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Thread: Western Field 170 Slugster ~ Lee 1 oz without Tail Feathers

  1. #21
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperBlazingSabots View Post
    Greetings, I find the Western Field 170 Slugster a nice looking gun, can you please measure the OD at the muzzle for my own information and if the barrel is around .900 at the muzzle then I might start looking for one for me ! !
    The muzzle OD measures .850".

    Quote Originally Posted by RustyReel View Post
    Just curious, and I admit I don't know what I'm doing. But. Do you think that load would work in a 2.75" hull with one less 10mm card??
    No. 10 mm is .393", the change would need to be equal .25". Later today, I will post an image from the BPI catalog, that page shows every card wad that is available. That catalog is in my reloading room where my hound dog sleeps in the air-conditioned room. If I go in there early, my coffee time is done.

    The funny thing about slug shooting is that you can change one thing and it upsets the apple cart considerably. In order to make a component stack easy to resolve, these waxed cards should be cut in .125", .250", .500", .750", and 1" lengths.

    Quote Originally Posted by megasupermagnum View Post
    I really wish someone would make a slug gun with an actual throat. Even rifled guns use a standard shotgun forcing cone.
    Amen! But no matter the design, why add a .250" jump to the problem. All this doesn't matter if the purpose of the slug is close in work or just having fun, but I need the chunk of metal delivered at least 100-yards downrange.

    Quote Originally Posted by megasupermagnum View Post
    Nice job on that load. I hope the accuracy is repeatable for you.
    Haah! That's where I'm at now; an owl feather is hanging on a chicken wing bone with my hound dog baying and I'm canting nonsensical hull component stack possibilities while I reload!

    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    I keep thinking a full bore (like 0.735") "crushable" slug to squeeze down to actual bore diameter is the way to go and on a hard card wad column. If leading is an issue then knurl and tumble lube, use a lubed wad underneath or powder coat and that should solve that one.
    My thoughts, as well. I know the Lee slug was tapered to fit a pressure wad cup and I thought about blowing it out to a full groove slug in a custom mold. My problem is that I'm done spending money on this. With that taper, there is no way to paper- patch it. I worked on this yesterday plus the work is too time-consuming for me.

    Where I'm going with my rifled guns, is back to my Accurate 73-470S bullet mold. I will powder coat it and shoot it with the 3" hulls. Here, the rifled Marlin, the Hammerheads are extremely accurate.
    Michael

  2. #22
    Hello Michael, thanks for the information as it help me. You are doing great, keep it up.

    Ajay K. Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots

  3. #23
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranch Dog
    Quote Originally Posted by RustyReel View Post
    Just curious, and I admit I don't know what I'm doing. But. Do you think that load would work in a 2.75" hull with one less 10mm card??
    No. 10 mm is .393", the change would need to be equal .25". Later today, I will post an image from the BPI catalog, that page shows every card wad that is available. That catalog is in my reloading room where my hound dog sleeps in the air-conditioned room. If I go in there early, my coffee time is done.
    Rusty and others,
    I posted a topic with an image of the BPI Card Cushion, & Filler Wads Chart.
    Michael

  4. #24
    Boolit Bub
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    I've long suspected that long chambers and forcing cones are upsetting slug accuracy. I've been blaming the poor accuracy I get with 2 3/4 shells in my 3 1/2" chamber on the jump. This could also explain why I get better results with .690 round balls...they self center better than foster style slugs like the lee. I wonder about loading a 7/8 oz lee slug in 3 1/2" shells at not-crazy velocity? Maybe then my rifled barrel with the 3 1/2" will shoot as well as my 3" smooth bore.

  5. #25
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    My primary purpose of getting into the slug hunting was on several draw hunts here in Texas that require them. I haven't gotten into round balls because the regs on the hunts require "slugs." All my hunting is in South Texas, but in talking to fellows that hunt CoE properties in the Northern part of the State, some require "smoothbore only with slugs." That's getting pretty durn specific.
    Michael

  6. #26
    Hello Michael, here is the chart for slug in wad fit for 12 ga , might help you choose the right combo ! !

    Best of luck.
    Regards,
    Ajay K. Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots

  7. #27
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    Thanks, Ajay.

    I received the Weaver bases. There is no way a scope is going to work, bolt handle interferes. Thought that might be a problem. Extra high rings will work, but my head is entirely off the stock. With centerfires, I'm a scout scope guy. I might have a base that I could fit the contour of the barrel. The barrel is thin so I don't know if that would work or not. I might have a short picatinny rail that I could mount on the receiver forward of the ejection port for a red dot. That would take a contour work to mate with the receiver. Not sure what to do to get the Slugster out at night.
    Michael

  8. #28
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    Depending on where it hits, maybe you can bend your bolt handle. A less desirable way is to use windage adjustable scope rings. I really don't like that, but it can work. I would use the tall rings, and find a way to raise the comb. My favorite way is one of those kydex adjustable comb kits. An equally effective method, although uglier, is foam cut to fit, and wrapped in electrical tape to the stock.

  9. #29
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    OK: I'm going to chime in here. I have been away for a while due to being banned by the police.
    I have been lurking for about a month but the main reason was getting this on the road finally.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJ4Q1ELw1Kg

    Anyway I have some observations to add to what Michael has stated above.

    First don't expect super accuracy from a 2 3/4 hull/slug fired in a 3" chamber. If your gun has a 3" chamber and you want to shoot slugs and get the best accuracy, load them in 3" hulls. The 1/4" gap matters big time. I figured this out a few months ago while shooting my M500 with a rifled barrel. The accuracy was abysmal 6"+ at 50 yards! However the exact same loads fired in my A5's 2 3/4" chamber were 1.5" at 50 yards. No harder to buy some RIO 3" primed hulls for .12 cents each and use them if you have a 3" chamber.

    The problem IMHO is the barrel not the wad column or various other minutia. All my practice loads are either Lee Slugs or Lyman 525 slugs, loaded in the Blue Claybuster Wads with either a .125 (Lee) or .070 (Lyman) card under the slug for no other reason than to give the slug a stable base to be accelerated by, and get the height close so a roll crimp works right.

    I also have settled on 1200-1300 fps for the velocity that produces the most consistent results at the target. These will knock down anything out to 100 yards as the TKO value is 66 for the Lyman Slug and TKO 75 for my Brass 550 gr Sabot Slugs. A .458 WM with a 500 gr bullet at 2150 fps is 70 TKO so the power is definitely adequate for most anything. The Lee slug at 1300 fps is 59 which is nothing to sneeze at.

    Barrels; I have 3 smoothbore shot shell barrels. The A5 Buck Special barrel, a M500 18" cylinder bore barrel and a M500 with a 20" Vang Comped barrel.

    The cylinder bore 18" barrel is the worst showing 6"+ groups at 50 yards using any ammo..

    The A5 Buck Special Barrel has a .015 choke in it, bore is .730 choking to .715 at the muzzle. It shoots factory and reloaded slugs very well into 1.5-2" at 50 yards.

    I have gotten no usable results from either of these slugs when fired thru a Rifled Barrel. They just don't work period! There are simply too many uncontrollable variables in play with slugs that are under bore dia. The wads which are acting as Sabots are not consistent enough to produce usable accuracy and the things just shoot better out of a smoothbore,, Kind of like they were designed to do?

    Hulls: I have found that previously roll crimped hulls reload better than previously fold crimped hulls. I also recently figured out that if you have one of those tapered hull conditioner tools that go in a cordless drill that using a heat gun on the hull as you are spinning it returns the mouth of the hull to nearly perfect. You let the hull spin with the tool and just push it onto the taper until it is all the way on. I just did 50 Federal Blue Low Recoil Slug Hulls this way last night and every one roll crimped closed perfectly using a BPI Roll Crimp Tool. It didn't matter how badly the hull mouths were distorted they all went back to cylindrical. Some of these had been reloaded 2-3 times but they all were returned to nearly perfect to be reloaded again.

    The other M500 has a 20" barrel that received the Vang Comp Treatment consisting of lengthening the forcing cone to 3", back boring the barrel to .745, and leaving a choke at the end back down to .735. This barrel shoots slugs very well also with groups in the 1.5-2 " range at 50 yards but what it does really well is shoot 00 Buckshot into a 7" pattern at 25 yards. previously it was 15" at 15 yards!

    The two choked barrels have one thing in common and that is the slug and wad running down the barrel during acceleration and then being aligned to the bore axis by the choke at the exit. I think Ithaca figured this out with their Deerslayer M37's.

    Anyway here's some pictures to show what I've been talking about.

    Pic #1 is Federal Low Recoil Slugs from the Browning Barrel at 50 yards.
    Pic #2 is Federal Low Recoil Slugs from the Vang Comped M500 Barrel,,, OFFHAND at 50 yards.
    Pic #3 is a 3 shot group with my Sabot Slugs from the Mossberg Rifled Barrel
    Pic #4 is a 5 shot group with my Sabot Slugs from the Browning Hastings Rifled Barrel. Note; the clover leaf in the center was the first 3 shots and the two others were added after I looked thru the binos and said Whoa!

    The obvious difference in accuracy I feel was due to the length of the chambers as both barrels were very close otherwise, and the loads were identical.

    Randy
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    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 08-10-2019 at 05:01 PM.
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
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  10. #30
    Boolit Master


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    It is always good to get a report from you, Randy!

    Other than trying to figure out the scope issue, nothing happened this week as temperatures breached 100 which will continue into late next week. Ranch stuff takes place in the morning and then it is too late for shooting. I guess I'm not as hard as I once was; I remember a couple of friends visiting from Oklahoma, and as we prepped for night hunting 30 minutes after sunset, the temperature was still above 100. It won't be this morning, but on Sunday morning, I hope to cast the slugs I need.

    I did spend some time in the reloading room cleaning the chamber and barrel of the Mossberg 695. I removed the 2-7 scope that was installed, everything off down to the receiver, and started with new rings and bases torque to the proper values. I began lapping the rings, but gave it up as the day had been long. The 695 will end up with the same scope my Marlin 512 has on it, the Weaver Classic V 1-3x20.

    As far as optics for the subject smoothbore gun goes, I'm going to see if the Weaver 10 side mount base used on the Marlin will fit. I would probably need to trim the left side of the stock to install the base, but without optics, the gun has little future once I'm done fiddling with the target shooting.
    Michael

  11. #31
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    Michael: The sights on all my guns are regular open sights. On the 20"Tac Gun I have a Williams Green Fiber Optic Front Sight and also on the A5 Buck Special Barrel. I will put one on the Hasting Barrel just as soon as I figure out how to move the existing silver beaded one out. It is stuck in there tight!

    I shoot open sights alot and rifle sights on a shotgun are all about getting your cheek weld to repeat. If it repeats when your eye in in line with the Front Sight and aligned with the Rear Sight,,, all you do is put the Front Sight on the target and let fly. AS long as the Front sight is somewhere close to being aligned with the rear sight you are close enough. Obviously for slugs you will actually want the sights aligned properly for the sake of accuracy, but if your cheek weld is right, that happens automatically when you mount the gun..

    Tonight on the "Outdoor Channel" at 6PM PDT There's a show called "Wild Boar Fever" about shooting Driven Wild Boar in Europe. They all use Bolt guns with Aimpoint Red Dots but I have seen several guys using O/U's with iron sights as well.

    For guns with fixed one piece Front Sights I paint the rear edge of the post white. This mimics XS Whiteline Front Sights, and the contrast works in just about every lighting condition.

    For shooting your pigs at night the Green FO front sight with a Weapons Mounted Light turned on just before you make the shot would work well. The Green FO sights shine like a Big Green Light Bulb when illuminated by an intense weapons light in pitch darkness. If you use the momentary contact switch on a Streamlight you turn it on, make the shot, and release it, and nobody knows the difference. It's only on for a few seconds and not enough time to locate you or figure out what happened. We were taught to do that in a Night Time Front Sight Pistol Class. If you leave the light on after the shot and then drop the gun back down to the Ready position, you trace a line right back to you so Return Fire can easily find you.

    In direct sunlight these FO sights are impossible to miss and with a shotgun shooting shot you simply cover or get near the target and let fly. They are very fast and I have been using my A5 in 3 gun shoots with them and it wins ! Last Sunday I did 9 targets with a reload in 7 seconds. I won that stage!

    In my classes and 3 gun shoots I use birdshot, buckshot and slugs interchangeably. The guns are sighted in with Slugs and everything else is close enough.

    Here's some pics of the sights. The white painted one is on my new Ruger PCC Carbine in .40 S&W!!! Teh white paint would probably improve the front sight on your WA gun alot. It takes @ 1 minute to do it. I usually find a spray can of white paint and shoot some on a piece of cardboard and use a tooth pick to place the paint on the back edge of the sight. If you don't get it right is simply wipe it off and have at it again.

    Randy
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    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 08-10-2019 at 04:45 PM.
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  12. #32
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    I'm very familiar with the XS setup and sights Randy, I have them on most of my leverguns and bolt action rifles. In the dark, especially in the brush, I would place their effective range at about 35-yards. I've communicated with the Pearson mount guy, he has a short picatinny, dovetailed "Red Dot" rail, but it will not fit the length dimensions of the 170.

    I didn't get a chance to look at the fit of the Weaver 10 base yesterday, I ended up getting the Mossberg 695 setup to join the mix.
    Michael

  13. #33
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    I figured you probably know Ashley Emerson of XS as I believe he's a Fellow Texan and uses a lot of Cast Boolits in his ammo. But my main point is that many people discount iron sights over optics simply due to Old Eyes, and a variety of other reasons because they haven't updated their technique. I didn't learn about Focusing on the Front Sight until I was 55 years old, and I know there are plenty of shooters who still don't understand the concept.

    You know about Front Sight and why it is called "Front Sight."

    Anyway if you want to mount a red dot to that gun look at the Glock Pistol Dovetail Mount for a Burris Fast Fire. It replaces the Rear Sight on the pistol and clamps into the dovetail with 2 screws pulling up on a male dovetail. It will probably be the wrong size for the dovetail slot on your gun but a male dovetail that fits could easily be made as it is simply a small piece of flat stock with tapers filed on each side and two holes drilled and tapped for the clamping screws. 30 minute job for a competent Gunsmith.

    The sight is held to the mount with two screws, and if it can take getting ran on top of a Auto Pistol slide it can take a shotgun. I'm putting mine on my A5 Rifled Barrel by making a small adapter that replaces the rear sight elevator.

    Randy
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  14. #34
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    Same wavelength Randy! Pearson has one but it is just too long. This might get to the point where I take it to a good gunsmith and have him make a mount for the Slugster.
    Michael

  15. #35
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    Hi Ranchdog, great result and a fun looking rig for sure.
    I went through a similar process of having a gun I liked and struggling with irons. This was a 9.3x62 with a barrel mounted express V and a bead front post. It was not drilled and tapped and I didn't want to try with the round action bridges. Randy and I seem to have had similar thoughts on this.

    I ended up using a mounting block from JP Enterprizes (fits the Leupold Delta Point, Delta Point Pro, Shield RMS, Shield SMS, and Redfield Accelerator maybe others) and can be machined to fit in a dovetail (Perhaps if you remove your irons you will have a handy dovetail, often can be drifted out)

    Block where the base is machined to fit your dovetail (https://jprifles.com/buy.php?item=JPA-GS)



    Then with the adapter plate, sits on top of the block (https://jprifles.com/buy.php?item=ARR-JP/DR)



    It will accomodate sights with the Docter pattern footplate (Docter / Noblex, Leica, Kahles, Burris Fastfire and possibly some others I'm missing)

    I swapped out my express V at the back of my 9.3x62 for a reflex red dot sight, started with a Burris Fastfire but swapped to a Leica Tempus for the smaller dot.

    Original folding rear express sight in dovetail



    Block milled to fit dovetail with adapter plate for Docter footprint optics:



    (Sorry is rather grainy image - make sure smith fits facing forward, adapter plate seen extending rearward)

    Image of block with a grub Allen head grub screw drilled and tapped through it. On a high recoiling rifle I was advised this might be a good idea to stop the block and sight walking / drifting sideways under recoil. (Should think this would apply to a slug gun too)



    Burris Fastfire mounted to block



    Overall view of rifle – put a leather cheek riser on the stock just to lift sight like a little agter some shooting.



    Really bad attempt at photo of sight picture (Actually looks much better!)



    Any questions please don't hesitate to get in touch and will help in any way I can.

    Here's a handy guide as to which red dot has which foot print: https://optics-info.com/footprints-on-red-dot-sights/

    Would seem to be worth investigating rather than a full scout scope mount for a $50 block/adapter and some machine time

    Scrummy

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranch Dog View Post
    I didn't get a chance to look at the fit of the Weaver 10 base yesterday, I ended up getting the Mossberg 695 setup to join the mix.
    In reference to my comments above; the Weaver 10 bases were not even a close fit.

    Thanks for the info Scrummy. I have a Bushnell First Strike on a HiPoint 4595; I'm going to see what the view is like after sunset to see how a red dot might fit in.
    Michael

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranch Dog View Post
    In reference to my comments above; the Weaver 10 bases were not even a close fit.

    Thanks for the info Scrummy. I have a Bushnell First Strike on a HiPoint 4595; I'm going to see what the view is like after sunset to see how a red dot might fit in.
    My pleasure Ranch Dog, I certainly find my rifle more useable with a red dot than irons.

    One point about reflex red dots I have found. If it has an auto brightness mode, it nearly always picks a level of dot which to me is too bright so I prefer more manual modes to an auto brightness.

    Scrummy

  18. #38
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    I was going to do a similar adapter mount for my Hastings Rifled Barrel for the A5. It would consist of a small block that replaces the elevator block in the rear sight, and then the Glock mount slides into a dovetail in the adapter block just like mounting it to the slide of my G35.

    I have used Red Dot Type Sights extensively and even at night it is easy to put the dot on the silhouette of a target and let fly. With a Weapons Mounted Light on the gun it is even easier as you can see that target and place the dot appropriately. It is even possible to use Fixed Iron Sights and my Green FO is highly visible with a bright light on the target. It is hard to miss the Green FO with any kind of light on it.

    I hunt Raccoons at night with my Daisy BB gun with a light mounted to it and it is easy to use the iron sights to pepper the varmints with BB's until they get the message not to come back. I had 2 big ones treed last summer and put 30+ rounds on each of them and they never came back.

    Randy
    "It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,,It's how well you do what you DON'T know how to do!"
    www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    I was going to do a similar adapter mount for my Hastings Rifled Barrel for the A5. It would consist of a small block that replaces the elevator block in the rear sight, and then the Glock mount slides into a dovetail in the adapter block just like mounting it to the slide of my G35.

    I have used Red Dot Type Sights extensively and even at night it is easy to put the dot on the silhouette of a target and let fly. With a Weapons Mounted Light on the gun it is even easier as you can see that target and place the dot appropriately. It is even possible to use Fixed Iron Sights and my Green FO is highly visible with a bright light on the target. It is hard to miss the Green FO with any kind of light on it.

    I hunt Raccoons at night with my Daisy BB gun with a light mounted to it and it is easy to use the iron sights to pepper the varmints with BB's until they get the message not to come back. I had 2 big ones treed last summer and put 30+ rounds on each of them and they never came back.

    Randy
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check