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Thread: The Kit Gun, revisited

  1. #61
    Boolit Grand Master



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    Froggie;
    I knew that you were just hiding your love for the .32 H&R. Everyone knows that the .32 H&R is THE edible small game gun amongst the .32's It is also LOADS of fun on the range.

    FWIW
    Dale53

  2. #62
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    ARRRGGHH! Now I’ll never hear the end of it! Oh well, at least now that I’ve outed myself on the H&R (still can’t bring myself to call it “Magnum”) I can actually shoot come of them next time I’m in OH... in my Ruger Blackhawk eight shooter - the “stud hoss.” It will be like shooting CB Caps!

    Froggie
    "It aint easy being green!"

  3. #63
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    Great thread!! I have some fascination with kit guns. Tried a 22 lr PPK in the 80s, but no joy so traded it for a M63. I did not get the accuracy I wanted so it went in trade for a Challenger. Still love the Challenger, but kinda big for a kit gun. Now there is a Rossi clone of the 63, I like it and it (or I ) is more accurate than the 63 was. A bearcat and Thundered 22 that go walking. A M31-1 4 inch 32SWL that is lighter than the bearcat, hardly know I am carrying it. A 3 inch Rossi I frame clone in 32SWL that I recently found. A single six in 32hr that is kinda big for my kit gunning uses, but fun to shoot. Got a really good deal on a 3 inch sp101 1st run 327. I like the sights on it, once I made a new front that would zero at 25 yards. Now, the current favorite is a M36-6 3 inch adjustable sight 38. Skeeter kinda designed that in an article in the mid 70s, took a while to show up. A Colt Diamond back 38 in 4 inch is nice too. Then there is a 696 that has spent a lot of time in a pocket and a Titanium 41mag. The 41 weighs the same as my 2 inch M36, till I load it. Still very light and reasonably small for 41 mag power level!!
    So for criteria, based on what I seem to gravitate to, would be less than 30 oz empty, 3 to 4 inch barrel revolvers. Caliber depends on mood and likely needs. 22 for the Tennessee woods for plinking and small game. 38 to 44 for snake shot loads, or bigger game. The 41 goes deer hunting on occasion. I like fixed sights if I can get them “on” at a reasonable range but adjustable are ok too. The sp101 is kinda heavy, the Colt and 696 are a bit valuable to ride in a tackle box. Probably the same could be said for the M36-6 but It rides in a simply rugged pancake, and I like shooting it! I still can’t pick just 1....
    “You don’t practice until you get it right. You practice until you can’t get it wrong.” Jason Elam, All-Pro kicker, Denver Broncos

  4. #64
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petrol & Powder View Post
    RMJ52 - If I had ever come across a model 64 with a pencil barrel - I likely would have stopped my search right there. At one point I actually considered having a model 64 barrel turned down. The other option that I seriously considered was finding a model 67 and modifying the rear sight to something snag-proof and only adjustable with a file.

    Something along the lines of your model 60-10 was also very much in the running.
    If you are ever looking for another one, check GunBroker...there are a dozen plus on there right now. One Seller must have bought out a security company or LE agency as he has a bunch...

    https://www.gunbroker.com/item/819563925

    https://www.gunbroker.com/item/821003499

    https://www.gunbroker.com/item/825189049

  5. #65
    Boolit Master
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    I am surprized with all the "love" for the .38 Special in this role and everyone wanting a lightweight gun, that no one has mentioned the S&W Model 12... I have two of the -2s and they are so easy to carry. It will eat up all the wadcutters one wants and the occasional +P isn't going to hurt anything...

    Both of mine have a round butt and the 4" pencil pencil barrel....

    Bob

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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJM52 View Post
    If you are ever looking for another one, check GunBroker...there are a dozen plus on there right now. One Seller must have bought out a security company or LE agency as he has a bunch...

    https://www.gunbroker.com/item/819563925

    https://www.gunbroker.com/item/821003499

    https://www.gunbroker.com/item/825189049
    Well darn, that sure would have been easier !

  7. #67
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    I'm familiar with the model 12 but I don't have a barrel stretcher

  8. #68
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    I have a couple S&W Model 12s. They shoot well and are light as a feather.

    My 4-incher came back from Germany.

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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    The basis of my understanding of a Kit Gun comes from my experience in the rain forest of Ecuador with the indigenous people. I was flown in by a light airplane to a grass strip cut from the rain forest. I was there for a week to ten days until the plane came back. I was the only white person within two weeks walk. I hunted with the men in the village using a Colt Huntsman 22 pistol that I took into Ecuador totally against the law. If I knew the way out, which I didn't it would weeks to get out. I had no ammo in the truck for there were no trucks. There were no stores when I could buy ammo or reloading componets. All I had was what I could carry in a small duffel.

    .............
    Char-Gar

    How many 22LR rounds did you take in country?

    How many rounds did you carry when on those hunts?

    Discounting any practice or plinking how many rounds did you actually use?

    Just interested in some real world comparison with a handgun down there. When in Central America I didn't have a handgun but had an M16A1 for which I made my "Panama Load" and used it on several hunting forays around Gatun River and Lake.
    Larry Gibson

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  10. #70
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    Char-Gar

    How many 22LR rounds did you take in country?

    How many rounds did you carry when on those hunts?

    Discounting any practice or plinking how many rounds did you actually use?

    Just interested in some real world comparison with a handgun down there. When in Central America I didn't have a handgun but had an M16A1 for which I made my "Panama Load" and used it on several hunting forays around Gatun River and Lake.
    I took with me from the states 4 bricks (2,000) rounds. I took one brick into the rain forest and took 100 rounds with me when in the forest. I did wrap the ammo in food wrap and seal with tape. It is very humid there. I may have fired 20 all total while foraging for food on my three trips to the rain forest. I shot maybe 25 more killing rats in my backyard in Quito. It was no place for plinking as replacement ammo was not available and I didn't know how long it would be before I coud get more. I found the little 22 auto to be just as intimidating on the locals as a 45 auto. A gun is a gun to them. The rest of the ammo went, with the pistol when I sold it in country, made a bundle on it I did. In general, I am an old dude who was trained on the well placed shot. I never believed in area fire and seeing how fast I could empty the gun.
    Last edited by Char-Gar; 08-07-2019 at 03:26 PM.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  11. #71
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    Excellent recap, thanks for the response.

    BTW; 25 - 50 rounds was all I ever need/used in 2 - 3 weeks with numerous day "hunts" involved.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
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  12. #72
    Boolit Master Thumbcocker's Avatar
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    In keeping with the spirit of this thread I did some weighing of various firearms and ammunition to try to put numbers to the concept.

    Ruger LC9s 9mm 18 ounces
    Ruger Sp 101 .327 28 ounces
    Rock Island 1911 compact in .45 acp 35 ounces
    Ruger GP 100 3" .44 Special 36 ounces
    Smith and Wesson 30-1 3" .32 long 18 0unces
    Smith and Wesson 66-3 2 1/2" 33 ounces
    Walther PP .22 LR 22 ounces
    Smith and Wesson 63-3 4" 27 ounces

    Ammo:

    Remington high speed .22 LR hp 50.3 grains 140 rounds per pound
    .32 long .95 grain DEWC 149.1 grains 47 rounds per pound
    .32 mag. 105 RNFP 165.4 grains 42 rounds per pound
    9mm loaded with Lee 125 rnfp (closer to 130 out of acww) 200.5 grains 35 rounds per pound
    .45 acp 210 SWC 293.3 grains 24 rounds per pound
    .38 special 151 BNWC 222.2 grains 32 rounds per pound
    .357 160 RNFP 251.3 grains 28 rounds per pound
    .44 special 250 SWC (closer to 255 from acww Keith Boolit) 361.6 grains or 19 rounds per pound.

    The number of rounds was rounded up to the next highest number. The rounds were what I had laying around and are my more or less standard loads for the various cartridges.
    Last edited by Thumbcocker; 08-10-2019 at 03:36 PM.
    Paper targets aren't your friends. They won't lie for you and they don't care if your feelings get hurt.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumbcocker View Post
    In keeping with the spirit of this thread I did some weighing of various firearms and ammunition to try to put numbers to the concept.

    Ruger LC9s 9mm 18 ounces
    Ruger Sp 101 .327 28 ounces
    Rock Island 1911 compact in .45 acp 35 ounces
    Ruger GP 100 3" .44 Special 36 ounces
    Smith and Wesson 31-1 3" .32 long 18 0unces
    Smith and Wesson 66-3 2 1/2" 33 ounces
    Walther PP .22 LR 22 ounces
    Smith and Wesson 63-3 4" 27 ounces

    Ammo:

    Remington high speed .22 LR hp 50.3 grains 140 rounds per pound
    .32 long .95 grain DEWC 149.1 grains 47 rounds per pound
    .32 mag. 105 RNFP 165.4 grains 42 rounds per pound
    9mm loaded with Lee 125 rnfp (closer to 130 out of acww) 200.5 grains 35 rounds per pound
    .45 acp 210 SWC 293.3 grains 24 rounds per pound
    .38 special 151 BNWC 222.2 grains 32 rounds per pound
    .357 160 RNFP 251.3 grains 28 rounds per pound
    .44 special 250 SWC (closer to 255 from acww Keith Boolit) 361.6 grains or 19 rounds per pound.

    The number of rounds was rounded up to the next highest number. The rounds were what I had laying around and are my more or less standard loads for the various cartridges.
    Thanks good info. Things to be considered .

  14. #74
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    Yes, good info to consider.

    As a "kit gun" to me is a small companion gun I keep coming back to my S&W M30 with 3" barrel in 32 S&WL. With it, 4 speed loaders and a 20 round belt ammo carrier I'm comfortable with 50 rounds for it. The 32 S&WL with my 90 gr SWC loads (very safe for the M30) has proven to be a lot more effect than the 22LR cartridge out of a similar handgun. The 32, to me anyway, is plenty good enough for small game for the pot of eliminating vermin.

    It also is a gun and 2 legged vermin don't ask what cartridge it is when it's presented. No, it's not the best for self protection against them or bears, cougars, etc. but I've usually a rifle or shotgun with me when carrying the 32 S&WL M30. If just carrying a handgun where it may be needed for SD then I do carry something bigger, most often a .44 or .45.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
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  15. #75
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Light weight is not the Holy Grail of Kit Guns. Any handgun must have enough heft to hold steady on target. There are always compromises.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    Light weight is not the Holy Grail of Kit Guns. Any handgun must have enough heft to hold steady on target. There are always compromises.
    Yup what he said.
    Small guns are hard to shoot well small light are harder . If I cant get against something to steady my aim range to hit small targets is very short. If my primary purpose for being in the woods is to hunt I have a bigger gun . The kit gun is secondary for me.

  17. #77
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    My experience over the years has substantiated to me that 20-oz. is a practical maximum for pocket carry. A 2-pound combined weight of revolver, basic, simple holster and ammunition is a useful planning standard for a kit gun. Longer sight radius helps, as do a Tyler T-grip on service stocks or better hand-filling grips.

    Your mileage may vary, but to me near-perfection a 4" Airweight S&W Model 12 K-frame .38 Special, or pencil-barrel 3" or 4" Colt D-frame Detective Special, Police Positive or Cobra in .38 Special with wadcutters. Also good are a 3" S&W Model 30, 31, 36, 33, 60, etc. any of which fill the bill rather nicely.

    I prefer center-fires in .32 S&W Long, .38 S&W or .38 Special to any rimfires. More reliable ignition and greater smash. But, I don't foresee any threat of extended firefights with Secret Squirrels, or rabid Bunny Wabbits, so six rounds in the gun and 12-18 rounds of spare ammo carried in speed strips or zippered CountyComm keycase in pockets are adequate for most weekend outings.

    As Mentor Jerry would say, Just my opinion.
    Last edited by Outpost75; 08-10-2019 at 05:31 PM.
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  18. #78
    Boolit Master Thumbcocker's Avatar
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    I have been very pleased with these for carrying extra rounds. The .22 ones hold 30 rounds. Unfortunately they aren't made in .32. They are made in .38-.357 though.

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  19. #79
    Boolit Master Rodfac's Avatar
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    Great thread...and with so many ideas and suggestions. Here's a cpl of mine. My wife and I share a M60 .357 with a 3" bbl. and also a M36 with the same bbl. length. Either makes up into a nice companion when loafing about the farm, or on the trail. Loaded with Lyman's 35891 WC, they make a great plinking and target punching gun while still laying a claim to SD use. With the right loads, they're comfortable to shoot for an hour's session on the range and neither will sag your belt line when worn on the hip.

    But just recently, I dug into the back corner of the safe and retrieved my uncle's plant guard side arm: a Colt Police Positive in .38 Colt New Police along with another one in .32 Colt New Police...light at 20 oz or so, either has the accuracy that's necessary for fun use while plinking or close in shots on bunnies or grouse. The pic below features the .38 and with ammunition that's at least 60+ years old. Both need some filing on the front sight to get their groups centered but either will do the job.

    Lastly, and like Froggie and Dale, I'm a .32L and/or .32 H&R fan. My two Rugers in .32 H&R are both tack drivers with the right ammunition (did I mention RCBS's 98 gr LSWC mold) and a modest charge of Unique? The smaller of the two is a Bird's Head with the shorter bbl., and carries a bit better than the 5-1/2" model...but both are equally accurate, easily holding on a 50 cent piece at 15+ yds if I'm having a "good eyes" day. Great thread guys and a good read...thanks, Rod


  20. #80
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    If you can live with the homely appearance, a Ruger LCRX 38 with the adjustable sight and 3”(?) barrel makes a lightweight, easy to tote Kit Gun.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check