Correcting headspace on Ishapore #2a1

[castalott]

Where can one buy bolt heads ( headspace is way to big) for these rifles? Are mark 3 bolt heads the same thing?


I know less than nothing about this and all help is appreciated.

Thanks,Dale

[Zingger]

While I am unsure if the Mk iii is the same, I would encourage you to look at Numrich. gunpartscorp.com is the website. Look at the SMLE and you should be able to find your 2a in the parts. Another option might be to just set your dies up to neck size and try to keep the old thing running as long as possible as is. I am assuming you have looked it over or had a competent gunsmith who is familiar with the "smelly" give it a good once over.
Be Safe...
Good luck!

[bob208]

a common problem with the lee-Enfield rifles. it was solved by soldering a brass spacer on the bolt face. I have some built up with hard chrome.

[LAGS]

I have soldered a Feeler Gauge shim to a Mosin Nagant Bolt face before.
It worked really good because the bolt head has a recess for the shim to fit into.
The LE is a flat face, and I would be worried that if the solder joint broke, it could fall off and you wouldn't know it for a while.

[Bigslug]

You might do well to not sweat what could be just large military headspace and neck size only for that one after the cases are blown out. Mine checked OK for 7.62 NATO headspace length, but the fired cases expand outward to where they won't fit into my Mo's screw-together case headspace gauge. Sizing the case body back to starting 7.62 dimensions repeatedly will likely kill the brass REAL quick. They were apparently designed to chamber a fair amount of mud along with the ammo.

[castalott]

I'll try that. Maybe Lee collet neck size. Thanks,Dale

[gnoahhh]

SMLE bolt heads used to be everywhere, and priced dirt cheap. Not anymore, you take them where and when you find them.

The thing is, the SMLE action is minimal for 7.62 NATO cartridges. They were never designed for a steady diet of that kind of pressure. Those Ishapore's were intended as a stopgap measure only while the Indians scrambled to acquire modern weapons chambered for the NATO round. Headspace issues have plagued those guns for decades and such will continue to grow as long as the gun is used.

Correcting by sizing brass to accommodate excess headspace is all well and good, but remember that there's just that much more brass exposed/unsupported behind the chamber as a result. The ongodly stretching upon initial firing is a definite limiter of case life, so it's far better to expand the neck of virgin brass a size or two larger and then re-size to establish a small secondary neck that keeps the head back snugly against the bolt face for initial firing. And then throttle back the reloads out of deference to a minimally designed gun.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Having worked on many L.E.s over the years I believed myself knowledgeable about them -- but this thread has perhaps exceeded what I know.
First -- I've never possessed or worked on an Ishapore #2a1. So, like the O.P. asked in the very first post, are the bolt heads the same as and interchangeable with the No. 1 Mk. III ? I don't know.
Second -- If a custom made washer or shim is attached to the face of a bolt head to close the headspace gap, is the original firing pin long enough to pass through the addition and fire the cartridge? I worked on a couple of badly out-of-headspace specimens in the gunsmithing school back in the very early '80s, and this was suggested as one possible way to correct the headspace, but the instructors would not allow welding or silver soldering on the bolt head, saying that it would likely destroy the heat treating and make the part soft. I was able to correct the condition by obtaining a new bolt body (unissued) and swapping it out for one of the rifles, and the second by obtaining a rare replacement bolt head which leads to a long, complicated story that I've related at least once before and will spare you from hearing again. I have a large parts drawer of Mk III bolt heads, but the problem with most of them is that the threads of the bolt heads aren't necessarily timed right for any given bolt body.
Thirdly -- Enlarged headspace in these rifles often is the result of compression of the area of the receiver immediately behind the bolt's side locking/safety lug, and when you reblue one of these rifles you can often see a purple area at that point where the receiver was spot heat treated.
Again, I was advised not to attempt to build the area up with weld because the possibility of softening the area of contact, but also again, an unissued bolt might compensate.
Fourthly -- Everything I've ever read about the No. 2 Indian rifles says that they were made of vanadium steel as the Indians were well aware of the No. 1's inability to handle the 7.62 NATO cartridge, and that using a superior steel solved the problem. So, I'm thinking that your best bets for solving your problem would be a replacement bolt or to set back the barrel a few thousandths and "tickle" the chamber. Re-barreling with a new barrel is also an option, but finding a new barrel is probably going to be very difficult. Try the Gun Parts Corp. and other parts suppliers -- you never know. I think that they're probably a good rifle, and worth the effort to restore.

[Texas by God]

BRP might have parts for the 2a. I owned one, no problems, but I traded it for a #4 that I liked better.

[frogleg]

Where can one buy bolt heads ( headspace is way to big) for these rifles? Are mark 3 bolt heads the same thing?


I know less than nothing about this and all help is appreciated.

Thanks,Dale

Hello I know the #2A and the #3 Bolt heads are Different, also Did you check head space with guages? if so did the bolt close easily on the NO Go gage ? Do not force the bolt handle down. and the bolt should really be dissasembled. just my 2cents. The two 2As I have had a 1966 and a 1967 where very good shooters and the actions are very smooth.

[Bigslug]

My own loading trials continue. . .

The rifle runs fine on GI 7.62 ball. In the early stages of generating cast loads for it. Feeding from the left side of the (mismatched) magazine is often problematic. It will frequently ram the nose of the round into the right rear of the barrel where the cutout for the extractor forms a sharp edge. The bolt will also on occasion miss the top of the cartridge rim of that left-side round and ram it back down into the mag body.

Trying to work out if it's cast bullet shape, blown out brass, or the mag not liking some combination of the two. If it needs full-length sized brass to feed, it may end up being a cheap ammo disposal system.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Sooooo.....it feeds o.k. with G.I. ball ammo. But jams up with cast boolits, especially feeding from the left side. I think you could file, polish, grind off the sharp edge of the extractor slot and polish the feed ramp -- that might help. But probably the best bet would be to buy a mold that turns out spritzer shaped boolits and cast them hard. Also, if one can be found, you might try a different magazine.

DG

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Gee...a typo. That's supposed to be "spitzer", not spritzer! I have a low number 1903 Springfield that I shoot with 30-30 level loads, and use a water dropped 165 gr. spitzer. Feeds flawlessly.

DG

[Bigslug]

There are certainly multiple dimensional gremlins at play. . .

A longer nose on the bullet will probably be a help as it would get the nose down the chamber before the round kicks right. . .

The ogive of the bullet (.30 XCB) extends a .300" diameter a good bit further forward on the cast bullets than GI jacketed due to the obvious need to provide support structure for the nose. That might be causing the rounds from the left to get kicked to the right by the front magazine lip sooner.

The front left feed lip may be partially at fault. . .

The rib down the sides of the magazine to act as a stop on the shoulder of the rounds may be partially at fault. . .

The increased diameter of the once-fired, neck-sized-only cases may be pushing the rims low enough that the bolt can't reliably catch them on the left side. There might be some shoulder geometry changes on the first fire that may be at work on the feeding, but trying a few full-length sized cases seems to kick it back on the "might be the bullet" theory.

It got late. Still have much to contemplate.

Frustrating and interesting at the same time. Frustrating, because the rifle appears to be rather challenged as a recycler of brass. Interesting, because in spite of that, it's a totally serviceable military arm that might have some advantages in that role (chambering muck or out of spec rounds) directly linked to the dimesional reasons why it's frustrating the hobbyist.

[cheese1566]

I have one and refurbed it a few years ago. I bought parts from a small firm at the time, but is no longer around. Same design, but parts are different in these gals. Bolts faces were common for the Lee Enfields, but scarce for the Ishy’s. I too have some really excessive headspace. I never shot factory from it, but the son of the gunsmith I bought from did a few.

I tried paper patching, but just settled on light cast loads using 10gr or so of unique. I added a Williams peep on the back and can shoot this all day at 3” steel at 50yds. Turns the heads of the young black rifle guys. They snicker when it comes out, but quiet down when they hear the steel clang.

I came across some surplus 7.62 brass I was told was shot in a large chamber machine gun. I never full lengthed size and only use a Lee collet neck die on them. No issues on several loadings.

Looks like Numrich has some stripped bolt heads (no size listed) and a few other parts.

[Adam Helmer]

My wife reminds me I have too many .303 SMLEs and Ishapore .308s on establishment. I reload for all. Yes, the Enfield actions have a bit of "spring" within and that is why I resize to just allow the bolt to close with a slight "crunch" fit on each individual arm and Label all reloads to a specific arm.

I have the Ishapore MKIII and Jungle Carbine .308s on establishment and all shoot jacketed and cast loads to the same point of aim and impact. What is not to like? I suggest reloaders SIZE cases to each individual arm by carefully checking for a slight
"crunch" fit when closing the bolt. Over Sizing the .303 or .308 SMLE will indeed shorten case life.

Adam

[Ed in North Texas]

snip
Fourthly -- Everything I've ever read about the No. 2 Indian rifles says that they were made of vanadium steel as the Indians were well aware of the No. 1's inability to handle the 7.62 NATO cartridge, and that using a superior steel solved the problem.

You are correct and this argument is OLD. Back when the Ishy 2A and 2A1s were first imported that story about using the same steel as they used for the No 1 Mark IIIs floated around, particularly on alt.rec.guns (told you it was old). One contributor was an Indian immigrant engineer who worked at the Arsenal and gave a pretty complete dissertation on the metallurgy involved in developing the 2A/2A1. Yes, it was a substitute standard to get 7.62x51 weapons in the field while they acquired the FAL design, but still were issued after adoption of the FAL. Some still didn't believe that the design could possibly be strong enough, guess they figured the Indian government didn't care about the loss of front line combat troops facing off against the ChiComs.

Speaking of substitute standard rifles, the M1917 was substitute standard for the 1903 and the action was far stronger than the 03. Being substitute standard doesn't necessarily mean substandard.

[castalott]

Thanks everyone for the replies... Life has gotten in the way of any reloading for now but I will return to it by winter ( or I will be crazy-lol). Keep the replies coming...

Thanks,Dale