1909 Argentine load

[abunaitoo]

Guy at the range has a 1909 Argentine long rifle.
Nice condition, but he took all of the finish off.
To bad, it looks like it was in great condition.
He's been shooting old surplus ammo, he got from one of my friends.
Can't find anymore.
I'm trying to help make some reloads for him.
Formed the cases out of 30.06.
Loaded with some 314299 Lyman sized to 314.
Very hard to chamber, but it didn't shoot well so back to the drawing board.
I have a 1891 Carbine, and the rounds chamber fine in my rifle.
I used a Lee die to form the cases.
I've read that the Lee dies, sometimes needs to be shortened to fit the chamber when formimg.
Any ideas????

[cwlongshot]

Doesn't LEE say that there dies are not made for proper case re-forming? I have read many times of same problems.

Case forming can be troublesome for some folks. Did you anneal the brass first? Hows the neck diameters? I dont have issue forming 7.65, but if I dont anneal properly when I make 6.5/270’s I will have some Problems.
CW

[nueces5]

I have had problems with reformed cases of 3006, as it says it had not annealed and the shoulder seemed rounded, did not fit well into the chamber

[nicholst55]

I want to say that the chambers for the 1891 Argentine Mausers run deeper than those for the 1909 Mausers. I may be hallucinating, but I sure seem to recall reading that somewhere. Anyone else read that?

[cwlongshot]

I have both models and use the brass interchanging. Have t noticed anything. BUT im also not pushing things. The 1909 can take any sane loading. But my older model is a first model 1897 shrouded barrel version made here in Norwich CT. So questionable strength. Im happy with light lead punching holes.

CW

[15meter]

I've used a shellholder that I ground down .010 for forming, it sets the shoulder back a little further so it chambers better, after the first firing I go back to a standard shellholder.

Also, I annealed after forming, annealing first increases the chance of crumpling the shoulder.

[gnostic]

I had to trim my 7.65 argentine shell holder, with emery cloth to where the bolt closed snug. Those 1909 Argentine Mausers didn't come with blued actions. And the best way to make cases from 06's, is with a trim die and need to be neck reamed before sizing.....

[EDG]

I have a set of Lee 7.65 dies. I had a new set of Lyman dies and I currently have 3 sets of RCBS.
I have measured all these dies.
Both the Lyman and all the RCBS are a perfect match to the 4 chambers (3X 1891 and 1X 1909) that I have.
Lee dies are about .010 too long.

Lee dies can be poor dies for forming
1. The vent hole is some times right where the formed material turns the corner to make the shoulder resulting in a gouge on the shoulder of every case. Sometimes this can be eliminated by a thorough deburring of the inside of the vent hole.
2, Long and larger than .30 cal cases can jam the formed neck into the top threads of the sizer dies requiring that you cut off the cases to be trimmed first.
For the most part a trim die is better for forming but if you have nothing else you can usually get a Lee die to work.

Formed cases using USGI brass have rounded shoulders that only get sharp when fire formed.
I have formed about 500 cases to 7.65 and 8X57 from the same lot of SL54
30-06 brass. Both have the rounded shoulders until fire formed and annealed.
Both cases have donuts in the neck that form a thicker band around the neck after FL sizing and pulling the expander ball back through. However Mauser chamber necks are pretty big and I have never had a problem chambering the rounds so I never turn or ream necks.

Guy at the range has a 1909 Argentine long rifle.
Nice condition, but he took all of the finish off.
To bad, it looks like it was in great condition.
He's been shooting old surplus ammo, he got from one of my friends.
Can't find anymore.
I'm trying to help make some reloads for him.
Formed the cases out of 30.06.
Loaded with some 314299 Lyman sized to 314.
Very hard to chamber, but it didn't shoot well so back to the drawing board.
I have a 1891 Carbine, and the rounds chamber fine in my rifle.
I used a Lee die to form the cases.
I've read that the Lee dies, sometimes needs to be shortened to fit the chamber when forming.
Any ideas????

[Larry Gibson]

The Lee dies are made to 7,65 Belgian chamber dimensions of which the headspace is .010 longer than the 7.65 Argentine chamber headspace, particularly in M1909s. Given Lee's are made and marked as Belgian dies......

The chambers in many 91s are sometimes large enough that cases sized in Lee dies fit but many times with later made M91s and M1909s they won't. I prefer to simply shorten the Lee FL die .010" to solve the problem. With 7.65 Argentine dies made by Lyman and RCBS I've not found them to be a problem as they size cases correctly for Argentine chambers.

[Hick]

I want to say that the chambers for the 1891 Argentine Mausers run deeper than those for the 1909 Mausers. I may be hallucinating, but I sure seem to recall reading that somewhere. Anyone else read that?

This matches my experience. I measured the shoulders on some 7.65 ammo then fired them in my 1909 and remeasured as-fired, I could not find any growth in the cases at all. I then made 7.65 brass from 30-06 using the RCBS forming die and some of those cases were very difficult to chamber-- but I chambered them anyway. After firing and resizing they gradually adjusted to the chamber and I didn't have difficulty any more. You just have to build a stock of brass that is custom fit to the 1909-- and just use them for that one rifle. BTW-- my 1909 has a tight chamber but a long throat. I get the better accuracy in mine when I load the 314299 with one lube groove outside the case (would you believe COL = 3.070?)

[Adam20]

The Lee dies are made to 7,65 Belgian chamber dimensions of which the headspace is .010 longer than the 7.65 Argentine chamber headspace, particularly in M1909s. Given Lee's are made and marked as Belgian dies......

The chambers in many 91s are sometimes large enough that cases sized in Lee dies fit but many times with later made M91s and M1909s they won't. I prefer to simply shorten the Lee FL die .010" to solve the problem. With 7.65 Argentine dies made by Lyman and RCBS I've not found them to be a problem as they size cases correctly for Argentine chambers.

I have a belgium mauser 1935 short in 7.65 from MAE factory with Belgium proofs, lee dies were too long for it. Had to trim about .010 off fl die.

[EDG]

RCBS dies are also marked BM for Belgian Mauser and 2 of my RCBS die sets were manufactured long before Lee ever made a single 7/8-14 die.
One of my RCBS FL dies is date code N for 1963 and the second is dated 69. They are both marked 7.65 BM. Next is the RCBS FL die marked 7.65 BM and date code is 88. All three are the same length as the 3 1891 chambers that I have and the one 1909 chamber. In addition using a spread sheet to do the trigonometry, all my chambers and RCBS dies exactly match the dimensions of the CIP standard drawing. Without measuring equipment and trig skills it is not possible to compare the CIP dimensions to USA format measurements.
In contrast my 7.65 Mauser dies made by Lee are .010 longer than all of my chambers and all of my dies.
The Lyman die set that I had also matched my rifle chambers and RCBS dies.
Finally I have a L.E. Wilson case gage also marked 7.65 Belgian and cases checked in it match my dies and chambers.
I have no physical evidence of anything except that the Lee dies have to be wrong. Reports from others across the net have also indicated problems with Lee dies.

The Lee dies are made to 7,65 Belgian chamber dimensions of which the headspace is .010 longer than the 7.65 Argentine chamber headspace, particularly in M1909s. Given Lee's are made and marked as Belgian dies......

The chambers in many 91s are sometimes large enough that cases sized in Lee dies fit but many times with later made M91s and M1909s they won't. I prefer to simply shorten the Lee FL die .010" to solve the problem. With 7.65 Argentine dies made by Lyman and RCBS I've not found them to be a problem as they size cases correctly for Argentine chambers.

[Larry Gibson]

I have a belgium mauser 1935 short in 7.65 from MAE factory with Belgium proofs, lee dies were too long for it. Had to trim about .010 off fl die.

Adam

MAE was not a factory, it was a repair facility. They did not manufacture any parts. They did assemble M1935 rifles from various M98 actions and parts both new and used. The barrel on yours is probably a DWM made M1909 Argentine replacement barrel which would account for the tighter headspace and the need to shorten the Lee die.

[Larry Gibson]

EDG

Not sure where trig comes in as conversion of metric to inches is standard math. Also a "Google" of 7.65 Mauser cartridge will get you measurements of both.

The cartridge dimensions for the 7.65 Mauser, the 7.65 Belgian and the 7.65 Argentine are pretty close to the same. However, the problem here is with the chamber dimensions, not the cartridge dimensions. It appears that RCBS, Lyman, Pacific and Wilsons dies and gauges are made to the cartridge dimensions and many are thus marked. My Lyman dies (purchased in the early '90s have 7.65 Argen Mauser on the label with no mention of the 7.65 Belgian cartridge. My Lee dies (purchased in the 80s) had 7.65 Belgian Mauser on the label. Not sure what the RCBS said as they were used dies w/o a box when I got them.

The Lee FL die is apparently made to the original 7.65 Belgium/Mauser chamber dimensions as originally found in the Pre M98 and later M91s Argentine (especially those with replacement barrels) Mausers so chambered. The Lee formed/sized cases (w/o modification) would chamber in the 6 different M1935 FN made Belgian Mausers I tried them in. Those same cases would chamber in a couple early M91s but not in later M91s (or those with replacement barrels) and in one Turk M90 or M91 I had access to. They would not chamber in any M1909 (DWM or FMAP) 7.65 Argentine. All cases sized/formed in the Lyman and RCBS dies chambered in all the above rifles.

I'll also add the 7.65 Argentines, M91s and M1909s) with excellent bores (non corroded or pitted bored) had (slugged) groove diameters of .311 to .313. The 6 FN made M19035s had groove diameters of .314 - .316. Bullet diameters of milsurp 7.65 Belgian and Argentine ammo run .311 - .313. My pressure testing of several different lots of Belgian (FN made in the '30s) and Argentine made (2 different arsenals) ran 52 - 56+ psi.

[Adam20]

Adam

MAE was not a factory, it was a repair facility. They did not manufacture any parts. They did assemble M1935 rifles from various M98 actions and parts both new and used. The barrel on yours is probably a DWM made M1909 Argentine replacement barrel which would account for the tighter headspace and the need to shorten the Lee die.

The barrel could be a DWM, my bolt is German and the only serial number that does not match.
But they did manufacture and rebuild
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge...0etat%20gb.htm
History and records are pretty limited on the place

[Larry Gibson]

"After the creation of the “Fabrique Nationale” (FN) the M.A.E. is confined with maintenance, the repair or the reconditioning of the weapons of the Belgian army."

Quoted from the site you listed. Also verified from numerous other sources.

FN was established well before the M35 was made. M.A.E. was a repair facility and assembled firearms using components available from other sources. They used M98 actions for the M35 but couldn't build that model fast enough with war looming so they also made the M36, which was configured similarly to the M35 but with the different action, using 1889 actions.

Odds are your M35s action was a M98 surrendered after WWI with the original markings scrubbed and restamped with the M.A.E. markings on completion of rebuild. It is an interesting and excellent rifle.

[EDG]

The CIP dimensioning format is different. The CIP drawing locates the cone of the shoulder to the vertex of the included angle. The normal SAAMI dimensioning scheme uses a basic datum diameter ring to define the shoulder location. You would know that if you look at a CIP standard drawing and compare to a SAAMI drawing. Since the 7,65 is a German design CIP would be considered the parent standards organization. There is only one 7.65 Mauser listed in CIP and it is labeled Argentine.

Any reworked Mausers that have been rebarreled should not be compared to original manufactured product. All 4 of my Mausers (3X 1891 and 1X 1909)
have the original serial numbered barrels in excellent conditon. None are reworked nor rebarreled. Of the 1891s - 1 is a Loewe and 2 are DWM.
I mentions my dies above but I have also measured new Norma ammoi and brass as well as new PPU ammo and new brass. Norma brass is .004 shorter than all my dies and chambers. PPU is .003 shorter than all my dies and chambers.
None of this is based on memory. All my data is from existing dies and rifle chambers that I still have. Based on the preponderance of the evidence the Lee dies are wrong.

EDG

Not sure where trialg comes in as conversion of metric to inches is standard math. Also a "Google" of 7.65 Mauser cartridge will get you measurements of both.

The cartridge dimensions for the 7.65 Mauser, the 7.65 Belgian and the 7.65 Argentine are pretty close to the same. However, the problem here is with the chamber dimensions, not the cartridge dimensions. It appears that RCBS, Lyman, Pacific and Wilsons dies and gauges are made to the cartridge dimensions and many are thus marked. My Lyman dies (purchased in the early '90s have 7.65 Argen Mauser on the label with no mention of the 7.65 Belgian cartridge. My Lee dies (purchased in the 80s) had 7.65 Belgian Mauser on the label. Not sure what the RCBS said as they were used dies w/o a box when I got them.

The Lee FL die is apparently made to the original 7.65 Belgium/Mauser chamber dimensions as originally found in the Pre M98 and later M91s Argentine (especially those with replacement barrels) Mausers so chambered. The Lee formed/sized cases (w/o modification) would chamber in the 6 different M1935 FN made Belgian Mausers I tried them in. Those same cases would chamber in a couple early M91s but not in later M91s (or those with replacement barrels) and in one Turk M90 or M91 I had access to. They would not chamber in any M1909 (DWM or FMAP) 7.65 Argentine. All cases sized/formed in the Lyman and RCBS dies chambered in all the above rifles.

I'll also add the 7.65 Argentines, M91s and M1909s) with excellent bores (non corroded or pitted bored) had (slugged) groove diameters of .311 to .313. The 6 FN made M19035s had groove diameters of .314 - .316. Bullet diameters of milsurp 7.65 Belgian and Argentine ammo run .311 - .313. My pressure testing of several different lots of Belgian (FN made in the '30s) and Argentine made (2 different arsenals) ran 52 - 56+ psi.

[Larry Gibson]

Bottom line is the Lee dies many times do not size/form the cases sufficiently to chamber in many Argentine M91 and M1909 7.65s. The FL dies can easily be shortened .010" which solves the problem.

[KCSO]

I used a carbide cutter to cut off the bottom 20 thou of the Lee Die and always anneal the cases, then they will work fine. Also Grafs has Privi brass that is perfect for the gun and has the right headstamp.

[15meter]

I had to trim my 7.65 argentine shell holder, with emery cloth to where the bolt closed snug. Those 1909 Argentine Mausers didn't come with blued actions. And the best way to make cases from 06's, is with a trim die and need to be neck reamed before sizing.....

270 Winchester brass as the donor case may eliminate the need to neck ream, I've used them for 7mm Mauser without having to neck ream.

And as a plus, come deer season around here they show up in the scrap buckets at the range, fair number of guys still shoot them, not many reload for the .270.

Aw, shucks, free brass