Lee PrecisionRepackboxRotoMetals2Inline Fabrication
ADvertise hereMidSouth Shooters SupplyWidenersTitan Reloading

Page 9 of 13 FirstFirst 12345678910111213 LastLast
Results 161 to 180 of 259

Thread: Perspective from athiests/agnostics

  1. #161
    Boolit Master
    exile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    1,048
    Quote Originally Posted by UKShootist View Post
    A wonderful opportunity to split hairs there. For a start, you have to die in order to be resurrected. But that is not the essence of the debate. You, understandably, state your belief as fact but to me it is not. And being resurrected in body? Would that be my body when it was at it's best or this aged wreck I'm in now?
    I believe that we will be resurrected at our best. I certainly hope so anyway!

    I have only been to the U.K. once, passed through there on my honeymoon. Had an Egg Mcmuffin and a bathroom break at Heathrow, but never made it out of the airport. Would like to go back someday though.

    exile
    "There is not a single instance in history in which civil liberty was lost, and religious liberty preserved entire. If therefore we yield up our temporal property, we at the same time deliver the conscience into bondage." --John Witherspoon, The Dominion of Providence Over the Passions of Men. 1776

    "The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times." Psalm 12:6 (E.S.V.)

  2. #162
    Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,448
    Quote Originally Posted by T_McD View Post
    If it means more than one thing, grab a thesaurus and pick a different word. You are pot stirring, not adding anything meaningful. He is not alone in viewing worship as the unsubstantiated fawning of a feeble mind (my words). It most definitely does not have a positive connotation for many folks.
    We'll just have to differ on this. And please pardon my "feeble mind." It's the only one I've got. It was issued to me at birth, and I've stuffed it as best as I could, but I do not pretend it's infallible. But on the subject of "worship," I must stand firm.

  3. #163
    Boolit Buddy T_McD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    369
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    We'll just have to differ on this. And please pardon my "feeble mind." It's the only one I've got. It was issued to me at birth, and I've stuffed it as best as I could, but I do not pretend it's infallible. But on the subject of "worship," I must stand firm.
    You recognize you are not infallible, but insist your deity is??? I just Don’t get it.

  4. #164
    Boolit Master
    exile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    1,048
    "As for God, his way is perfect:
    The Lord's word is flawless;
    he shields all who take refuge in him."

    2 Samuel 22:31 (N.I.V.)
    "There is not a single instance in history in which civil liberty was lost, and religious liberty preserved entire. If therefore we yield up our temporal property, we at the same time deliver the conscience into bondage." --John Witherspoon, The Dominion of Providence Over the Passions of Men. 1776

    "The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times." Psalm 12:6 (E.S.V.)

  5. #165
    Boolit Buddy T_McD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    369
    Using scripture to defend scripture will not sway minds. You are simply parading your own “righteousness”. See also: whitewashed tombs.

  6. #166
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    361
    Quote Originally Posted by T_McD View Post
    You recognize you are not infallible, but insist your deity is??? I just Don’t get it.
    I'll do you one better.

    You recognize that not only are you fallible and every previous (and this current) iteration of "science" is fallible but insist upon hanging your entire world view on it. I don't get it.

    Edit: To clarify. This is not a personal attack on anyone. Just a demonstration that both sides point not to anything they are themselves or indeed exists tangibly but upon an idealized version of what they proclaim to be Truth. Any argument that is defeated doesn't matter because it wasn't "true religion" or "real science" that was defeated only the flawed example here and the only thing that matters is the intangible ideal. For most arguments the participants find it is useful to point out in the opponent and ignore on your side. But it's in both.
    Last edited by PerpetualStudent; 08-12-2019 at 09:09 AM.
    "There are no solutions there are only tradeoffs" ~ Thomas Sowell

  7. #167
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Northern Michigan
    Posts
    4,071
    Quote Originally Posted by PerpetualStudent View Post
    I'll do you one better.

    You recognize that not only are you fallible and every previous (and this current) iteration of "science" is fallible but insist upon hanging your entire world view on it. I don't get it.

    Edit: To clarify. This is not a personal attack on anyone. Just a demonstration that both sides point not to anything they are themselves or indeed exists tangibly but upon an idealized version of what they proclaim to be Truth. Any argument that is defeated doesn't matter because it wasn't "true religion" or "real science" that was defeated only the flawed example here and the only thing that matters is the intangible ideal. For most arguments the participants find it is useful to point out in the opponent and ignore on your side. But it's in both.
    You have stretched the fallibility of science a bit much. There is a lot of science that is known to be true and some science is based on theories. The difference with science is that as more knowledge (truth) is gained, science will change its position to encompass those "truths". Religion is not that disciplined.

    For example, many Christians embrace the new earth concept and believe the earth is about 6000 years old. Much convolution is used to explain away the inconsistencies of this belief as we learn more about the earth and the universe. But there are also Christians who believe the earth is billions of years old. So even among Christians, they cannot agree on the "truth" or the interpretation of Genesis in the Bible.

    IMHO, those "scientists" who try to prove the new earth concept are not scientists. It is one thing for a Pastor to believe such ridiculousness, but not for a scientist. My Pastor is one of those people who ridicules science and he gets a bunch of "amens" from the congregation when he does so. I see them as ignorant or brain washed...maybe stupid...maybe gullible? Certainly not scientists or critical thinkers. Why do I continue to attend this church.....he is a good Pastor and knows the Bible...he makes me think.
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  8. #168
    Boolit Buddy T_McD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    369
    Quote Originally Posted by PerpetualStudent View Post
    I'll do you one better.

    You recognize that not only are you fallible and every previous (and this current) iteration of "science" is fallible but insist upon hanging your entire world view on it. I don't get it.

    Edit: To clarify. This is not a personal attack on anyone. Just a demonstration that both sides point not to anything they are themselves or indeed exists tangibly but upon an idealized version of what they proclaim to be Truth. Any argument that is defeated doesn't matter because it wasn't "true religion" or "real science" that was defeated only the flawed example here and the only thing that matters is the intangible ideal. For most arguments the participants find it is useful to point out in the opponent and ignore on your side. But it's in both.
    Nothing personal taken, I will take criticism as easily as I give it.

    That said, what science am I hanging my world view on? I will freely admit that the scientific establishment is self serving as much as the religious one, if not more.

    My world view is based on my own observations as much as possible. That brings its own set of biases to deal with but at least they are my own and not someone else’s. I am very hesitant to make too many claims of certainty because to prove such claims is difficult. My most honest assessment of many issues is “I don’t know”; it admittedly feels like a cop out but at least it’s intellectually consistent (hopefully).

  9. #169
    You recognize that not only are you fallible and every previous (and this current) iteration of "science" is fallible but insist upon hanging your entire world view on it. I don't get it.
    It is possible that you can acknowledge science as fallible and yet hang your entire world view on it - you would do so because you sincerely believe that it is the best option available.

    That said - I do not fall into the camp that hangs my world view on science.

  10. #170
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    361
    Quote Originally Posted by T_McD View Post
    I will freely admit that the scientific establishment is self serving as much as the religious one, if not more.

    My world view is based on my own observations as much as possible. That brings its own set of biases to deal with but at least they are my own and not someone else’s. I am very hesitant to make too many claims of certainty because to prove such claims is difficult. My most honest assessment of many issues is “I don’t know”; it admittedly feels like a cop out but at least it’s intellectually consistent (hopefully).
    I think you and I are pretty much in the same boat there.

    Blackjack and Dverna's comments are not quite fair (but they are close)

    The difficulty with "Science fails forward" which is the thrust of "This is why I hang my worldview on science and eschew philosophy and religion" is that how do you define "forward"? You'll get some fighting about scientific advances, technology generally, which of course implicates social organization and we're back to the never settling economic measuring contest I mentioned before. Both fundamentalism and scientism are flawed, and these are the hard cores of conflict between the atheisticly inclined and the theistically inclined.
    "There are no solutions there are only tradeoffs" ~ Thomas Sowell

  11. #171
    Boolit Buddy T_McD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    369
    Yes I have to agree we are getting down to fundamental differences in thought. My goal in pursuing these discussions is not to change beliefs but rather to challenge the notion that these fundamental differences amount to much.

    To me if I am able to have an intellectual conversation someone and we finally conclude that we must agree to disagree, I have proven to myself that we have much in common. I am far from a bleeding heart, but it is disheartening to see fierce division in spite of overwhelming similarities.

  12. #172
    Boolit Buddy T_McD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    369
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Jaque Janaviac View Post
    It is possible that you can acknowledge science as fallible and yet hang your entire world view on it - you would do so because you sincerely believe that it is the best option available.

    That said - I do not fall into the camp that hangs my world view on science.

    Would it be fair to say the same of religion? Or is infallibility of scripture a personal requirement for your world view? (This is admittedly wandering off topic so PM if you’d rather)

  13. #173
    Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,448
    Quote Originally Posted by T_McD View Post
    You recognize you are not infallible, but insist your deity is??? I just Don’t get it.
    I must confess, I don't understand what one has to do with the other. I and my deity are two completely separate beings. Please explain.

  14. #174
    Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,448
    Quote Originally Posted by T_McD View Post
    Nothing personal taken, I will take criticism as easily as I give it.

    That said, what science am I hanging my world view on? I will freely admit that the scientific establishment is self serving as much as the religious one, if not more.

    My world view is based on my own observations as much as possible. That brings its own set of biases to deal with but at least they are my own and not someone else’s. I am very hesitant to make too many claims of certainty because to prove such claims is difficult. My most honest assessment of many issues is “I don’t know”; it admittedly feels like a cop out but at least it’s intellectually consistent (hopefully).
    If your "world view" is based on your meager life experiences, which CANNOT encompass all of human knowledge and experience, then what makes you so all-fired sure of yourself and your contentions? If you have never had a conversion experience, or had one and chose to walk away from it for whatever reasons seemed sufficient at the time, then how can you even relate to a believer, or truly consider the things he says, to you or to anyone else, or to all???

    First you limit your intake, and define it as including only the finite, and then challenge those who believe, and KNOW (yes, KNOW) Christ, and all that He brought to us? This is a lot like the story of "The King's New Clothes," isn't it? Only in reverse. The king in the story was told he was wearing the finest clothing, but he was naked as a jaybird! He was "seeing" things that weren't there. You, on the other hand, are failing to see things that you don't WANT to be there. So as I said, it's the reverse, but the principle applies nevertheless.

    If you wanted to find faith, you'd make a FAR more diligent search for it than you have. And your attitude is one that could never "hear" Christ's voice - far too self-possessed and haughty. If you want to depend on yourself for all there is in life, then you can absolutely do that, but it's not necessary, and there really IS a better and far more fulfilling way to go. But it's totally up to you whether you really want or intend to find the simple Truth or not. It's very easy to make up your own, and finding Truth CAN sometimes be rather arduous, so it's not for the frivolous types, or the self-possessed, or the wanton types. But it's always there, even for those who currently don't believe, or don't even want to. Life is funny, and sometimes, things happen that totally alter a person's outlook and attitude. Remember, even people like C. S. Lewis came to not only believe, but he became one of Christianity's most prominent and highly lauded apologists, who explained much of the true value of faith, was in the beginning an highly dedicated and resolute atheist like yourself. And even though he made a rather monumental effort to disprove Christianity and all other religions, he came to faith in that very process.

    But maybe this is why so many atheists adamantly refuse to seriously address the matter? Fear of discovering how terribly wrong they were is not something that enhances the larger egos, that look only to themselves for answers. Lack of, or having turned away from, a true conversion experience can be a huge stumbling block for many disbelievers who simply are afraid of finding what they don't want to find. But if they did, they'd find something entirely different from what they always tried to make it out to be. They'd find fulfillment and joy unlike anything they could ever have known or experienced as a non-believer. And it's all out there, waiting for anyone to discover. And in reality, it doesn't take all that much study or consideration. All it really takes is a humble spirit, that searches sincerely. Then, and I think only then, can they know what the rest of us believers already know. And don't expect an easy life when the conversion occurs, should that be your fate. Christ never promised us an easy life if we came to Him. On the contrary, he told us specifically that we'd be taunted, sometimes harmed physically, and even hunted to the death at times. But no matter what challenges face us, Christ will always be there with us, and if our lives are to end in the process, He'll be there to extend His hand, and welcome us into Heaven, to live in peace and harmony with Him forever, without end. All you have to look forward to, were you right, is the nothingness that the Buddha described as "nirvana." And that's not much of a future if you ask me. But it's not MY life, it's YOURS. Do as you see fit, but beware! Many who have tried to disprove Christianity have become believers! It just seems to work out that way, and it's not by accident!

  15. #175
    Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,448
    Sounds like you're having much the same experience as I had growing up. But you're right, even those old preachers, with their lack of education (and thus weren't very good at drawing fine dividing lines), made me think. I'd usually do as you seem to, and just find one point in the sermon, and then sit and think about it for the duration. And indeed, I did learn a lot that way. But I've learned more reading C. S. Lewis, Chesterton and a number of others, than I ever could have in a lifetime of listening to those old preachers. A man can't teach what he doesn't know, and through no fault of their own, really, they just didn't know a lot. It often takes a lot of scholarly learning to separate the wheat from the chaf, and the really good writers convey a lot that lesser educated men can, regardless of their sincerity and devotion.

    And the very act of attending church is a sort of vote, with our feet, for the Lord, and His plans for us. So don't stop going, but at some point, they'll get a new preacher, maybe, or you'll hear of a really good one, and move to that church, or .... who knows? The development of our faith as a Christian is a curious thing, and it often tends to come in spurts, and often, when we least expect it, or have thought about giving up the search. Christ promised "Seek and ye shall find," and that is very, very true, BUT .... He never said we'd find it easily. Maybe He wants us to work for it, so we'll appreciate it more??? All I know is that I don't believe anyone has ever come to Christ, and been totally satisfied with what he knew at that point. All of us search. It's just that some maybe have more time to do it than many of us others. And we each are often searching for different things, so it's really no great wonder that the search can be frustrating if we are anxious to find the answers. I know I was anxious, and that really delayed my edification quite a while. But the search never ends for any of us, even the most learned. That old principle that the more we know, the more questions we have, applies to our search for "perfect understanding" as much or more than it does to any other search of any kind. But as I look back, I have to have a great deal of humor, for I made some really dumb mistakes that delayed my edification quite a bit. But the search was worth every milisecond of it! Finding true peace and satisfaction is worth anything it costs us in the process. I always fought a rather large temper. Now, I haven't lost it in quite a while, and I'm not sure that I could now. It's simply the process of growth, and that never happens rapidly, but steadily, if we just keep on our feed.

    Just enjoy all the conundrums you encounter, and they'll likely wind up showing you the Truth. It's a paradox, but it's very much real.

  16. #176
    Boolit Buddy T_McD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    369
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    I must confess, I don't understand what one has to do with the other. I and my deity are two completely separate beings. Please explain.
    Let me preface by saying, no offense is meant. I am just trying to speak plainly.

    To me your deity is a personification of your belief. Christianity is predicated on the notion of the “personal relationship” with God.

    My point was this,

    You are not infallible. It follows then, that you cannot claim your beliefs are infallible. If your beliefs are not infallible, then on what do you base your claim of an infallible God?

    You are appealing to a moral authority that exists only in your mind. (In so far as you claim to know the identity of God, and that he is infallible)

    There seems to me little difference in thinking yourself god and thinking yourself qualified to know the nature of God. What places you at an advantage over me in the identification of God?


    Sorry to ramble, just getting thoughts down on paper so to speak.

  17. #177
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Derby, UK.
    Posts
    265
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    This is a lot like the story of "The King's New Clothes," isn't it? Only in reverse. The king in the story was told he was wearing the finest clothing, but he was naked as a jaybird! He was "seeing" things that weren't there.
    At risk of splitting hairs, you completely misunderstand the story of the King's New Clothes. The King wasn't seeing things that were not there, he was pretending that he could see he was wearing the finest clothes because he had been told that only truly clever people could see these magic clothes, so he and all his courtiers pretended to see fine clothes for fear of being condemned as fools which, of course, is what they were. It remains pertinent to this discussion though.

  18. #178
    Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,448
    Quote Originally Posted by T_McD View Post
    Nothing personal taken, I will take criticism as easily as I give it.

    That said, what science am I hanging my world view on? I will freely admit that the scientific establishment is self serving as much as the religious one, if not more.

    My world view is based on my own observations as much as possible. That brings its own set of biases to deal with but at least they are my own and not someone else’s. I am very hesitant to make too many claims of certainty because to prove such claims is difficult. My most honest assessment of many issues is “I don’t know”; it admittedly feels like a cop out but at least it’s intellectually consistent (hopefully).
    If your "world view" is based solely on your own world experience, then it's no great wonder that you don't believe! If you've never had a real conversion experience, then how could you possibly know or realize what Christians talk about? You can't. And it surely seems that you don't even want to.

    Let's just assume, for sake of argument here, that God really does exist, and that He's all-powerful and all-knowing. What makes you think that He can have no other means of communicating with his lower creatures except via shaking the molecules of air, that we call "sound?" What makes you think He couldn't talk to one person in a crowd of thousands? What makes you think He couldn't have created the entire universe out of nothing????

    Your limited view is what keeps you doubting. If you were truly open-minded, and your heart was open, you'd very likely realize that it's YOU, and not God, who is insufficient for understanding salvation and all the rest. God gave us thunder and lightning, and a voice from above. Then He gave us the prophets, and miracles. But even those were insufficient to get us to follow Him, so in a final act of Love and Mercy, He sent His only begotten Son, to teach us and set examples for us to follow. And now, those who can't or won't even acknowledge His existence and teachings, have had the last vestige of effort on the part of God to bring us, his recalcitrant flock, all together under His protection and grace. Where else could they wind up being relegated to, but hell, to spend eternity there with the Evil One? It all makes perfect sense, if you really stop and think about it. But non-believers simply don't WANT to find the Truth, so they turn away from good counsel, and declare "There is no God because I haven't found Him!" What a foolish way to conduct one's self! But it's legitimate. God granted us that privilege, if it's what we choose. But it'll never really make sense, in the end. And almost surely, you haven't found God because you haven't wanted to, and it's just that simple. You rule out any course that might tend to lead you to belief, and then complain because you haven't found it??? C'mon, man! Get real, and at least use some of that "logic" and "reason" that you non-believers so highly tout! You don't believe because you simply don't WANT to, and avoid anything and anybody that might actually make any inroads into your hardened heart or closed mind. God be with you. You need Him sorely!

  19. #179
    Boolit Buddy T_McD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    369
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    Sounds like you're having much the same experience as I had growing up. But you're right, even those old preachers, with their lack of education (and thus weren't very good at drawing fine dividing lines), made me think. I'd usually do as you seem to, and just find one point in the sermon, and then sit and think about it for the duration. And indeed, I did learn a lot that way. But I've learned more reading C. S. Lewis, Chesterton and a number of others, than I ever could have in a lifetime of listening to those old preachers. A man can't teach what he doesn't know, and through no fault of their own, really, they just didn't know a lot. It often takes a lot of scholarly learning to separate the wheat from the chaf, and the really good writers convey a lot that lesser educated men can, regardless of their sincerity and devotion.

    And the very act of attending church is a sort of vote, with our feet, for the Lord, and His plans for us. So don't stop going, but at some point, they'll get a new preacher, maybe, or you'll hear of a really good one, and move to that church, or .... who knows? The development of our faith as a Christian is a curious thing, and it often tends to come in spurts, and often, when we least expect it, or have thought about giving up the search. Christ promised "Seek and ye shall find," and that is very, very true, BUT .... He never said we'd find it easily. Maybe He wants us to work for it, so we'll appreciate it more??? All I know is that I don't believe anyone has ever come to Christ, and been totally satisfied with what he knew at that point. All of us search. It's just that some maybe have more time to do it than many of us others. And we each are often searching for different things, so it's really no great wonder that the search can be frustrating if we are anxious to find the answers. I know I was anxious, and that really delayed my edification quite a while. But the search never ends for any of us, even the most learned. That old principle that the more we know, the more questions we have, applies to our search for "perfect understanding" as much or more than it does to any other search of any kind. But as I look back, I have to have a great deal of humor, for I made some really dumb mistakes that delayed my edification quite a bit. But the search was worth every milisecond of it! Finding true peace and satisfaction is worth anything it costs us in the process. I always fought a rather large temper. Now, I haven't lost it in quite a while, and I'm not sure that I could now. It's simply the process of growth, and that never happens rapidly, but steadily, if we just keep on our feed.

    Just enjoy all the conundrums you encounter, and they'll likely wind up showing you the Truth. It's a paradox, but it's very much real.
    I must take issue with a few points:

    1) I have not dismissed any belief, rather in attempting to attain it, I have been left wanting. Those who truly dismiss religion do not engage in these discussions. Those who have not chewed over their beliefs but are willing to devote their life to it are fools.

    2) I addressed this in my previous post but I will give you time to respond; what makes you more qualified than me to identify God?

  20. #180
    Boolit Buddy T_McD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    369
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    If your "world view" is based solely on your own world experience, then it's no great wonder that you don't believe! If you've never had a real conversion experience, then how could you possibly know or realize what Christians talk about? You can't. And it surely seems that you don't even want to.

    Let's just assume, for sake of argument here, that God really does exist, and that He's all-powerful and all-knowing. What makes you think that He can have no other means of communicating with his lower creatures except via shaking the molecules of air, that we call "sound?" What makes you think He couldn't talk to one person in a crowd of thousands? What makes you think He couldn't have created the entire universe out of nothing????

    Your limited view is what keeps you doubting. If you were truly open-minded, and your heart was open, you'd very likely realize that it's YOU, and not God, who is insufficient for understanding salvation and all the rest. God gave us thunder and lightning, and a voice from above. Then He gave us the prophets, and miracles. But even those were insufficient to get us to follow Him, so in a final act of Love and Mercy, He sent His only begotten Son, to teach us and set examples for us to follow. And now, those who can't or won't even acknowledge His existence and teachings, have had the last vestige of effort on the part of God to bring us, his recalcitrant flock, all together under His protection and grace. Where else could they wind up being relegated to, but hell, to spend eternity there with the Evil One? It all makes perfect sense, if you really stop and think about it. But non-believers simply don't WANT to find the Truth, so they turn away from good counsel, and declare "There is no God because I haven't found Him!" What a foolish way to conduct one's self! But it's legitimate. God granted us that privilege, if it's what we choose. But it'll never really make sense, in the end. And almost surely, you haven't found God because you haven't wanted to, and it's just that simple. You rule out any course that might tend to lead you to belief, and then complain because you haven't found it??? C'mon, man! Get real, and at least use some of that "logic" and "reason" that you non-believers so highly tout! You don't believe because you simply don't WANT to, and avoid anything and anybody that might actually make any inroads into your hardened heart or closed mind. God be with you. You need Him sorely!

    Then you believe only because you want to. That is indeed a fine personal justification, but it doesn’t translate well to others. Am I to believe based on your personal desire to believe?

Page 9 of 13 FirstFirst 12345678910111213 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check