Full Wadcutter loads, recommendations, please

[sniper]

Hi!
I have some 148 gr Double-ended wadcutters, sized .358 that I bought from Matt Dardas before he retired.
I just read C.E. Harris' article on the Full Wadcutter load, and it is very interesting.

I am now looking for a Wadcutter load in the 800-900 fps neighborhood, loaded in 357 Magnum brass, standard primer, 4" barrel. Boolits will be relubed with BLL or Lars' 45-45-10. Do button -nosed wadcutters have any advantage over the flat-ended type?

I have Unique, AA #5, Universal and Trail Boss. I figure somewhere in there, I should find a good, accurate load for general use...maybe even to 50 yards and beyond.

Can anyone suggest a good starting point/go-to load with my available powders?
Thanx!

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I never found a significant difference in DE or FB wadcutters, and 148 gr. is the standard size. I had great luck with 2.5 gr. of Bullseye powder, which was kind of a standard load for the old PPC game. But, I never loaded this loading in .357 Mag. brass, always .38 Spec. Certainly the other powders you mentioned will perform well with wadcutters, but my experience with them has been to drive JHP bullets at higher velocities. Speculation only, but Trailboss might be your best choice for a 8-900 fps. wadcutter in .357 Mag. brass due to it's increased bulk.

[Dale53]

I load 3.5 grs. Bullseye in a .38 Special case behind a double ended wadcutter. Hodgdon has info on their website using the .357 case. Check that out:

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

Or, you can safely add 1.0 grs to my .38 Special load when using the .357 case without issue.

I have used the full charge wadcutter (as in the Ed Harris article) for years in the field on small game with excellent results.

Dale53

[rintinglen]

I have used 5 grains of Unique with the Lyman 358-63 loaded flush with the .357 case mouth. I do not know the velocity, but it felt like a +P 38. The 160 grain 358-432 worked better when crimped in the crimp groove and driven by 6.5 grains of unique, but I must confess that I only shot a box or two of these, as I had a 4 cavity 358-477 at the time that made a lot of boolits quickly and that got more use.

[Drm50]

I shoot nothing but Wadcutters in all but 3 of my revolvers. In 38/357 both I shoot the button nose WC. In m14 K38 , M19 and m27. I use 357 brass in 19 & 27. It just makes sense to me that use of the longer 357 case provides less "jump" from chamber to barrel. I load Unique and Bulleye and velocities of about 750. These WCs are cast soft. I have cast up hard WCs for 357 and ran them close to 1000fps. My Bro has a full lug K38 6" 10x with Leoupold scope and with the hardcast WC & Bullseye at 850fps he shoots into 4" at 100yds from rest. I have the double end WC mold too but like the button nose better. Also a HBWC which is very accurate the slower you shoot it 650fps range. I shoot the button nose in 44sp, 44mg, 45ar and 45 colt. Don't have a 41 WC mold or I would be using it.

[35remington]

4.7 - 5.0 of Unique or a tenth or two less of Universal should get you where you want. Universal is not particularly desirable in low pressure loads in low loading density situations as here, which is verging on that condition if you want 800 to 900 fps. Some diligent testing will reveal whether the powder is acceptable for this use with varying position in the case. I already have an opinion on the matter.

It does better (Universal) under wadcutters in 38 cases than 357 cases when going 8-900 fps from a 4 inch. Trail Boss should do fine but cannot recommend a load for it based on personal experience.

The button nose is supposed to help aerodynamics theoretically making them more stable to slightly longer range, but I must say both work out to 50 yards which is about all I want most of the time. I sort of like the dead flat face and like to imagine it makes an impact difference but nothing living I shot with the button nosed type acted or bit the dust differently than when hit with the flat ended ones.

[StrawHat]

I load 3.5 grs. Bullseye in a .38 Special case behind a double ended wadcutter. Hodgdon has info on their website using the .357 case. Check that out:

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

Or, you can safely add 1.0 grs to my .38 Special load when using the .357 case without issue.

I have used the full charge wadcutter (as in the Ed Harris article) for years in the field on small game with excellent results.

Dale53

My experience mirrors Dale’s with the exception that I have not used magnum cases.

Kevin

[Outpost75]

In .357 Magnum brass with solid-based DEWC seated to 1.32" OAL you can load up to 5 grains of Bullseye or TiteGroup, 5.5 grs. of 231 or HP38, 6 grains of Unique or Universal, or 9 grains of Alliant #2400. These are heavy field loads which are also accurate, exceeding .38 Special +P energy.

[RU shooter]

I used the load that outpost 75 states . With my 358495 button nose WC I tried 5gr of BE but 4.5 shoots better in my 686 . I'm sure it will shoot through anything I need it too .

[Petrol & Powder]

sniper - Outpost75 (and all others on this thread) have provided solid information.

As for the button nose wadcutter shape, there's some evidence that the small, flat button nose shape improves the stability of the wadcutter but I've never seen a big difference in accuracy. Some people say that nose makes loading easier when using speedloaders. I think with slightly chamfered chambers ("charge holes" in S&W speak), even flush seated full WC's are fairly easy to use with speedloaders; so that difference may be insignificant.

I'm a big fan of standard pressure full wadcutters in 38 Special. It is a useful round. Stepping up to a 357 mag casing requires a little more powder to achieve the same velocity with all other factors equal. A little more case volume requires a little more powder (as all the other members on this thread have pointed out)

[country gent]

The button nose is also thought to help cut full dia holes when competing in matches like NRA pistol ( 2700). I have used a lot of wadcutters over the years, Star National alberts home cast. For awhile 160grn wadcutters were gaining some use. It takes a lot of testing in a very accurate gun to see the real difference between the noses of wadcutters.
My load is very accurate from all my firearms but not in your 8-900 fps range. My load is 148 grn HBWC 2.7 grns bullseye (old) rem pistol primer in a 38 spl case. This load also works well with a double end wadcutter

[Dale53]

One thing I don’t see mention of here:
I have been present three times on the range, when hollow base wadcutters resulted in damage to a both a revolver or auto. The skirt separated and stayed in the barrel (probably caused from a slightly heavy charge for the hollow base). The front of the wadcutter hit the target so there was no reason to to believe there was a problem. The next shot bulged the barrel.

This will NOT happen with a solid base wadcutter. I have had no problem reaching match accuracy with solid base wadcutters, so I quit using hollow base wadcutters years ago after witnessing those failures.

I use full charge wadcutters, as I mentioned, for both range and field use. I have seen little difference in either accuracy or use on game between my double ended wadcutter or my H&G #50 button nose wadcutter. Frankly, my double ended mould is an iron, six cavity H&G mould that weighs nearly five pounds with handles. As I have gotten to be an old man, the H&G four cavity iron mould for the #50 is much less tiring to use. As a result, I tend to cast more of the button noses for general use.

FWIW,
Dale53

[Outpost75]

Skirt separation can sometimes happen firing factory .38 Special HB wadcutters in .357 revolvers.

I once saw a new-agent class at Quantico average 66 hits on a 60-shot Tactical Revolver Course when the bureau first changed from .38 Special Model 10-8s to .357 Model 13s.

[Jtarm]

One thing I don’t see mention of here:
I have been present three times on the range, when hollow base wadcutters resulted in damage to a both a revolver or auto. The skirt separated and stayed in the barrel (probably caused from a slightly heavy charge for the hollow base). The front of the wadcutter hit the target so there was no reason to to believe there was a problem. The next shot bulged the barrel.

This will NOT happen with a solid base wadcutter. I have had no problem reaching match accuracy with solid base wadcutters, so I quit using hollow base wadcutters years ago after witnessing those failures.

I use full charge wadcutters, as I mentioned, for both range and field use. I have seen little difference in either accuracy or use on game between my double ended wadcutter or my H&G #50 button nose wadcutter. Frankly, my double ended mould is an iron, six cavity H&G mould that weighs nearly five pounds with handles. As I have gotten to be an old man, the H&G four cavity iron mould for the #50 is much less tiring to use. As a result, I tend to cast more of the button noses for general use.

FWIW,
Dale53

According to Glenn Fryxell, the HB gives no better accuracy than solid base WC.

I assume that’s IF the boolits are both a proper fit.

[facetious]

I think the button nose was so you colud use the seating stem for a SWC to seat them.

[Groo]

Groo here
Load Trailboss to bottom of bullet where you seat it, use a heavy crimp in crimp groove or over edge of flat[ever see factory target loads NOT so crimped???]
Light with a hot or magnum primer.
Have fun...

[quail4jake]

In .357 Magnum brass with solid-based DEWC seated to 1.32" OAL you can load up to 5 grains of Bullseye or TiteGroup, 5.5 grs. of 231 or HP38, 6 grains of Unique or Universal, or 9 grains of Alliant #2400. These are heavy field loads which are also accurate, exceeding .38 Special +P energy.

Thanks Outpost! What charges of those powders would you recommend for .38 Spl +P loads (using .38 Spl brass) using that same DEWC? How close are Universal and Unique as far as interchangeability?

[Outpost75]

Thanks Outpost! What charges of those powders would you recommend for .38 Spl +P loads (using .38 Spl brass) using that same DEWC? How close are Universal and Unique as far as interchangeability?

For use in .357 guns only, use the same charges at the SAME ctg. OAL. Or reduce 10% if loading shorter to 1.20" OAL in .38 Special cases for use in sturdy revolvers like Ruger SP101, Service Six, Speed Six, Colt Official Police, S&W Model 20 Heavy Duty.

Universal varies somewhat from lot to lot and is close to, but not fully interchangible with Unique, as some lots do run faster.

[Drm50]

HBWCs in my experience have to be kept at lower velocities than solid base. I can see the problem with skirt causing barrel buldge. Never saw it myself but do notice groups opening up the faster you push them. The button nose WC has been around a long time, never thought about it being designed for SWC seater.

[Good Cheer]

The Speer HBWC with the little spherical bulge on the front also had a step that became a jimdandy GC base when the little bulge was trimmed off. Then the hollow base could be used for a variety of nose styles.