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Thread: Perspective from athiests/agnostics

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by RED BEAR View Post
    Boy that sounds crazier than what i said it all started from nothing. And nothing became unstable and shatered into matter and anti matter. Now thats out there. And exactly how would you prove that? Sounds a bit sceptical to me. Now exactly where did the matter and anti matter come from oh wait i got it from nothing. You do realize that anti matter is a hypnotist not a fact. The scientists are using the hadron collider to try and prove there existence but it ain't been proven yet. In theory both matter and antimatter have mass and weight so exactly how did that come from nothing. Now why did the matter change? And exactly how did space time and gravity come into being ? Because matter and antimatter came from nothing and since they did they had to change and shizam you get space time and gravity oook. You can't see how this sounds nuts. My eye doctor is a physicist who's main accomplishment is a paper he submitted to nasa that proves light has weight. We have some pretty good discussions about these type things even he can't say that the big bang can be proven.
    Yes, it is a Theory that would be very hard to prove. Asking me to explain the Big Bang Theory in more detail is too much for this forum. I suggested you study the topic in more detail if you want to discuss it and that discussion probably belongs on a Physics or Cosmology forum.

    If you want to study the Big Bang Theory, this is a good place to start.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

    Tim
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  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by RED BEAR View Post
    ……….... You do realize that anti matter is a hypnotist not a fact. The scientists are using the hadron collider to try and prove there existence but it ain't been proven yet. In theory both matter and antimatter have mass and weight so exactly how did that come from nothing. Now why did the matter change? And exactly how did space time and gravity come into being ?. .
    Without light and matter all you have is a void, God.

    No space, no time, no gravity, just God.

    God said let there be light and now you have a Universe. With Light you now have space, time and gravity. With nothing and nothing changing you have nothing to mark time or space, it is a spaceless, timeless void. When God created light he created more than light, the light came from reaction, maybe matter, anti-matter reactions.

    Anti-matter is real, no joke. Why did you think it was just a hypothesis?

    Minuscule numbers of antiparticles are generated daily at particle accelerators – total production has been only a few nanograms[1] – and in natural processes like cosmic ray collisions and some types of radioactive decay, but only a tiny fraction of these have successfully been bound together in experiments to form anti-atoms."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimatter

    Tim
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  3. #83
    An atheist simply believes in one less god than you.
    You missed the point of the original post. I don't care what you "believe" in or don't believe in. I'm more interested in what you worship. If you don't believe in a god, do you worship money? fame? power? What is the most important thing in your life? What do you make great sacrifices for?

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Jaque Janaviac View Post
    You missed the point of the original post. I don't care what you "believe" in or don't believe in. I'm more interested in what you worship. If you don't believe in a god, do you worship money? fame? power? What is the most important thing in your life? What do you make great sacrifices for?
    An interesting post, as well as a useful reminder of the OP.

    Why do you assume the need to worship? Worship is a concept I am extremely uncomfortable with. The dictionary definition is stated thus: "the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity." but the word carries so much more by way of implication that that dry definition.

    Personally, I do not worship anything or anyone. I find the very thought of doing so an anathema. The nearest I get to that might arguably be my commitment to seeking the truth in anything, from the question of religion to the best way of opening a tin of beans. One particular truth I believe I have discovered is that if a man writes a book and then says that what he has written must be true because it says so in that book and the only proof of it that is needed is that it is written in that book defies adequate description of the ridiculous nature of such a proof.No offence is intended towards those people who's blind faith leads them down that path, but to me and many like me, such a self defining 'proof' cannot possibly make any sense at all.

    That particular truth does not, IMO, automatically discard every single word in that book, but it does leave the content open to challenge.

    I believe that 'faith' is a barrier to finding the truth. A person's faith is an inevitable tool for flying in the face of demonstrable evidence. Doubt is the real tool for learning. The first thing a scientist will do upon making a discovery is to make every possible effort to disprove it. That is the very last thing a person of faith will do because to do so would challenge the very essence of his being.

  5. #85
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    I feel I might add something to the post above. In respect of people who follow a religion I see two basic types. One is the person who accepts the broad tenets of his religion while allowing that there might be holes in their holy book. They are guided by the principles of that religion, in the case of Christianity this is mostly the nice bits. I have a good friend who I would describe as a devoted follower of the teachings of Jesus and I regard him as a good man.

    The second type are the Bible lawyers. They will justify just about anything by quoting the Bible in the manner of a law book. I consider that sort of believer as one who uses his religion to avoid any responsibility for his actions. They view their decisions as justified because, yes, you've guessed it, it says so in this book. If the decision in question appears a pretty horrible one, well, it's noting to do with them because it's what God wants. I will reserve comment upon such people.

    For clarity, I have referred to the Bible for convenience and because this board is mostly occupied by people who consider themselves Christians. Other holy books are available. Very Many other holy books. What I have said applies to them and their followers all.

  6. #86
    Why do you assume the need to worship? Worship is a concept I am extremely uncomfortable with. The dictionary definition is stated thus: "the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity." but the word carries so much more by way of implication that that dry definition.
    Yes. I know one common use of the term "worship" is the idea of someone groveling on their knees before a statue or god. But another common use of the term is when someone makes an object the center of their life's mission - such as when we say, "he worships money".

    For the purposes of this thread - worship is to have the latter meaning.

    There is a need to worship. Humans have a drive to have something in their life that has a higher meaning. Some cause, or some thing that we see as greater than ourselves. Otherwise if a person lives their life as if there is nothing else greater than themselves . . . well we tend to thing of those people as making a mess of their lives.

    The nearest I get to that might arguably be my commitment to seeking the truth in anything, from the question of religion to the best way of opening a tin of beans.
    Yep - you nailed it! You said truth, another person said virtue.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    I'm a believer who totally accepts science.
    Okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Finally, for life to exist, the third law of thermodynamics would have to be stood on its head! I'm gullible but not gullible enough to put my faith in scientists and believe any of their creation explanations!
    That is a very bold statement. That being the case I feel sure you can explain it so please share that explanation.

    The Third Law of Thermodynamics

    The third law of thermodynamics states that the entropy of a system approaches a constant value as the temperature approaches absolute zero. The entropy of a system at absolute zero is typically zero, and in all cases is determined only by the number of different ground states it has. Specifically, the entropy of a pure crystalline substance (perfect order) at absolute zero temperature is zero. This statement holds true if the perfect crystal has only one state with minimum energy.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKShootist View Post
    That [third law of thermodynamics] is a very bold statement. That being the case I feel sure you can explain it so please share that explanation.
    Bold? Or reasonable?

    Okay, you ask and I can explain but I'm quite sure you already know exactly what I was saying.

    In application, down where the real rubber actually hits the road, that 3rd law means, "all things move from order to disorder" and that means all things fall apart as they age. That's pure science, I believe it and it's obviously true even to a casual observer. But ....

    "Scientists" who start from a position that, "There is no God so what we see absolutely has to have occurred by old things accidently falling into bigger and better things", i.e., things must have moved from simple forms to complex forms, from disorganized particles to highly organized, from dead stones to life systems .... and believing that my friend requires turning the Third Law of Thermodynamics on its head.

    So, at its core, non-believing scientists MUST start from the rejection of God, otherwise their whole flimsy house of theoretical cards collapses in dust. Truth is, a LOT of very intelligent scientists ARE confirmed Christians but narrow minded and vicious peer group professional needs require them to be quite about it!

    But, again, I'm certain you already knew all that so what's your point?
    Last edited by 1hole; 07-30-2019 at 10:35 AM.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Bold? Or reasonable?

    Okay, you ask and I can explain but I'm quite sure you already know exactly what I was saying.

    In application, down where the real rubber actually hits the road, that 3rd law means, "all things move from order to disorder" and that means all things fall apart as they age. That's pure science, I believe it and it's obviously true even to a casual observer. But ....

    "Scientists" who start from a position that, "There is no God so what we see absolutely has to have occurred by old things accidently falling into bigger and better things", i.e., things must have moved from simple forms to complex forms, from disorganized particles to highly organized, from dead stones to life systems .... and believing that my friend requires turning the Third Law of Thermodynamics on its head.

    So, at its core, non-believing scientists MUST start from the rejection of God, otherwise their whole flimsy house of theoretical cards collapses in dust. Truth is, a LOT of very intelligent scientists ARE confirmed Christians but narrow minded and vicious peer group professional needs require them to be quite about it!

    But, again, I'm certain you already knew all that so what's your point?
    Thank you for replying. You have certainly explained a lot, more than you might think.

  10. #90
    One particular truth I believe I have discovered is that if a man writes a book and then says that what he has written must be true because it says so in that book and the only proof of it that is needed is that it is written in that book defies adequate description of the ridiculous nature of such a proof.
    I am truly sorry that you encounter such fallacious logic amongst Christians. It goes against everything we've been taught about truth in our Western Civilization. When determining the truth of a matter we are taught that you consider the matter from many perspectives and angles. Such that, if you are trying to determine if the Bible is true, then you do NOT simply read the Bible! In Western culture we never apply such foolish logic to anything else.

    However, there is another fallacy that some atheists engage in - a double standard fallacy. They will accept the veracity of the existence of Alexander The Great, but go to great lengths to deny Christ. The historical evidence for ATG is really thin compared to that of Christ, yet I know of no sane person who denies the existence of ATG.

    Do people even realize that there is a wealth of written material that comes from very, very early in the Church's history? If you studied that evidence, where do you suppose it might lead you?

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Jaque Janaviac View Post
    However, there is another fallacy that some atheists engage in - a double standard fallacy. They will accept the veracity of the existence of Alexander The Great, but go to great lengths to deny Christ. The historical evidence for ATG is really thin compared to that of Christ, yet I know of no sane person who denies the existence of ATG.

    If everyone claimed that Alexander the Great was the son of God, born of a virgin, healed cripples, opened blind eyes, cured leprosy, fed 5,000 people with 5 loaves and 2 fish (and had leftovers), turned water into wine, walked on water, raised the dead (3 times), put people's severed ears back on their heads, and was killed only to rise from the grave, trust me, sane people would have a doubt or two.

    I don't doubt that Christ possibly existed.
    It's the other stuff that gives me a slight pause.
    Life is a series of bullseyes and backstraps - Ted Nugent

  12. #92
    If everyone claimed that Alexander the Great was the son of God, born of a virgin, healed cripples, opened blind eyes, cured leprosy, fed 5,000 people with 5 loaves and 2 fish (and had leftovers), turned water into wine, walked on water, raised the dead (3 times), put people's severed ears back on their heads, and was killed only to rise from the grave, trust me, sane people would have a doubt or two.

    I don't doubt that Christ possibly existed.
    It's the other stuff that gives me a slight pause.
    Right. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. But the evidence for Christ is mountainous (hint: not just the Bible) compared to ATG.

    There are two types of truth seekers. Those who find a nugget of truth and promptly set it aside the moment they realize it means they need to change the way they are living. And there are those who hang on to the truth and change their lives accordingly.

  13. #93
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    Can anyone explain the "science" behind Ouija board?
    The inability of science to fully explain a thing does not necessarily make that thing a fairy tale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sureYnot View Post
    Can anyone explain the "science" behind Ouija board?
    Easy. There is none.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKShootist View Post
    Easy. There is none.
    Exactly

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  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by sureYnot View Post
    The inability of science to fully explain a thing does not necessarily make that thing a fairy tale.

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    That is accurate.
    Just because science doesn't understand something yet, doesn't make it a fairy tale. I gladly concede that.
    That's the point of science is to test and see if we can fully explain something. If we knew everything, there would be no need for science.

    I would add that the fact that something is written in an ancient book, does not make that thing a reality.
    Life is a series of bullseyes and backstraps - Ted Nugent

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkansas Paul View Post
    I would add that the fact that something is written in an ancient book, does not make that thing a reality.
    Naturally. I could write a book right now and it wouldn't magically become true after a couple thousand years.

    I've read the book of every major religion and I don't see why any of them has to be in conflict with what science says is true.
    In a way, Genesis actually supports the big bang theory/evolution. It claims God as the driving force but the order of creation pretty much follows the evolutionary chain indicated by science.

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  18. #98
    That's the point of science is to test and see if we can fully explain something. If we knew everything, there would be no need for science.
    But is there some aspect of truth for which science is not an adequate tool? Not just inadequate at the moment, but just not the right tool to begin with?

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Jaque Janaviac View Post
    But is there some aspect of truth for which science is not an adequate tool? Not just inadequate at the moment, but just not the right tool to begin with?

    I don't think so, but obviously can't prove that.
    Just because we don't understand something right now, doesn't mean that it is unknowable. It just means we may not have the capability to test it and figure it out at this moment.
    Life is a series of bullseyes and backstraps - Ted Nugent

  20. #100
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    This thread has been a most interesting discussion to follow. I can understand that people might believe there is a God, although if there is I personally would question his character. I can understand that people might believe that Jesus, who I'm pretty confident did exist, has a closer than ordinary relationship with God, perhaps might even be God. Why not? What I cannot understand are the Bible lawyers who insist that every word is the literal truth. To me, and I sincerely do not mean to offend, much, possibly most, of the Old Testament are fairy tales once told around the campfire at night to keep the ghosts away at best, and at worst are utter demonstrable puerile nonsense.

    The mental gymnastics such Bible lawyers perform to demonstrate their 'faith' are astounding, especially when it comes to demonstrating their total failure to understand basic science and scientific principles, indeed their total determination to deliberately misunderstand.

    It doesn't bother me too much that such people seem to need to believe such things until they enter into a debate and use their ignorance as if it is proof. To me, it insults my intelligence, (N.B. if they are to be believed, a God given intelligence). Tell a fake medium that they are fake and they will be most offended. Tell a person suffering from schizophrenia that they voices they hear are not God telling them what to do but are the result of a malfunctioning mind and they will be equally annoyed.

    The biggest mystery of all, to me at least, is why (according to the Bible lawyers) their benevolent, loving, and forgiving God who understands everything will judge a man who has lead a good life full of merit but who has failed to be convinced that Jesus is his saviour, whether through science, a poor teacher, or merely being a member of another faith from birth, worthy of an eternity, (a trillion trillion years multiplied a trillion times is only a starter to eternity,) suffering the fires and tortures of hell. Really? This God some people want to worship? I would rather believe there is no God than such a God. And if it is the exact truth then I am bound to hell, where I believe I will at least find better company.

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