45/120

[Spooksar]

I just bought a Uberta Sharps in 45/120 anyone have a load using smokeless powder and a 400 grain cast bullet

[uscra112]

Y'got brass for it, too?

Might want to inquire on some other forums, too. I've got a copy of Quickload, but won't post suggestions because I know so little about how accurate it is for such large cartridges, and I have no idea how strong that rifle is. Suffice to say you're probably gonna end up using something around 4895 for a muzzle velocity in the 1400 range.

[oldred]

Hodgdon actually has data for the 45/120 on their site,

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

I think they have about a dozen loads or so for the 400 (405) gr bullet, top loads are a bit stiff at velocities up to around 2000 FPS at about 28,000 CUP which is the max pressure approved for the Uberti. These are the max loads but they have a bunch of more sane loads too at lower pressures and velocities.

[Spooksar]

Thanks, and I did find Norma brass for it

[bigted]

They ARE a wonderful moose and bear rifle.

[oldred]

Ted, Have you had any of the load development problems with the 45/120 that are sometimes mentioned? What I am asking about is that we often hear it's quite difficult to develop a good shooting load with that big case but I was wondering (if it's even true) if that's both with smokeless or real BP? I have a 45-90 with a Winchester chamber that I have been considering for a long time reaming out to 45-100 0r 45-110 but if I ever get around to doing this I have often wondered about just going all the way and doing the big 120? It seems most everyone I talk with about it tell me it's hard to develop a load for but if that's not to difficult a problem I might consider it anyway, I already have two other 45-90s and just thought that big ole' 120 would be kinda fun and different!

[17nut]

You need to cough up some hard data in order to feed Quickload!
Intended bullet, COL and barrel length.

But 21-25 grains of TrailBoss is a good start.

[dtknowles]

Why such a big case if you are shooting smokeless?

Tim

[oldred]

Why such a big case if you are shooting smokeless?

Tim

With the bigger 120 case vs the 45/70 for instance you can get better performance with some powders like H4895 for example, the 45/70 case won't even hold the 45/120 load, take H4895 and 400-405 gr bullets for instance, both from a 24" barrel.

45/120 and 64 grs of H4895, 405 gr bullet, 24" barrel -2012 FPS at 27,300 CUP

45/70 and 55 grs of H4895, 400 gr bullet, 24" barrel -1859 FPS at 26,500 CUP

Also with the right powder similar velocities at lower pressures or higher velocities at equal pressures can be done.

45/120 and 58 grs of benchmark, 405 gr bullet and 24" barrel -1917 FPS at 27,200 CUP

While the shorter 45/70 using 58.5 Benchmark and a 400 gr bullet produces a very similar 1986 FPS velocity it does so at 40,000 CUP.

The 45/70 is using a jacketed bullet while the 45/120 is using a nearly identical weight cast bullet so the jacketed bullet would account for some increase in pressure but 27,200 CUP vs 40,000 because of a jacket?


Of course the 45/70 will do about anything needing done and there is probably no "need" for the extra boost but for some folks need doesn't matter and it's all about fun, then there is the option of loading Black where the 120 can really make use of that extra space!

[Spooksar]

Why such a big case if you are shooting smokeless?

Tim

Basically I have lots of hunting rifles and I use the old time single shots for fun. The reason for smokeless powder is that Black powder is hard to find where I live.

[varsity07840]

Basically I have lots of hunting rifles and I use the old time single shots for fun. The reason for smokeless powder is that Black powder is hard to find where I live.

You are asking for trouble shooting smokeless in a cartridge never intended for it.

[oldred]

You are asking for trouble shooting smokeless in a cartridge never intended for it.

Why? It was "never intended for it" because smokeless simply didn't exist at the time but that in no way makes it retroactively unsuitable for the big cases. Smokeless is obviously better utilized in smaller cases and smaller bores where it is much more efficient but being less efficient in larger cases does NOT translate into "asking for trouble"! A great many people use smokeless in these old rounds and the performance of them can be increased over what they were "designed" for and done so safely.

The data I listed is published data from Hodgdon and is only a small sample of what they list, obviously Hodgdon doesn't think it's "asking for trouble" and some smokeless powders are actually meant to be used in these big cases, 5744 for example, and a lot of smokeless loads listed at Hodgdon and elsewhere actually produce lower pressures than the original BP loads! For sure smokeless can be dangerous in ANY cartridge if safe and established procedures are not adhered to but that's no more a problem for the old BP cartridges than it is for modern cartridge designs. There are many reasons to want to use smokeless and the OP listed his, which is a very good reason, but there are many more. BP is fun and a whole different sport that some of use really enjoy (I certainly do!) but for a variety of reasons someone may not want to use BP and the fact that smokeless is commonly used safely by probably more shooters than use BP plus a LOT of listed and proven data available would indicate that it is in fact a safe practice. You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I understand that however the facts, the published data, smokeless powder meant for doing this being manufactured and sold by reputable powder companies and the fact it has been done safely just about forever kind of negates the "asking for trouble" warning that some folks insist on.

I shoot both BP and smokeless in my BP cartridges (mostly 45-90) and have often been told I shouldn't shoot smokeless and should shoot only what it was "designed for" but just because it was "designed" before smokeless was available does not mean that smokeless wouldn't work when it did appear on the scene, did you know that even the 45-90 (according to Cartridges of the world) was factory loaded with smokeless starting in 1898 close to the time smokeless became available? How about the 45/70? It was "designed" only for BP but from the very beginning of the availability of smokeless it has been loaded with it on a scale that is orders of magnitude greater than it was ever loaded with black.

[GregLaROCHE]

I wish I had all that space when loading .45/70 with BP.

[oldred]

I wish I had all that space when loading .45/70 with BP.

Another REALLY good reason for the bigger cases! The extra space of the longer cases can be utilized to an advantage with either type of powder but especially when loading black. Obviously there is a point at which there can be too much space causing more problems than advantages and I have been told the 120 does just that, however there are also those who do like it and while it may be border-line too big it still works. I have no personal experience with the 45/120 but the 45/70 and '90 I have shot for many years works great with smokeless, the '90 has advantages over the '70 using either powder. IMHO the 45-90 would be the more popular round today had the 45/70 not have been chosen for the army resulting in so many rifles and so much ammo being available that it became the common sense choice at the time. The more I work with the '90 the more I like that case and eventually I hope to get in gear and chamber one of my rifles in one of the bigger cases, I have a 45-110 reamer and came really close to doing it a couple years ago and likely will go with that but the more I think about the 120 I just might decide to go all the way just for the fun of it and to find out for myself!

[MT Chambers]

I don't see any good using smokeless in such a large case, 45/90 maybe, but you will always be fighting with that half full case. The 45/120 would be fun to play with using BP, what it was meant for.

[Hamish]

You are asking for trouble shooting smokeless in a cartridge never intended for it.

DOUBLE FACEPALM.

(Sigh)

Black would surely be more fun to play with, but to say that smokeless is inherently dangerous?

[bikerbeans]

I had a 32" H&R Buffalo Classic that i reamed to 45-120. I only shot smokeless powder and i did try some of the Hodgdon loads. I found H4895 to be extremely position sensitive and i had ES of over 200 fps. I found i3031, i4320 and i4350 to work well without fillers. I don't have access to my load data and it would be too hot for your Uberta.

BB

[MT Chambers]

DOUBLE FACEPALM.

(Sigh)

Black would surely be more fun to play with, but to say that smokeless is inherently dangerous?

Yes I believe that in some instances, using certain smokeless powders, detonation can occur, and these older designs could send metal into your face, you just don't want large cases 1/3 full of some powders.

[straphanger]

I got a 45 3 1/4 Shiloh Sharps in 1982. Started out shooting shooting duplex loads w 105 gr 2f black and 10 gr of 4227, wads, grease etc behind 500 gr 457125. Even in a 14 lb rifle it is an experience. Today when I shoot it, I use 39 grains of Accurate 5744 w 457125. My recollection is that gives a velocity somewhere around 1600 fps. My local range is only 100 yds and I am shooting off the bench. It does kick a bit! In the old days I shot w X sticks from a kneeling position which is a better deal! Unless someone is really in to abuse, or you are stalking Cape Buffalo, I don't understand why anyone would want or need more velocity from a 500 gr bullet!

Actually, I was thinking about trying some of the 45-90 cast loads from the old Lyman handbooks such as 26 gr 2400 or 15 gr Unique to drop velocity back around 1300. As for the size of the case, don't see the issue w fast powders. I shoot Bullseye, Red Dot and W231 in a .45 Colt case designed for black. Works fine.

If someone on the forum has experience w "reduced" loads in a modern 45 120, I would appreciate the input. Similarly, if anyone has experience with taking 5744 below the published starting loads. At the moment all my cases are loaded, so it will be a while before I will be reloading again. My annual Sharps outing won't be for a few weeks yet.

[oldred]

Yes I believe that in some instances, using certain smokeless powders, detonation can occur, and these older designs could send metal into your face, you just don't want large cases 1/3 full of some powders.

Just as with ANY cartridge the 45-120 requires an appropriate powder, a lot of the suggested loads/powders provide a lot more fill than 1/3 of the case! Besides smokeless in these big cases is commonly done and there doesn't seem to be a rash of exploding rifle incidents, at least not with modern built rifles.

An old original BP rifle of questionable metallurgy or even a modern built firearm of an original weaker design probably should stay with BP even if low pressure smokeless data is to be used. My reasoning for this, and I am sure other opinions are out there, is that while a proper smokeless load would be at or even below BP pressures and thus should be safe there simply is little to no safety margin and thus no room for error with older original BP metals/designs. While double charging would be dangerous in any rifle even minor errors could be dangerous with a firearm that has minimal strength and little or no safety margin due to poor quality primitive steels and/or weak design. However this all has to do with the firearm itself and not the cartridge, in new replica rifles made of modern stronger steels or even proven design original rifles smokeless should be just fine as long as proper attention to loading is taken, this however is true regardless of new or old gun or caliber!