The Bible.... Myth, Real, or Both?

[Rizzo]

Here is my only struggle with belief.

God supposedly give all humans free will yet children that are too young to have any sense of will or even physical ability to do anything die. Now I understand even at the ripe age of 100 years old is but a blip compared to eternity. However why would he allow such wrong to children. It seems to take the Choice and free will away. I struggle with belief when I heard of horrible things about children. Something I'll never be able to shake. A true suffering without baptizing yet and without mercy. Not something I'd expect from the rest of the teachings and sacrifices of Jesus.

It's called Karma - The Law of Cause and Effect.
"You reap what you sow"
We are accountable for all of our actions. Good and bad.
Sometimes accountability does not take place in this lifetime and carries over to our next life.

For a child who is being bullied, for instance, there is a good chance the child was a bully in his/her past life.

Jesus healed a lot of people. Isn't it interesting that after he healed them he would say "...go and sin no more.."?
Jesus knew there was a reason why the person was suffering. It was from actions in a past life.

Oh no, the OP is talking about Reincarnation!!!!
Yup. The Bible is sprinkled with examples of it.

That is why Jesus admonished the apostle who cut off the ear of one of those who came to take Him away.
"No!....You live by the sword, you die from the sword!" - Karma

[1hole]

Oh no, the OP is talking about Reincarnation!!!!
Yup. The Bible is sprinkled with examples of it.

Oh? I didn't know about any reincarnation! Perhaps you could cite 3-4 of those examples so we can get it straight? Even 1-2 would be a big help.

[BigBore45]

Oh? I didn't know about any reincarnation! Perhaps you could cite 3-4 of those examples so we can get it straight? Even 1-2 would be a big help.

Yeah I dont recall reiteration either. Karma yes. Not spand over lifetimes.... how would you ever get to heaven if you keep being reincarnated?

[Thundarstick]

Is my understanding that when we use the word Karma in equivalence to "you reap what you sow", that we are using the word wrong. My understanding of Karma is that it follows one into the next life, as a learning experience. The grace of Jesus is that we don't have to reap what we sow! In Christ we don't "get what we deserve"!
The "live by the sword, die by the sword", is in reference to our actions and violence, along with ones job. The same can be said for police officers and solders today, who truly "live by the gun" and often die by the gun.

[Rizzo]

Oh? I didn't know about any reincarnation! Perhaps you could cite 3-4 of those examples so we can get it straight? Even 1-2 would be a big help.

Sorry for the late replies as I had to go out of town for several days.

Well, I did give some examples already but one that sticks out in my mind is the prophesy that Elijah would return before the Messiah (Jesus).
Elijah reincarnated as John the Baptist to fulfill that part of the prophesy.
When asked by the apostles about it, Jesus confirmed that Elijah had come back as John the Baptist.

There are many documented cases of people having past life experiences.
Knowing specific details of past events and places.

"I didn't know about any reincarnation!"
Well, you should read up about it.
It's a fascinating subject.

[Rizzo]

Yeah I dont recall reiteration either. Karma yes. Not spand over lifetimes.... how would you ever get to heaven if you keep being reincarnated?

The word is reincarnation, not reiteration.

In general, through your lifetime you may accumulate bad karma from bad actions done.
Let's just called them sins.

You ultimately get to heaven when your slate is clean.
That is, all of your bad karma has been accounted for.
You reincarnate into a new life that will give you an opportunity to address those issues that need to be worked out.

One can conclude that ultimately we all get to heaven, eventually.
It depends on our actions.

Eternal damnation because of our sins? Nope.

[Rizzo]

.......The grace of Jesus is that we don't have to reap what we sow! In Christ we don't "get what we deserve"! .....

Wow, so we get a free ride to heaven, despite what we do, because Jesus died for our sins eh?
Well then, "Party on Garth!" ...nothing to worry about.
Uh-huh, uh-huh.
I don't think so.

[1hole]

Wow, so we get a free ride to heaven, despite what we do, because Jesus died for our sins eh?
Well then, "Party on Garth!" ...nothing to worry about.
Uh-huh, uh-huh.
I don't think so.

I don't think so either, certainly not the way you put it. Many folk, including a lot of supposed Christians, wrongly expect man must "earn" his way to heaven by doing nice things. Not so; see Mat 7:21-23 for those who do good works without an internal heart change. Thing is, IF men could be "good" enough to earn salvation by works, it would not have been necessary for Jesus to sacrifice himself in our stead.

Christians are secure for eternity. But be aware there is no "free ride" for anyone; people who think if they simply claim Christ then they can play "good" and are safe so they can live as they always did are deadly incorrect (see Mat 7:21-24). Only people who are spiritually "born again" and made a new person by the Holy Spirit (John 3:1-17) will be saved and their lives, tho still imperfect, will show it.

Thus is the crux of it; if there is no life change then there has been no new birth and there will be no salvation no matter what they may claim. And a long list of "good works", of itself, proves nothing spiritual.

[Thundarstick]

Wow, so we get a free ride to heaven, despite what we do, because Jesus died for our sins eh?
Well then, "Party on Garth!" ...nothing to worry about.
Uh-huh, uh-huh.
I don't think so.

Rom 6:1-14

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[fn] that we should no longer be slaves to sin-because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

If you care to read for yourself!

[1hole]

...Well, I did give some examples already but one that sticks out in my mind is the prophesy that Elijah would return before the Messiah (Jesus). Elijah reincarnated as John the Baptist to fulfill that part of the prophesy.
When asked by the apostles about it, Jesus confirmed that Elijah had come back as John the Baptist.

There are many things in scripture that are figurative, not literal and those are two. Others include calling Jesus "the lion of the tribe of Judah", the "rock of ages" and a "lamb", none of which are even remotely literal.

"I didn't know about any reincarnation!"
Well, you should read up about it.
It's a fascinating subject.

You're referring to Hinduism and I'm quite familiar with it. Those supposed earlier "lives" you speak are by no means evidence of a reincarnation. Fact is, almost by definition, no Hindu (or anyone else) has any memory of a prior existence. But, and this is the bottom line of those fascinating "reincarnation" stories, many people have been and are indwelt by satanic demons and those demons DO have memories of people they have indwelt in prior times.

All meaning, don't be so quick to absorb all those reincarnation fantasies as if they are true in the sense you think.

[Rizzo]

There are many things in scripture that are figurative, not literal and those are two. Others include calling Jesus "the lion of the tribe of Judah", the "rock of ages" and a "lamb", none of which are even remotely literal.

The prophesy of Elijah coming before Jesus is figurative, not literal?

The way I see it is if the Bible is wrong about Elijah coming (reincarnated as John the Baptist) then Jesus was not the Messiah.
If the Bible is correct, then John the Baptist was Elijah as Jesus stated.
How do you not see that?

You're referring to Hinduism and I'm quite familiar with it. Those supposed earlier "lives" you speak are by no means evidence of a reincarnation. Fact is, almost by definition, no Hindu (or anyone else) has any memory of a prior existence. But, and this is the bottom line of those fascinating "reincarnation" stories, many people have been and are indwelt by satanic demons and those demons DO have memories of people they have indwelt in prior times.

No, I am not referring to Hinduism.
Although they also believe in reincarnation.

Are you aware that reincarnation was part of the early Christian's (such as the Gnostics) beliefs up to around 500AD?
Most of those old early books were destroyed because it did not fit the current beliefs of those in power.
Later (1945 - 1947) scrolls from Egypt were found and then the Dead Sea scrolls. Those early beliefs resurfaced and described matters such as reincarnation etc. for the "modern world".

Regarding the experience of recollecting a past life is because of demonic possession,........perhaps, but I doubt that all of them are. That's a convenient way of passing them off. Actually I have heard that "explanation" for other things that aren't in the Bible such as some of the things that some yogis in India have demonstrated. (levitation, mind reading, being buried alive for several days, etc., etc.)

Perhaps you have heard of Edgar Cayce who was a devout Christian who read the Bible every day but started having experiences that changed his view on a lot of things, including reincarnation.
He thought that he was perhaps doing the devil's work and it worried him. Ultimately he concluded that all of the good things he was doing (helped heal people with a variety of ailments, etc., etc.) could not be the devil's work but was an instrument of God to help people.

All meaning, don't be so quick to absorb all those reincarnation fantasies as if they are true in the sense you think.

Reincarnation fantasies, eh?
<sigh>
That's actually insulting to my beliefs.

I really do not see a problem for Christians to believe in Karma/Reincarnation.
It seems to threaten their belief system, but it should not.
Like I have stated before, the Bible is sprinkled with examples of both like I have posted.

[a danl]

Wow, so we get a free ride to heaven, despite what we do, because Jesus died for our sins eh?
Well then, "Party on Garth!" ...nothing to worry about.
Uh-huh, uh-huh.
I don't think so.

jesus is the one that paid the price of all your sins only if you believe. only because of the shedding of blood. without blood there is no life. and either one believes the whole bible or they don't and if they don't that makes them an unbeliever. god so loved the world that he gave his only son to die for anyone that believes

[1hole]

...Perhaps you have heard of Edgar Cayce ....

I've read enough of Cayce's writings to know he was several cards short of a full deck. You do understand that Satan can appear as a dazzeling light or most anything else he may wish and he is a great deceiver.

Reincarnation fantasies, eh?
<sigh>
That's actually insulting to my beliefs.

Insulting? Well, I'm fully accountable for what I said but not for how anyone else cares to read it. And I said nothing insulting.

It seems you believe some of those stories of reincarnation; I don't. Wonder what guides you to believe some re-up stories but not others. ????

There's not much left to say about that.

[EDG]

If it is not literal then it is subject to your interpretation- based on your thoughts and your judgment right? So who decides what is literal and what is not literal?
At the point it becomes your interpretation based on your thoughts and judgment it ceased to be the word of your god. It just becomes the old time worn word game that you guys play.

There are many things in scripture that are figurative, not literal and those are two. Others include calling Jesus "the lion of the tribe of Judah", the "rock of ages" and a "lamb", none of which are even remotely literal.



You're referring to Hinduism and I'm quite familiar with it. Those supposed earlier "lives" you speak are by no means evidence of a reincarnation. Fact is, almost by definition, no Hindu (or anyone else) has any memory of a prior existence. But, and this is the bottom line of those fascinating "reincarnation" stories, many people have been and are indwelt by satanic demons and those demons DO have memories of people they have indwelt in prior times.

All meaning, don't be so quick to absorb all those reincarnation fantasies as if they are true in the sense you think.

[a danl]

If it is not literal then it is subject to your interpretation- based on your thoughts and your judgment right? So who decides what is literal and what is not literal?
At the point it becomes your interpretation based on your thoughts and judgment it ceased to be the word of your god. It just becomes the old time worn word game that you guys play.

if you would let the holy spirit guide your thinking then maybe one would understand the truth

[Rizzo]

I've read enough of Cayce's writings to know he was several cards short of a full deck. You do understand that Satan can appear as a dazzeling light or most anything else he may wish and he is a great deceiver.

Insulting? Well, I'm fully accountable for what I said but not for how anyone else cares to read it. And I said nothing insulting.

It seems you believe some of those stories of reincarnation; I don't. Wonder what guides you to believe some re-up stories but not others. ????

There's not much left to say about that.

Well, I originally posted a reply to another poster and you then asked me some questions.
I replied to your questions with examples in the Bible like you asked.

I asked you some questions and you ignored them.
It seems that you are uncomfortable discussing them.

You seem to be the "Don't confuse me with facts!" type of person.

Instead you went off on a tangent about your devil "fantasies".
Yes, nothing left to say about that.

[1hole]

Well, I originally posted a reply to another poster and you then asked me some questions.
I replied to your questions with examples in the Bible like you asked.

You did. And I responded. You didn't like my response, demon possession, but you sure got it.

I asked you some questions and you ignored them.
It seems that you are uncomfortable discussing them.

You seem to be the "Don't confuse me with facts!" type of person.

Since you have a very fragmented and misunderstood knowledge of scripture and a mind closed to God but not to "reincarnated" spirits we have no common ground to discuss most things. I simply don't enjoy beating my head against rock walls and it would do you no good if I did.

Instead you went off on a tangent about your devil "fantasies".
Yes, nothing left to say about that.

Tangent devil fantasy? I spoke directly to your stated fastination with reincarnation! You believe in reincarnation by spiritual transfers; do you not also believe in a spiritual Satan and his demonic hordes? I do, and I know they're not fantasy.

Shirley McClain would love to discuss your ideas but I don't. I grew out of beating my head against rock walls decades ago. It wouldn't be fun for me and it wouldn't do you a bit of good if I did.

So, I'll add you to my prayer list and leave your heart in the hands of the Holy Spirit.

And there are the facts!

[Char-Gar]

jesus is the one that paid the price of all your sins only if you believe. only because of the shedding of blood. without blood there is no life. and either one believes the whole bible or they don't and if they don't that makes them an unbeliever. god so loved the world that he gave his only son to die for anyone that believes

Question: If Jesus had been strangled or suffocated to death, without any shedding of blood, would there be atonement for sin?

Question: If one believes the Bible contains metaphor and symbolism, is that person an unbeliever?

Question: If a person believes that New Testament teaching takes precident over Old Testament teaching, is that person an unbeliever?

[Char-Gar]

Just a note: Reincarnation is totally inconsistant with Christian tradition, thought, theology and Scripture. Holding such a belief itself does not make a person non-Christian, all things considered, but such a belief does fall outside the lines.

[a danl]

Question: If Jesus had been strangled or suffocated to death, without any shedding of blood, would there be atonement for sin?

Question: If one believes the Bible contains metaphor and symbolism, is that person an unbeliever?

Question: If a person believes that New Testament teaching takes precident over Old Testament teaching, is that person an unbeliever?

the new testament is about the NEW covenant because the old has passed away. that all changed when jesus died on the cross and yes he had to shed his blood and by the way as predicted in the old testament none of his bones were broken.so that prophecy would be fulfilled .