondering the 170 with a scope and found an old topic on another forum that mentioned the Weaver 55 bases, the same bases that the 695 Slugster uses, fit the contour of the receiver of the 170 (Mossberg 395). I will need to drill and tap the receiver, as I'm going to scope this gun so I can use against my hogs.

The bases ended up being a bit of an expense as $200 went toward a 695. I owned a new one but never shot it. I couldn't get passed the trigger. The 395/170 have the same heavy, non-adjustable setup, but if it is shooting good, I suspect that I will shoot it enough to get past the pull.

My Western Field kind of looks like a Remington 788 on steriods!

[CastingFool]

Your loads certainly look promising. I just picked up a mossberg 500 with an 18" barrel, open cylinder. It woulb be interesting to see what it does with slugs and a red dot like a bushnell tsr25

[rancher1913]

thats an interesting take. several have tried to solve the same problem by filling the base of the slug with wax and had good results. you might search out y-mans threads for some other ideas.

[Hogtamer]

Get the sights squared away and don't change anything! That's serious hog medicine. FYI the PT 1205 is extinct but the 078 is still available. Can you measure the ID of your bore at the muzzle?
Nice work Rancher.

[Ranch Dog]

Your loads certainly look promising. I just picked up a mossberg 500 with an 18" barrel, open cylinder. It woulb be interesting to see what it does with slugs and a red dot like a bushnell tsr25

It shot very near the same with my New Haven 600 (M500) smoothbore barrel. I thought I had a picture of the target, but don't. Everything has shot good out of this barrel.

thats an interesting take. several have tried to solve the same problem by filling the base of the slug with wax and had good results. you might search out y-mans threads for some other ideas.

I've been there rancher along with hot glue and other things, all seem to take too much fooling around. This is very simple, about 20 seconds a round on the Junior. I'm dropping the powder charge with the Lee Deluxe Perfect Powder Measure.

Get the sights squared away and don't change anything! That's serious hog medicine. FYI the PT 1205 is extinct but the 078 is still available. Can you measure the ID of your bore at the muzzle?
Nice work Rancher.

Thanks, I'll get the diameter. Thanks for the heads up the PT1205, glad I like the 078. The 078 is very easy to cut the feathers off, one quick slice and there is a nice flat base.

[longbow]

Now there is a guy that is thinking!

I have commented many times about how I think wad columns are critical and that what I don't like about the Russian Paradox, Tusker and Gualandi clones... and actual Gualandi DGS slugs is the long attached cushion leg wad because of potential distortion, not only because the cushion leg (or tail feathers as Ranch Dog calls them) stays with the slug but because if the gas seal is tilted when it leaves the muzzle that is like an uneven base on a boolit.

So far I have not addressed those issues with Lee slugs though! Lots of lip flapping but not much action on my part!

What you have done makes perfect sense. You've got a solid, hard wad column that can't tip so potentially better launch platform for the slug. And obviously it works!

I have a whack of slugs waiting to be reloaded so I will steal your idea for some of my Lee 1 oz. and 7/8 oz. slugs to see how they work from my Mossberg Slugster smoothbore.

Thanks for posting this!

A question though... are you using a plastic gas seal at all? Doesn't look like it as you have powder, nitro card wad, 1/2" card wads then shotcup. I just want to be sure.

Thanks.

Longbow

[Ranch Dog]

Now there is a guy that is thinking!

More like a guy running out of ideas!

What got me thinking about this was looking at diagrams of slug loads in old reloading manuals, before the plastic stuff.

I have commented many times about how I think wad columns are critical and that what I don't like about the Russian Paradox, Tusker and Gualandi clones... and actual Gualandi DGS slugs is the long attached cushion leg wad because of potential distortion, not only because the cushion leg (or tail feathers as Ranch Dog calls them) stays with the slug but because if the gas seal is tilted when it leaves the muzzle that is like an uneven base on a boolit.

Yeap, that's the problem.

A question though... are you using a plastic gas seal at all? Doesn't look like it as you have powder, nitro card wad, 1/2" card wads then shotcup. I just want to be sure.

I've tried a couple of flat disk type gas seals, no cup on the powder side. The performance does not get close to the present setup. What's weird is the "crack" at the shot when there is plastic in the hull. I think we have gotten used to it or have forgotten how quiet non-plastic components are at the shot. At the shot is the sound of the ignition (blast) followed by the "woosh" of the components leaving, not the crack of the pressure strut collapsing.

In this picture below, the Nitro card is a .125" thick card by mistake, not the Mini. When I closed the fold, the case split, so I cut it open for the image. I saw that it had the wrong Nitro card in there. The Mini is .070" thick.



Here is a list of my components with the BPI catalog numbers:

• 078 Lightning - 020L078
• 20 Ga ¼" Felt Wad - 1221420
• (2) Waxed Hard Card Wad 12Ga 10mm - 10MMW12 (I see in the image I labeled it "50" and will correct that in the morning
• Mini Nitro Card 12Ga .07" - .09" - N712.

What I did after I looked at the old manuals was order every card, cork, felt, Nitro, and Waxed card wad that BPI had. It was surprisingly cheap, about a tenth of what I've spent on sacks of pressure wad columns. Then, I sat down and figured out the stack. It was very easy. I wish they had waxed paper cups that would hold the Lee slug. I think that would make the slug work in a rifled barrel. I've never paper patched a bullet, but I'm probably getting ready to paper patch a Lee slug.

[gpidaho]

Get the sights squared away and don't change anything! That's serious hog medicine. FYI the PT 1205 is extinct but the 078 is still available. Can you measure the ID of your bore at the muzzle?
Nice work Rancher.

I just bought some PT1205's from BPI on my last order. If they are extinct it must be very recently. Gp

[Cap'n Morgan]

Recently I tried my brenneke clone without any felt wadding - only an X12X seal - deep-seated in 2-1/2" hulls. The result was abysmal!
I'm gonna try the exact same load/gun, but this time stuffing as much wadding as possible into some 3" hulls, and then see what happens.

[Ranch Dog]

I'm gonna try the exact same load/gun, but this time stuffing as much wadding as possible into some 3" hulls, and then see what happens.

All my barrels are roll stamped 2¾" and 3". Without exception in my load development, the group MOA of a 3" shell is always smaller than that delivered with a 2¾".

If you think about it, with a 2¾" chamber, your component stack must jump ¼" of nothing as soon as it passes the mouth of the hull. Any of the components in the stack can be upset. You cannot call the space freebore, as the support the hull wall thickness is providing is not there. The components are jumping ¼" of unsupported chamber before they get to the leade. I would not accept it with a rifle so why take it when I'm trying to get a slug at least 100-yards downrange.

[Rcmaveric]

I am happy to see someone finnaly get some good results with the Lee slugs. Mine didnt go to well. I was actually looking at other slug molds. Now i need to try this out.



Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[Ranch Dog]

I'm going to attempt to get the sights setup but probably won't do any shooting beyond that until I have mounts and scope on the Slugster. I might switch gears now and try paper patching the slug for the rifled barrels. That will change the component stack, but as I noted, I bought all the different thickness of wads that BPI had. I've been fiddling with this for years and want to get past it.

The slug stuff started about 2008 for me. Our State wildlife biologist for the area and I hunted together. A nearby Corps of Engineer property went into the State's public draw system at the last minute, so he called me to tell me that we had applied. The caveat was that only slug guns were allowed. The upside was that he felt out of the five hunters allowed on the property, one would kill a B&C deer as the property had never been hunted. So, as any good-ole-boys would do, we geared up. We didn't get drawn, but the average of the five bucks taken was 168 B&C. The next year, and since, the property has been in the Texas Youth Hunting system inventory. It's funny how something starts. I'm willing to bet, that I'm the only fellow in my County with a rifled slug gun (let alone as many as I do have). My FFL thinks I'm nuts each time one arrives.

[longbow]

My Lee slug shooting has been fairly limited so far but accuracy has generally been reasonable, just not great. My round ball loads are generally better than the Lee slugs though the Lee slug groups are much better than any Lyman Foster slug groups I have ever shot! For the most part the Lee slugs have grouped under 8" at 50 yards for me and some of the better loads have been down around 4" to 5" groups. I really haven't done a lot of experimenting with components though.

I have paper patched Lyman Foster slugs and found much improved accuracy but I also got quite a few fliers which I attributed to the paper patch being damaged by rough hull/opening crimp/jumping through forcing cone... one or all of the above.

I have paper "shimmed" Lee slugs as well depending on fit of slug/wad/bore so get a good snug fit to bore. Due to the taper of the Lee slugs and relatively straight petals, I decided to make a sizer to remove the taper specifically so I could paper patch to custom fit with any wad. That didn't go as well as I hoped but again, I didn't do a lot of shooting or trying different components. In principle it makes sense to me because the Lee slugs have considerable taper and the wads I have and have been able to get have near straight petals so a cylindrical slug patched to good fit should be well guided in the bore. Also, the wad petals protect the paper patch.

I tried using slugs in shotcups over a card wad column much like yours but my results were poor. I had a bunch of shotcups left after having removed gas seals for use in full bore slug loads so decided I'd try a hard card wad column with wad slugs in left over shotcups. Mine was two 1/8" nitro card wads, one 1/2" waxed card wad... or maybe + a split piece to make up height, shotcup with slug all over Blue Dot and in a 2 3/4" hull, so similar to your wad column. However, mine did not provide enough gas seal and powder burn seemed a bit erratic. Recovered shotcups showed considerable gas leakage with stretched and burned petals.

Not sure what I did wrong there and since your load is working with the mini nitro card wad and two 10mm waxed card wads I better copy what you did and try again and of course in 3" hulls which I have not used.

Not sure they the 0.70" mini works better than two 0.125" nitro card wads but so it seems to.

I better get an order in to Canadian BPI (Bilozir Fine Guns) in Alberta.

Thanks for the details!

Longbow

[missionary5155]

Howdy Mike
Thank you for posting all this. I Had not thought about 3" as All our Mossy barrels are 3" along with the one Remington 870 rifled barrel we have. Round ball has always been our best load.
This is encouraging !!
Mike in Peru

[bikerbeans]

RD,

That is one fine looking bolt action scatter gun! The lee slug load is equally impressive. Please post pics of the hogs when you start dropping them.

BB

[Ranch Dog]

Can you measure the ID of your bore at the muzzle?

A picture is worth... Also, updated the picture in the opening post.

Not sure they the 0.70" mini works better than two 0.125" nitro card wads but so it seems to.

The Mini's are .070 (to .090"). The .125" is too thick, cannot close the start crimp.

Howdy Mike
Thank you for posting all this. I Had not thought about 3" as All our Mossy barrels are 3" along with the one Remington 870 rifled barrel we have. Round ball has always been our best load.
This is encouraging !!
Mike in Peru

You're welcome, Mike. It is just a start but I think full of promise. I have no doubt about the 3" hull being the way to go with like chamber

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Greetings, I find the Western Field 170 Slugster a nice looking gun, can you please measure the OD at the muzzle for my own information and if the barrel is around .900 at the muzzle then I might start looking for one for me ! !
**--** I have been looking for a La France rifled over and under in 20 ga for some time now ! !
Thank you.
Ajay K. Madan
Super Blazing Sabots

[RustyReel]

Just curious, and I admit I don't know what I'm doing. But. Do you think that load would work in a 2.75" hull with one less 10mm card??

[megasupermagnum]

All my barrels are roll stamped 2¾" and 3". Without exception in my load development, the group MOA of a 3" shell is always smaller than that delivered with a 2¾".

If you think about it, with a 2¾" chamber, your component stack must jump ¼" of nothing as soon as it passes the mouth of the hull. Any of the components in the stack can be upset. You cannot call the space freebore, as the support the hull wall thickness is providing is not there. The components are jumping ¼" of unsupported chamber before they get to the leade. I would not accept it with a rifle so why take it when I'm trying to get a slug at least 100-yards downrange.

I really wish someone would make a slug gun with an actual throat. Even rifled guns use a standard shotgun forcing cone. Most are about 1/2" to 3/4" long, and often 3" chambers are longer than 3" long. It all adds up to a heck of a jump with zero support at all. does the extra 1/4" actually help, especially when you consider a plastic shotgun shell is not really support itself? I can't answer that myself.

Nice job on that load. I hope the accuracy is repeatable for you. Everything I've seen shows the 1 ounce Lee slug to be marginally balanced, such that it often tumbles. Online video confirms this. Maybe you are on to something. Maybe the slug isn't the problem, and I have often had the same thought. I am going to try something similar with the 7/8 oz version and see what happens. My two biggest problems have been the wad pushing into the base, and the petals scrunching up on the sides. Maybe a solid wad stack will solve both.

[longbow]

I keep thinking a full bore (like 0.735") "crushable" slug to squeeze down to actual bore diameter is the way to go and on a hard card wad column. If leading is an issue then knurl and tumble lube, use a lubed wad underneath or powder coat and that should solve that one.

I have bore diameter Brenneke style slugs made up and some extra bore diameter slugs I can try with the hard card wad column. I'll also be trying the Lee slugs with Ranch Dog's idea too. A potential benefit of using plastic wads and wad slugs is if the slug tilts at all during that jump to/through the forcing cone the plastic wad should act as a bumper and protect the slug.

Greg Sappington had a chambering reamer made up to produce a rifle like chamber with no forcing cone for his custom bolt gun. He might loan it out.

I got to get my butt out to the range and get these slugs tested! I am starting to get excited again.

Longbow