"SNS" Cast Bullets

[03lover]

Has anyone had any experience with "SNS" cast bullets.

I ask because my experience has been all BAD. I am loading the SNS 250gr. RNFP bullet listed as .452" diameter. The bullet actually measures closer to .453" diameter.

I am trying to work up loads for a Henry Big Boy with these bullets and having no luck at all. I have tried loads using Unique, Winchester 231, Accurate no. 5 and Accurate no. 7. The best groups, if I can call what the targets look like groups, run at about 5" and go up to 8" to 9" at fifty yards. I am shooting of a bench with bags and the rifle is scoped.

Yesterday I decided I had to try a couple of the 45 Colt factory loads to see if the rifle is junk or the bullets are junk. I fired Winchester 250gr. lead RNFP factory ammo and the groups ran 1" and 1 1/2" center to center at fifty yards. I didn't consider that too bad, as I was rushing it a bit. Then I fired Federal 225gr. jacketed soft point (RNFP) factory ammo. The first five shot group measured 3/4" center to center. the second group had 4 rounds of the 5 in one small ragged hole barely larger than the bullet and I put to fifth round 1/2" to left of the other four. I considered those groups great and confirmed the Henry can shoot extremely well with the right ammo.

What in the world is wrong with the "SNS" bullets or loads?

[RichardB]

could be alloy/hardness, bullet profile or any number of things. But if they shoot that poorly I'd suggest weighing about 10 and see what the variation is. That will tell you something. If it varies a lot you know the issue, If not its somewhere else.

Have you tried other vendors of cast bullets?
RichardB

[03lover]

I had weighed (20) and found no more than one grain difference from lightest to most heavy. I also measured the diameter of that (20) bullets and they all were within a couple of ten thousands of each other, measuring close to .453" which is a little on the large side but I don't think this is the reason for the terrible groups.

I have some Missouri bullets, 250gr. RNFP, much like the "SNS" bullets that I can try. If they shoot just a badly as the (SNS) bullets, maybe the rifle simply doesn't like 250gr. lead bullets. Although the Winchester 250 gr. factory RNFP ammo was lead and it shot well. GO FIGURE.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Before I started casting, I bought and loaded and shot a lot of SNS bullets.
They use a certified 92/6/2 alloy with a Brinell hardness of 16-17 for everything they cast.
That is a pretty hard alloy for 45 Colt. I don't know what your loads are, but bullets that hard can benefit from HOT loads.

If working up a hot load of Unique doesn't help, I'd look to H110 and find some rifle load data or "Ruger only" data.

[Outpost75]

IMHO the 92-6-2 alloy is unnecessarily hard!

You would be better off with 50-50 lead-COWW with perhaps a bit of tin added to improve fill-out, no more than 1-2%.

There is no reason to use alloy harder than 10 BHN in the .45 Colt. Keith felt that 1:20 tin-lead was good for general use and that 1:15 was adequate for full .44 Magnum loads. You can save lots of frustration by going back to basics.

[Dusty Bannister]

Perhaps you could give some of the specific loads that you found to fail. Specifically, what were you doing with Unique powder? Many have found that 8-8.5 grains with a bullet of that weight is good in nearly all guns. Also, you are not addressing the amount of crimp. Maybe you are applying too much crimp and the bullets are now undersized. If you have been working with jacketed bullets (.451" and change to cast .453") adjusting the crimp and flare of the case mouth is probably in order. Are you getting your data from a cast bullet manual, or substituting a cast bullet for a jacketed bullet data?

[kir_kenix]

I've used a good number of sns boolits. A range I shot at gave them out as prizes...sponsored by scheels I think. They are hard, regardless of caliber, but they all shot ok for me except the 158 swc. Still sitting on a couple hundred of them.

The blue lube they use isn't very good. Seemed to run out and lead the last few inches of my .44 mag carbines. I may have tumbled them in jpw to solve this but I would have to check my load data.

I probably have shot 3,500-4,000 of the 240 gr .430's in various N frames.

[03lover]

Dusty,

With Unique I tried 6.0,6.5,7.0,7.5 and 8.0 grains over Remington large pistol primer. Cartridge OAL 1.590". First attempt I used a modest roll crimp and second attempt I used a very light profile crimp, none of which will undersize the bullets. Most under sizing of bullets is caused by a taper crimp.

I am using load data found in several loading manuals.

One thing I always do when working up new loads is to use the same brand of brass, prepare the brass for loading. Then before the brass is primed or powder charged, I seat a couple of bullets, then pull the bullets to see if there is any under sizing or lead shaving. I need to be sure the bullets are the same coming out as they were going in.

I am probably one of the most picky reloaders known to man. That is why these SNS bullets are driving me nuts.

I have 500 of the same weight and style bullets made by Missouri bullet mfg. I will be using the same loads with the Missouri bullets to see how they perform. I know the Missouri bullets are a bit softer than the SNS bullets. I will at least be able to decide if my rifle simply doesn't like the 250 gr. RNFP bullet or not.

As for the SNS bullet lube, If bullet lube is failing when fired, the leading will occur more toward the front half or muzzle. With the Unique and 231 test loads, I had some leading at the start of the rifling ahead of the chamber after firing fifty rounds or more and it wasn't very bad. When I tested the Accurate powder, AA 5 and AA 7, The energy level was significantly higher than the Unique and 231 loads, yet the was no, not a speck of lead in the bore. The faster powders were probably causing some flame cutting of the bullets due the more rapid build up of pressure and the slower powders were moving the bullets forward without the high pressure gases going around the bullet as it entered the bore.

[Dusty Bannister]

You are using a hard bullet and a hard wax lube. That 8 grains of Unique works well with COWW type alloys. Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th edition shows data for Lyman 454190 (250 grain of #2 alloy) 6.0 grains start and 9.0 grains max for the revolver. It shows the same for rifle data. Before you get too much further, you might consider a light over coat of LLA or one of the enhanced versions of same. I agree that you do not have much more cartridge OAL to play with and not lock up the action.

[mdi]

Have you slugged the barrel? Perhaps the bbl/groove diameter is a bit large. Yep, 16+ BHN is a bit hard, but you should still be able to get decent groups. Without actually loading and shooting them myself, I can't offer much...

[BigAlofPa.]

I use SNS too. I like them. The non coated i shoot in my 45 colt revolver. They shoot pretty good. The blue lube i agree on is not the best. It fell out on some of the bullets. I did crank up the loads to 9 grains of CFE pistol. It helped with accuracy. My gun is a SW 25-5 so i can't push it into Ruger or contender loads.

[03lover]

mdi,

I did slug the bore. It measured .452" groove diameter. Just what Henry said it should be.

As I said earlier, I have the Missouri bullet - 250gr. RNFP .452" diameter that looks almost identical to the SNS bullet. the major difference is the Missouri bullets are a Brinell hardness of 12 which is quite a bit softer than the SNS bullets at 16-17.

I thank those of you that have pointed out the SNS bullets are probably too hard for 45 Colt. That may be why my fifty yard groups are pretty bad with the SNS bullets.

I have the Missouri bullets loaded with the same powders that I loaded the SNS bullets with. I used 231 and Accurate no. 5. I hope to find a difference in the group sizes, that I can attribute to the difference in bullet hardness.

Rain in the area today. Maybe tomorrow.

[mdi]

If my barrel was .452" I would go with a bullet about .454" to start...

[skrapyard628]

I have had good experience with their coated bullets. I have used their non-coated lead bullets in the past (.401 for 40S&W) and went away from them because of the amount of smoke I was getting. But I never had any accuracy or leading issues.

And I was just accuracy testing a few loads in .357mag using their coated bullets over the past weekend. All of the loads I had preformed well out of a 627 with 5" barrel. Granted I was only shooting at 15yards but they all held together in about a 2" group as long as I could keep the gun steady enough. I would believe the groups could tighten up if I was a better shot...heh.

This was using their coated 125gr RN and 158gr SWC. Both bullets measured .358 dia. Both loads were using PMC brass, CCI500 SPP, Power Pistol powder and were roll crimped in the crimp groove.

Just a note that I have not slugged the barrel on the gun I tested these in. I have always gotten good accuracy with a .358 bullet from it so I never went so far as to slug it.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I would check the throat size, if the throat is larger than .453,a larger bullet (or softer) would probably work better. I would also try a .454 diameter and/or a softer bullet.

[Mytmousemalibu]

A good buddy of mine and I tried some SNS's lead last year. Both of us are USPSA shooters, both for 9mm minor power factor ammo. My gun, a Canik SFX and his a Springfield RO 1911. Both of us have extensive time running coated bullets. Both of us encountered terrible leading, about 1" into the bore all the way to the muzzle. Both of us running 125gr.TC in both .355 and .358 diameters. Neither of us have had issues with other bullets, coated or otherwise. Its not our guns in short. I wanted to like them, I know many people do but both of us had poor performance. I'm sticking with Blue Bullets for all my minor ammo. They work great, clean shooting, accurate, fair prices.

[BigAlofPa.]

I had leading with Tight group with the sns coated. Really bad with 9mm and 380. It does say on there sight to stay away from the top 15 powders on the burn rate chart except for a few exceptions. I started using sport pistol with them. It's been working out for me.

[osteodoc08]

I’ve used SNS coated bullets in my 10mm and they have shot well for me. I picked some up when Dillon had a sale and I was ordering a few things anyhow.

[03lover]

I have never had a rifle that I had such a problem with as mine.

I have used both SNS 250 gr. RNFP bullets and Missouri 250 gr. RNFP bullets for comparison. I tried Win 231 and Unique powders as the somewhat faster type and Accurate no. 5 and Accurate no. 7 for the slower end powders.

Long story short, none of those powders or the powder charges from starting to maximum loads with the two bullets I have tried will provide any kind of accuracy. Groups, if they can be called that, at fifty yards, shooting off a bench with bag rest, and the rifle is scoped run a typical 6"to 9" shot gun patterns.

I finally thought the problem may be the low powder volume with the space between the top of the powder charge and the base of the bullet could be the problem. It is called "Powder Position Sensitivity. So I repeated most of the test loads but tried to shake the powder to the rear, slowly lower the rifle onto the bags and fire. IT DIDN'T HELP AT ALL.

Then I decided to try a larger volume powder. I tried Trail Boss. The groups improved, but nothing to write home about.

I have to retest a couple of the factory loads that in the first time I fired them, did fairly well. If they still provide decent accuracy, I am still at a lose to explain why my rifle hates the 250 gr. RNFP bullets I tried using the powders I mentioned before.

If the factory ammo still shoots well, I won't be able to ask Henry to check the gun out for accuracy.

[BigAlofPa.]

Found a way to use up what i have loaded with tight group and not have to scrub lead. I have way to many loaded to pull. I tried this today. I put an FMJ in the mag 1st then finish loading it up with the sns coated cast. Ran 50 rounds though my 380 1911 of the cast today. It was one of my worst ones for leading up. Came home patched it with eds red and ran the bronze brush through 30 strokes. Dry patched and light oil patched. Scoped the bore nice and clean.