The Bible.... Myth, Real, or Both?

[Blackwater]

It is doubtful you know much of anything about your own ancestors only 6 generations back.
You want us to believe that the Bible has been handed down through various interpretations by HUMANS to more humans to more humans with unknown agendas for nearly 2000 years without a single error? That is not possibly true except in some fantasy.

Well, EDG, you apparently haven't heard that original scrolls have been discovered and dug up, and their texts match almost perfectly the Bible we read today. Yes, it's been interpreted into English and every other dialect, and those translations may be suspect in certain minute places. But yes, it's almost perfectly intact, as to content. Isn't it amazing how the Lord can protect His teachings? You may not believe, but you MUST wonder how such a seemingly impossible thing as that could possibly happen, don't you. That's a concrete and conclusive fact, that many who don't believe, and don't want to, conveniently leave out of their explanations of why they can't and don't believe.

And as to science, that was mentioned above as "There IS no science in the Bible," well ..... that is patently untrue. There are no formulas for mixing up concoctions, or blueprints of how to build a car or plane, but did you know that the Bible is the ONLY text to have ever described the creation in the EXACT order in which it occured, according to modern science's findings? Did you know that sub-atomic physics theories can explain exactly how it may well have been possible for Christ's physical body to have passed through a locked door, without opening it? If you don't know these things, you can't possibly say what you have here, and expect it to be believed by those who do.

And as to science and the Bible conflicting, it was once considered to be so, but that was back when "Darwin's Theory" was accepted as truth, and today, it is ever increasingly evident that Darwin's theory may describe "adaptation," but it does most emphatically NOT describe evolution, as it is commonly perceived and discussed today. Science increasingly supports the Bible, and its accounts. So does Archeology. So does everything else. We are living today in the most fact filled world that has ever existed, but many find what some book or teacher calls a few facts, and never checks back to see if they've found anything more or different. If we just searched more, we'd know more, and that applies whether it be the Bible or science or whatever we're considering. Like Christ promised, "Seek and ye shall find." The real problem is many quit searching once they've found an answer that satisfies them. What a mistake that is! And BTW, did you know the Catholic church, that is so despised and hammered by the secular folks, owns, paid for and operates a huge astronomy telescope, and staffs it with VERY highly educated priests, and that thier standing among other astronomers is very high? Again, there are many things you have apparently not been known to you, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Christians have the most concrete of all reasons for their belief. And experience with Christ himself! If you've never had that experience, it doesn't mean you can't, or that you never will. All that's necessary is that you truly seek Him with a truly humble spirit, and an open heart and mind. And when He comes, it will be as with a whisper. He is never obtrusive or showy. He is quiet, so as to quieten our own spirits and outlook. I hope you come to know him, but that's up to you.

[Blackwater]

"Religious people often think of faith as confidence based on a perceived degree of warrant, while others who are more skeptical of religion tend to think of faith as simply belief without evidence." Not my words but I think appropriate.

If we were able to prove God exists, faith would not be needed, but the various "proofs" I have read are convoluted and next to useless for a non-believer.

Neither is it possible to prove God does not exist. There are good arguments that we cannot understand why terrible things to people who seem innocent if there is a loving all powerful God, but they still do not prove there is no God. Talk to a couple who have lost a new-born and most will have little use for God unless they have years of faith to depend on. For unbelievers, it "proves" God is not what He is made out to be.

Faith is difficult. But without faith, we will not be able to accept God.

Regrettably organized religion can be an impediment to non-believers seeking God. It happens when man gets involved with almost anything. Pettiness, jealousy, pride, greed, ignorance etc, are evident in many churches. For non- believers looking for answers, do not let the shenanigans of churches dissuade you. Most do good things but they are not perfect. A good church and pastor will make you think and read the Bible. As to the Bible, I do not believe every word to be the Word of God, but there is much to be learned from studying it.

I am reminded of the saying, "A leap of faith". Yes, that will be required, and in time it happens if you keep an open mind.

BTW, some of most closed minded people you will meet will be those who have believed in God and attended church since they were children. They are unable to fathom how anyone cannot believe in God, or accept the inerrancy of the Bible. In my experience, most are good people but not critical thinkers. They have strong faith and do not want it challenged.

Don, there is some truth in what you say, but in most of it, you describe the problems of humanity, and not of Christ or of religion itself. Many who believe have great difficulty in following Christ's directions and advice. But they believe, and if they're truly trying, and just combating a bit of a too haughty spirit within themselves, they they are still Christians, but just very poor examples of real Christianity. And yes, it is indeed sad that so many cannot really describe or relate to a non-believer all the reasons they believe. But sadly, that's the state of far too many modern believers. We all have jobs and family and often, pastimes, that limit our time to spend studying. But when the weekends come, when we DO have some time, we often spend that time doing something else. Is it any wonder then, that so many sputter, stutter and go " ....mmmm" when they're asked WHY they believe? Of course not. The problems are all within the PEOPLE, and not with religion, or with Christ. It's with our ignorance, which we do far too little to cure. So that should never turn anyone away from a search for the real and unfailing Christ.

Instead, why not look at the best among us, rather than the dregs???? I know you've recently come to belief. What was that experience like for you? Was it as if some sort of other-dimensional portal was opened, and you at once KNEW that it was Christ standing before you, reaching out His holy hand, and inviting you to partake of His forgiveness, His grace, and His mercy? That's a real "conversion experience," and I use that word "knew" in the full and complete meaning of the word. One CAN know things by means beyond what our temporal world commonly realizes. Those who've never had such an experience cannot possibly relate to it. Only those who've had it can really understand what I speak of here. But it's very real, and it's not limited to anyone. It's available to all who truly seek, and who do it with a humble and sincere spirit. Only then is it possible for the Lord to speak to people, and truly become very, very real to them. Again, those who've not had such an experience cannot possibly relate. But for them to say it can't and never did happen is ridiculous on the face of it. You can't know something you're not seeking, and are actually averse to even thinking or talking about. This is why some non-believers dismiss such things out of hand. They think they have seen all, and know all, and that nothing is possible beyond their meager human experience. Silly of them, I know, but they do it. We seem to have, as humans, a capacity and taste for the ridiculous far too often. God speed to all here.

[dtknowles]

Well, EDG, you apparently haven't heard that original scrolls have been discovered and dug up, and their texts match almost perfectly the Bible we read today. ...……...

The Dead Sea Scrolls do match some parts of the old testament but they only account for a fraction of the Bible. It would be nice of someone actually had a original letter written by one of the Apostles.

Tim

[dtknowles]

I am pretty comfortable with the idea that David wrote the psalms.

I believe that Revelations is an allegory of a spiritual path an ongoing struggle between good and evil.

I think Genesis is a bunch of parables.

The miracle of loaves and fishes was people sharing what the brought with them to eat with the crowd, it seems most must have brought enough to share. Sort of like passing the collection plate in church. It was not like the people were going to go hungry if Jesus did not provide. They were not that silly.

Tim

[1hole]

The Dead Sea Scrolls do match some parts of the old testament but they only account for a fraction of the Bible. It would be nice of someone actually had a original letter written by one of the Apostles.

Tim

The O.T. canon was completed by about 400 BC. The common writing material at that time was usually sheep skin scraped thin and well treated to last a very long time, as the Dead Sea scrolls show.

The N.T. almost certainly was written on paper made from reeds, it wasn't very durable so many copies were made over the next several years.

We have something "better" than an old copy, we have the testimony of hundreds of years dating from when the originals still existed.

Religious Jews handled their scriptures very tightly. IF there were any meaningful errors in the passed down copies there would have been public howls of outrage about it. The total historical absence of any such conflict is all the testimony we need for us to be sure that what we have today is very close to what was first written.

[dtknowles]

The O.T. canon was completed by about 400 BC. The common writing material at that time was usually sheep skin scraped thin and well treated to last a very long time, as the Dead Sea scrolls show.

The N.T. almost certainly was written on paper made from reeds, it wasn't very durable so many copies were made over the next several years.

We have something "better" than an old copy, we have the testimony of hundreds of years dating from when the originals still existed.

Religious Jews handled their scriptures very tightly. IF there were any meaningful errors in the passed down copies there would have been public howls of outrage about it. The total historical absence of any such conflict is all the testimony we need for us to be sure that what we have today is very close to what was first written.

I don't disagree with that. The Jewish scripture is not the same as the OT, right? I have not read the Torah, I guess I should.

It is clear that the Christian Church was not as scrupulous as the Jewish Church. That said, I think that the NT is probably pretty close to what was originally written just the providence is kind of weak.

Tim

[Blackwater]

The Dead Sea Scrolls do match some parts of the old testament but they only account for a fraction of the Bible. It would be nice of someone actually had a original letter written by one of the Apostles.

Tim

DT, yes, but if all that we've found matches nearly perfectly, why would we rationally question the rest? And yes, it would be nice if we had that original letter, but what we have is fully sufficient for our needs. Christ was intended to fulfill all our needs, but not necessarily all our wants. Is not that the way a good Father deals with his children?

[Blackwater]

I am pretty comfortable with the idea that David wrote the psalms.

I believe that Revelations is an allegory of a spiritual path an ongoing struggle between good and evil.

I think Genesis is a bunch of parables.

The miracle of loaves and fishes was people sharing what the brought with them to eat with the crowd, it seems most must have brought enough to share. Sort of like passing the collection plate in church. It was not like the people were going to go hungry if Jesus did not provide. They were not that silly.

Tim

If you believe the miracle of the loaves, then what is it that prevents you from believing the rest? Is not a real and all powerful God capable of doing all the things that the Bible describes? Why then the disbelief??? It doesn't make sense to me.

Faith is a whole thing, and parsing it out piecemeal doesn't seem to me to be real Faith. Only inquisition and partial belief. Christ really IS capable of all He said He was capable of, and if that's true, why couldn't Genesis be true as well, even if it's the greatly condensed version? We often think of God materializing as Christ materialized, and building our world with "bricks and mortar," or His equivalent of that. But why couldn't He sit up in Heaven and make it all happen just as He describes??? What would limit an all powerful and benevolent God??????? He's limitless, except that He cannot abide sin or sinners in His Kingdom. Then, it wouldn't be Heaven any more, and He is fiercely protective of His realm, as would and should be expected.

He made us in His image. How He did this is beyond our knowing. We probably don't have the capacity to understand this fully. So be it. That's what faith, real faith, is for.

[1hole]

I don't disagree with that. The Jewish scripture is not the same as the OT, right? I have not read the Torah, I guess I should.

Torah are the books of Moses, the first five books (scrolls) of the O.T. Torah is a mix of history and the giving of God's rules for all men to live at their best, aka, to live by the Mosiac Law.

Jews hold to four groups of sacred writings; (1) the Law (Torah), (2) the major Prophets, the (3) Writings and (4) the minor prophets. They were all independently written over something like 2-3 thousand years and they were by no means the only writings inspired and used by God during that period. WE need to understand it has been an act of God that the books he wanted us to have have been protected for us to know him and live as we should - for our own good, not as an over-bearing tyrant.

It is clear that the Christian Church was not as scrupulous as the Jewish Church.

There is only one Church. The Church is the mystic body and Bride of Christ, consisting ONLY of (spiritually) "born again" believers who trust (faith) their lives in the Lord Jesus.

Why so many Bible versions and corruptions? There is no copyright on the Holy Scriptures so a very few strange men have indeed corrupted the written word to make it better match the satanic teachings of their founders and leaders (LDS, JW, 7th Day, etc).

That said, Peter and Paul didn't carry a KJV around so there are quite a few mainstream translation versions that faithfully supply us the true meanings of scripture in ways we can better understand.

That said, I think that the NT is probably pretty close to what was originally written just the providence is kind of weak.

I think that too and the providence is better than you may think, Remember, the early Church was almost all religious Jews and they seem to have taken better care to preserve original texts more accurately than modern Bible antagonists want to believe.

Much of the N.T. was written within the living memory of many Christians and copies were made by many of the same people as the O.T. Thus, we can be sure if there were any meaningful variations in copies those who knew what was first written would have have been outraged and corruptions would be burned. Thus, any copier or group of copiers seeking to "change" scripture would have found it to be much more difficult to get away with than many today believe.

[T_McD]

The last few posts have illustrated the practical issues I have with the claim that Scripture is of divine origin.

[dtknowles]

DT, yes, but if all that we've found matches nearly perfectly, why would we rationally question the rest? And yes, it would be nice if we had that original letter, but what we have is fully sufficient for our needs. Christ was intended to fulfill all our needs, but not necessarily all our wants. Is not that the way a good Father deals with his children?

God has not even come close to fulfilling everyone's needs. Christ does not even fulfill the needs of all followers. If you think they do, you are not paying attention. Many have been martyred for Christ, many even in the last year.

If you believe "the Lord is our shepherd and thou shalt not want" I guess you can be a happy starving sheep being led to slaughter.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Torah are the books of Moses, the first five books (scrolls) of the O.T. Torah is a mix of history and the giving of God's rules for all men to live at their best, aka, to live by the Mosiac Law.

Jews hold to four groups of sacred writings; (1) the Law (Torah), (2) the major Prophets, the (3) Writings and (4) the minor prophets. They were all independently written over something like 2-3 thousand years and they were by no means the only writings inspired and used by God during that period. WE need to understand it has been an act of God that the books he wanted us to have have been protected for us to know him and live as we should - for our own good, not as an over-bearing tyrant.



There is only one Church. The Church is the mystic body and Bride of Christ, consisting ONLY of (spiritually) "born again" believers who trust (faith) their lives in the Lord Jesus.

Why so many Bible versions and corruptions? There is no copyright on the Holy Scriptures so a very few strange men have indeed corrupted the written word to make it better match the satanic teachings of their founders and leaders (LDS, JW, 7th Day, etc).

That said, Peter and Paul didn't carry a KJV around so there are quite a few mainstream translation versions that faithfully supply us the true meanings of scripture in ways we can better understand.



I think that too and the providence is better than you may think, Remember, the early Church was almost all religious Jews and they seem to have taken better care to preserve original texts more accurately than modern Bible antagonists want to believe.

Much of the N.T. was written within the living memory of many Christians and copies were made by many of the same people as the O.T. Thus, we can be sure if there were any meaningful variations in copies those who knew what was first written would have have been outraged and corruptions would be burned. Thus, any copier or group of copiers seeking to "change" scripture would have found it to be much more difficult to get away with than many today believe.

There are many books and many churches but only one God. He did leave us many books but some are from false prophets and offer false doctrine, the trick is figuring out which to believe and how to interpret them.

Tim

[dtknowles]

If you believe the miracle of the loaves, then what is it that prevents you from believing the rest? Is not a real and all powerful God capable of doing all the things that the Bible describes? Why then the disbelief??? …….

I believe the loaves and fishes story and I explained how I don't think it was a miracle. God who created the Universe could cause everything in the Bible but I don't believe he did. I think it was made up by a bunch of self-serving radical anti-establishment Jews. Led by the Apostilles, his Mom and close friends. Today we would call them Terrorists. The mistake they made was making him a martyr.

Tim

[T_McD]

I believe the loaves and fishes story and I explained how I don't think it was a miracle. God who created the Universe could cause everything in the Bible but I don't believe he did. I think it was made up by a bunch of self-serving radical anti-establishment Jews. Led by the Apostilles, his Mom and close friends. Today we would call them Terrorists. The mistake they made was making him a martyr.

Tim

Interesting take. What is your opinion of the origin of the Jewish faith itself?

[Blackwater]

God has not even come close to fulfilling everyone's needs. Christ does not even fulfill the needs of all followers. If you think they do, you are not paying attention. Many have been martyred for Christ, many even in the last year.

If you believe "the Lord is our shepherd and thou shalt not want" I guess you can be a happy starving sheep being led to slaughter.

Tim

If your view of God is that He's there to supply us with all that we want, then it's no wonder you believe as you do. But He gave us a world full of abundance, that we might enjoy and utilize it and build something good. But He most emphatically is NOT a big "sugar daddy in the sky" who gives us what we want. He's a father, and like a good father, sometimes He lets us have the inevitable results of our foolishness, as in war, death, disease, etc. But that doesn't make Him one whit less than the God He claims to be! Doesn't this make a lot more sense than believing He's some sort of "sugar daddy" who's supposed to give us what we want, and protect us from some of the choices we make????

What they NEED, and what they WANT, are two very separate and opposite things! Let's not get the two confused, please.

[Blackwater]

The last few posts have illustrated the practical issues I have with the claim that Scripture is of divine origin.

Are you of the opinion that if it was of a divine origin, that it'd reach out and grab us, and MAKE us understand? Is that the way your mother raised you? God gave us the scriptures so that anyone with a humble heart and an open mind could know His will for us, and His will is all good. It's only AFTER we die, that He has the unpleasant duty to separate the believers out, and relegate the rest to the only other dominion extant, and that's Hell, where they'll reside forever with the Evil One, and "Father of all lies."

It's up to each of us to choose, and whether or not to really seek the Truth. That's all there really is to it.

[T_McD]

Are you of the opinion that if it was of a divine origin, that it'd reach out and grab us, and MAKE us understand? Is that the way your mother raised you? God gave us the scriptures so that anyone with a humble heart and an open mind could know His will for us, and His will is all good. It's only AFTER we die, that He has the unpleasant duty to separate the believers out, and relegate the rest to the only other dominion extant, and that's Hell, where they'll reside forever with the Evil One, and "Father of all lies."

It's up to each of us to choose, and whether or not to really seek the Truth. That's all there really is to it.

If it was divine in origin, why is it written by man’s hand?

[popper]

Actually, some of the O.T. scribes made foot notes, that had to be 'realized' to get real meaning. Cannot believe in 6-24hr days of Creation in Genesis. Too much of that does not add up. Just got back from Ark and Creation Museum. Don't agree with everything said but it is an interesting hypothesis. I wasn't there when the earth was created so can't say for sure. I know that God could make the universe in 6 24hr days or by the snap of his finger, if he had/has one. As to the 'old' vs 'new' argument, not enough info in either for a conclusion. One argument (big bang) has the speed of light problem, Bible has the 'flood' water of

Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

- problem, 60' covered the hills? But wait for it - maybe the earth surface was pretty 'flat'? Ark was 30 cubit tall.
Anyway, Bible is the story of God's selected people (Israelites and Christians), not the earth's history. Therefore, lots of time and events LEFT OUT!

[dverna]

Don, there is some truth in what you say, but in most of it, you describe the problems of humanity, and not of Christ or of religion itself. Many who believe have great difficulty in following Christ's directions and advice. But they believe, and if they're truly trying, and just combating a bit of a too haughty spirit within themselves, they they are still Christians, but just very poor examples of real Christianity. And yes, it is indeed sad that so many cannot really describe or relate to a non-believer all the reasons they believe. But sadly, that's the state of far too many modern believers. We all have jobs and family and often, pastimes, that limit our time to spend studying. But when the weekends come, when we DO have some time, we often spend that time doing something else. Is it any wonder then, that so many sputter, stutter and go " ....mmmm" when they're asked WHY they believe? Of course not. The problems are all within the PEOPLE, and not with religion, or with Christ. It's with our ignorance, which we do far too little to cure. So that should never turn anyone away from a search for the real and unfailing Christ.

Instead, why not look at the best among us, rather than the dregs???? I know you've recently come to belief. What was that experience like for you? Was it as if some sort of other-dimensional portal was opened, and you at once KNEW that it was Christ standing before you, reaching out His holy hand, and inviting you to partake of His forgiveness, His grace, and His mercy? That's a real "conversion experience," and I use that word "knew" in the full and complete meaning of the word. One CAN know things by means beyond what our temporal world commonly realizes. Those who've never had such an experience cannot possibly relate to it. Only those who've had it can really understand what I speak of here. But it's very real, and it's not limited to anyone. It's available to all who truly seek, and who do it with a humble and sincere spirit. Only then is it possible for the Lord to speak to people, and truly become very, very real to them. Again, those who've not had such an experience cannot possibly relate. But for them to say it can't and never did happen is ridiculous on the face of it. You can't know something you're not seeking, and are actually averse to even thinking or talking about. This is why some non-believers dismiss such things out of hand. They think they have seen all, and know all, and that nothing is possible beyond their meager human experience. Silly of them, I know, but they do it. We seem to have, as humans, a capacity and taste for the ridiculous far too often. God speed to all here.

Dennis,
For me it happened in the middle of the night. I did not feel the presence of God/Jesus. I had not been able to sleep and my mind was working overtime.

I could not dismiss the fact that Jesus was on the earth and performed miracles. Of that I am certain, or He would not have attracted so many people or the anger of the priests in positions of power that He threatened. I concluded there must be some truth to the reports in the Bible of what Jesus was and what He did. And even if only a few of the stories are 100% accurate, that was enough to prove Jesus for me. It flowed from logic and not faith.

Once I accepted that Jesus was real, it took very little faith to see Him as the Son of God. Aliens would not send one of their own to die for no reason. And although an alien race might be able to resurrect the dead, what would be the point of it? So, it followed that God had good reasons to allow His son to be crucified...to save the souls of the screw-ups He had created.

The Bible tells us of God's patience with man. How many chances were given to the Israelites and all failed. Man could not follow the 613 laws. We could not follow 10 simple commandments. If we believe Genesis, Adam and Eve could not even obey one rule. It is interesting that God knew we could not follow one rule and then gave us 10 and then 613...He needed us to realize how flawed we are. We proved to God that we were hopeless children. He had created a mess. (Which reinforces my belief God does not make perfect decisions)

He tried starting over with the Flood but that did not work. God was left with two choices.....eliminate us all and start with a new race, or sacrifice His son so we could not only find salvation but prove that He exists...for only a God could have performed the miracles of Jesus. And that brought me full circle to Jesus, his time on earth, and why He was here.

[dtknowles]

Interesting take. What is your opinion of the origin of the Jewish faith itself?

That is all about Moses. He took a faithless conquered tribe and converted them to a religion he built by force of personality then he wrote a book that codified that faith.

Tim