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Thread: The Bible.... Myth, Real, or Both?

  1. #81
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Amazing thread.. If we don't believe we are cut down by the believers and stripped of our ability to have an opinion and ridiculed because we don't possibly believe word for word. I've tried to believe but so much is so far fetched. Sure, there is something greater than us thus the creation of the universes, earth, and so forth. Why on earth would a creator need to have us worship him? This defies logic because anything this great needs nothing else. What are we? Ants walking across the sidewalk with someone holding a magnifying glass watching as we burst into a puff of smoke? Maybe we are nothing more than a constant show that runs 24/7 never ending supplying laughter to our creator. You believe in a bible that was written by man and thus can't be anything but flawed yet its held as truth.

    Religion does satisfy the psychological need to believe in something greater than ourselves. Religion keeps us in line and without it there would be nothing but chaos. Ask a former Catholic how the church uses guilt as a method of control. Sorry, for right now I still don't buy it.

  2. #82
    Boolit Buddy Snow ninja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    And as to the stories in the Bible being "outlandish," it may seem that way to you, but then, you've never really sought to find belief or faith, so it's only natural that one so disinclined to really make an earnest search, hasn't found it.

    But you do not have the authority to declare the Bible's stories "outlandish," and you'll never have that authority. But you do it anyway, which shows you to be a malcontent that would probably complain about ice cream not being good enough for you.

    Maybe it's fun disparaging Christians and their faith and beliefs.
    Ok, so a little history about me. I was raised from birth as a southern Baptist, went to church 3 times a week, heck- I even married the preachers daughter. Around 22, I started questioning myself. Was this something that I believed because I was strongly willed to do so, or just because I had never known anything else?

    With my wife being the pastors daughter, I got glimpses of the other side of the church. How these "Christians" did things and acted. I realized that maybe my problem wasn't with religion, but with the organized "church" side.

    So I went on a soul searching journey over the next several years. I talked to different pastors, read books, I even read every last page and word of the Bible to interpret it myself. I listened to Christian radio stations.

    Maybe that was my problem, someone else was always telling me how I should feel and interpret it. Most of the time, I was met with hostility, as I am here. Apparently, you're just not allowed to have a genuine difficulty with your own faith.

    Along the way, I realized that I truly did not believe in a creator. I have so many questions about things, and blind Faith is just not enough for me. Answering every question with, "We're not meant to understand" or "he works in mysterious ways" just isn't good enough.

    So I've dedicated more than a decade trying to be closer to God, just to realize that I will never truly believe.

    And yes, I will call the stories outlandish. Taken in any other context and they would be considered fiction. Do you believe the story of Mohammed and his cave Revelations? Probably not, but millions of people do, so according to you, you can't call it false because it's their faith.

    Also, leave my Klondike bars out of this.

    And no, I don't have fun disparaging Christian's, but I do believe they should be able to back up their faith with discussion. But, as I've seen numerous times in this sub forum, and in life, it is not about theological discussion. If you're not part of the cool kids group, no one wants anything to do with you. People never want to discuss anything unless you're already a believer. Then we could all just stand in a circle and pat each other on the back.

    I have no problem with you and your faith. I understand people need it. When I go to breakfast with my grandpa, we join hands and pray together. I know it's important to him, and show him that respect.

    So, yes, I have truly tried to find that higher calling, I've just realized it's not there for me.
    Last edited by Snow ninja; 08-06-2019 at 09:05 PM.
    Do the best you can, with what you've got, where you're at. -Theodore Roosevelt

  3. #83
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    Well said and heartfelt.

  4. #84
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    I spent over 26years servicing the audio and video systems in large formats and when I wasn't doing that I serviced churches. I saw a side the other side that wasn't glorious to look at or talk about. The other side was concerned ONLY with what came in on the collection plate/collection envelopes and how to increase the yeald weekly. I saw a side that wasn't concerned with people well being only the almighty dollar. I saw people in need both spiritually and physically being turned away some because they didn't make an appointment to see the paster. I saw the side that was only concerned with what they could buy for equipment and would that equipment make them better than the church down the street. It was funny top listen to different churches explain how they were better than say another church. At one time I went to a christian church with the wife, our son and his wife and my granddaughter. I enjoyed the service and felt something special. Shortly after that I was doing some work in a Baptist church and was asked what church I attended and I told the paster I was going to a christian church. He wasted no time telling me I was going to the wrong church because the christian church did a lot of singing and he could show me in the bible where that was wrong. The bible to me shows nothing but conflicting ideas. Whatever you find you can always find something different. If you choose to read interpret it and live by it then so be it but do not judge me because I don't believe it word for word yet use logic instead to dictate my path. I see no truth for example that someone lived lets say 700 years or 500 years because that is totally impossible. It is very probable that the bible does in effect contain things that aren't correct simply because MAN wrote it and man has changed it over the years sometimes to suite his needs.

    I can appreciate the faith that some have and I certainly would be the last to question it for them or cause them to doubt their faith but the same token they need to respect me and my feelings and reasoning's. Unfortunately they don't respect me for my beliefs instead I get criticized and ridiculed.

    When the wife and I put on a dinner for Christmas, Easter, or any other holiday my brother and his wife, my sisters and their husbands were always invited. My Mom would say a blessing before we would eat and we would pray with her. It respected her and my siblings to do so.

  5. #85
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    Science in the Bible - no there is not a bit.
    The Bible is not science it is a collection of tales handed down through the centuries.
    It has not one bit of scientific theory in it.
    So you expect the origin of the universe to be known by scientists? They are not there yet.
    As for gullible - sure you are if you want to believe the goat herders tales over the proven science os the last 1000 years or so. Care to argue with Kepler, Leibniz, Newton, Einstein, Faraday, Maxwell, Bohr, Euclid, Alexander Fleming, Jonas Salk and many others. These men have contributed much to change and improve the live of man. Their discoveries have withstood the test of time. Salk and Fleming cured many of disease and saved many lives with their science. Your Bible has saved not one. If you knew and mastered their works you would be far better educated than if you rely on your Bible which seems to offer nothing new in the last 2000 years.
    Because of the advances in science and the changes in life that occur over time man will eventually move on, life will change and old things that do not contribute will be left behind. Science will never be left behind because scientists know that, unlike believers, they do not have all the answers. So scientists keep looking for the answers and as they find them they become widely accepted and proven science. Your Bible is static, it just has the same old unchanging story that cannot change as science makes new discoveries.
    While most of the world's population does not adhere to the Bible all men are governed by the laws of science and physics even if they know nothing about them. Those that seek to create and build and change the world are much more effective when they have studied and know science. How could you read this without chemists, materials scientists or physicists developing the materials, processes and theories for the engineers and designers that create our world. Would you rather be herding goats and staring at the stars looking for your boogeyman? That is where you would be without science.



    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Galileo was an Italian scientist but the Roman church was NOT open to his findings. In fact the Church forced him to publicly recant his findings or be burned at the stake! He was a Roman Catholic by default, not choice. He lived in the late 1,500s when the Reformation was young and still virtually powerless. No other churches were tolerated in Italy at the time and it remains much the same today, minus the penalty of death.

    I suppose we all have reconciled science and our faith to some degree. I mean we live peacefully in the same neighborhoods with everyone and, unlike Islam, no one in the Christian world beats or beheads those who hold different beliefs.

    It's certainly possible but it seems unlikely.

    Scientists claim to have detected a tiny echo of the supposed Big Bang .... but the "echo" they found is supposed to be a super small temperature difference from fantastically far away!

    In order for the Big Bang to be true the measured rate of expansion of the universe would have to be slowing; it isn't, it's actually accelerating. So, the Big Bang theory blows itself up!

    Thing is, science doesn't lie but scientists wanting more research money do. Follow the money, scientists aren't above manipulating data to support what they desperately want to be true (see: "man made global warming"). I simply don't believe science has tools that can resolve such a small temperature difference as they claim to have detected from so far away and so long ago; I'm gullible but I'm not THAT gullible!

    Maybe. But I sure don't think so.

    I used to believe that but I finally had to reject "guided evolution" because it raises more knotty questions in my mind than it answers. I just can't swallow a camel while straining a gnat

    The Bible isn't a science book BUT there is a lot of science in it.

    Surely all of us believe in science when it's real science. But science books of beginnings require much more faith in scientist's dreams than they deserve. Real science requires theories that can be tested and duplicated to be proven science and that simply cannot be done for beginnings.

    In real science, wild-*** guesses don't count. Thus, those scientists who voice emphatic certainties of beginnings immediately reduce their lofty arguments to asking us for blind "religious" faith in themselves because they lack the necessary hard evidence for it to be science.
    Last edited by EDG; 08-07-2019 at 03:56 PM.
    EDG

  6. #86
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    The Bible, both Old and New Testaments were written by Godly men, for a Godly purpose. In order to understand, it require knowledge of when it was written, to whom it was written, what was the purpose/intent of the writing and who wrote it. It certainly is not myth, legend, or written for a nefarious purpose.

    Addendum: I chose my words with great care, in the above post. Churches vary greatly in their doctrine of the Bible, it's inspiration and it's value in personal faith. What I say can fit into anybody's doctrine, so I will just leave it at that and not quibble over words. Over and out!
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  7. #87
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    Every Word in the KJB is true to me.

  8. #88
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    You do not know any such thing. That is only your desired line of propaganda based on what is your opinion. Your opinion is likely to have come from your parents as a hand me down faith that never originated in logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    The Bible, both Old and New Testaments were written by Godly men, for a Godly purpose. In order to understand, it require knowledge of when it was written, to whom it was written, what was the purpose/intent of the writing and who wrote it. It certainly is not myth, legend, or written for a nefarious purpose.

    Addendum: I chose my words with great care, in the above post. Churches vary greatly in their doctrine of the Bible, it's inspiration and it's value in personal faith. What I say can fit into anybody's doctrine, so I will just leave it at that and not quibble over words. Over and out!
    EDG

  9. #89
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    It is doubtful you know much of anything about your own ancestors only 6 generations back.
    You want us to believe that the Bible has been handed down through various interpretations by HUMANS to more humans to more humans with unknown agendas for nearly 2000 years without a single error? That is not possibly true except in some fantasy.


    Quote Originally Posted by dannyd View Post
    Every Word in the KJB is true to me.
    EDG

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    It is doubtful you know much of anything about your own ancestors only 6 generations back.
    You want us to believe that the Bible has been handed down through various interpretations by HUMANS to more humans to more humans with unknown agendas for nearly 2000 years without a single error? That is not possibly true except in some fantasy.
    Lets put this in perspective, I said I believe I don't care if you believe. God made the KJB not man.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    It is doubtful you know much of anything about your own ancestors only 6 generations back.
    You want us to believe that the Bible has been handed down through various interpretations by HUMANS to more humans to more humans with unknown agendas for nearly 2000 years without a single error? That is not possibly true except in some fantasy.
    While I agree with your logic, the tenets of scripture are still useful as a moral guide. Belief or unbelief in the supernatural is secondary to moral character.

  12. #92
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    "Religious people often think of faith as confidence based on a perceived degree of warrant, while others who are more skeptical of religion tend to think of faith as simply belief without evidence." Not my words but I think appropriate.

    If we were able to prove God exists, faith would not be needed, but the various "proofs" I have read are convoluted and next to useless for a non-believer.

    Neither is it possible to prove God does not exist. There are good arguments that we cannot understand why terrible things to people who seem innocent if there is a loving all powerful God, but they still do not prove there is no God. Talk to a couple who have lost a new-born and most will have little use for God unless they have years of faith to depend on. For unbelievers, it "proves" God is not what He is made out to be.

    Faith is difficult. But without faith, we will not be able to accept God.

    Regrettably organized religion can be an impediment to non-believers seeking God. It happens when man gets involved with almost anything. Pettiness, jealousy, pride, greed, ignorance etc, are evident in many churches. For non- believers looking for answers, do not let the shenanigans of churches dissuade you. Most do good things but they are not perfect. A good church and pastor will make you think and read the Bible. As to the Bible, I do not believe every word to be the Word of God, but there is much to be learned from studying it.

    I am reminded of the saying, "A leap of faith". Yes, that will be required, and in time it happens if you keep an open mind.

    BTW, some of most closed minded people you will meet will be those who have believed in God and attended church since they were children. They are unable to fathom how anyone cannot believe in God, or accept the inerrancy of the Bible. In my experience, most are good people but not critical thinkers. They have strong faith and do not want it challenged.
    Don Verna

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  13. #93
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    The most amazing thing I find is when the Hospice Nurse calls a persons name how fast they pickup a Bible and try to find Jesus.

  14. #94
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    Certainly I have the authority to declare the tales in the Bible as outlandish. s
    It was easy and I just did it. I can do it again tomorrow. There are several billion people on the earth that do not recognize your argument. So yes stick with the facts. You have zero authority to declare what anyone else should think. I will readily admit that it is amusing to see the illogical and irrational arguments offered by believers when all you have to lean on is an old book of dubious origin and your imaginations. I still think many or most believers are into Christianity simply because of a very subconscious fear of death. The promise of everlasting life is a nice insurance policy for the selfish person to get a good deal on a comfortable eternity....

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    Yes indeed, since his rising from the primordial ooze, man has indeed looked up at the night sky in awe and wonder, and somehow, something within him KNEW that there was a real and supremely powerful God in those heavens. But it was MUCH more than just "a need to explain things" that drew those old humans toward belief in God. Glossing over all the things that man is capable of, and stating man found belief only in an effort to "explain things," is a mere carricature of mankind, and an obvious omitting of all the things that make us human. Let's stick to the facts if we're to discuss this very important and crucial issue, OK?

    And as to the stories in the Bible being "outlandish," it may seem that way to you, but then, you've never really sought to find belief or faith, so it's only natural that one so disinclined to really make an earnest search, hasn't found it. But you do not have the authority to declare the Bible's stories "outlandish," and you'll never have that authority. But you do it anyway, which shows you to be a malcontent that would probably complain about ice cream not being good enough for you. So be it if that's what you choose. You have the right to choose anything you want to. But you'll NEVER have the right to declare anything regarding faith as being anything but what it simply is. Maybe it's fun disparaging Christians and their faith and beliefs. I can't see it. I believe it's a fool's errand, but obviously, you disagree. Again, so be it. God gave you the right to accept or deny Him, and no man here or anywhere has the right to make your decisions for you. But remember, you also have the responsibility to get it right, because we only have one life in this world, and afterward, the judgment or whatever you wish to imagine comes next. God be with you my friend. You need Him more than you can presently know.
    EDG

  15. #95
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    EDG,

    Since becoming a believer I have less fear of death. If death is the last stop on my journey, then so be it. But as a believer, death is only another step. My body will rot and decay as any dead body, but my soul will carry on. Whether that means spending eternity in a hot uncomfortable place or a better place...I do not know.

    At least, I have a chance I did not have before.

    I was much like you...so keep an open mind.
    Don Verna

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  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    EDG,

    Since becoming a believer I have less fear of death. If death is the last stop on my journey, then so be it. But as a believer, death is only another step. My body will rot and decay as any dead body, but my soul will carry on. Whether that means spending eternity in a hot uncomfortable place or a better place...I do not know.

    At least, I have a chance I did not have before.

    I was much like you...so keep an open mind.

    I imagine this is a very individual thing and varies from person to person.
    I am not a firm believer, and I do not fear death at all. At least I do not fear what comes after death.

    Even to me death is merely another step.
    The atoms in my body were in other living things before me, and will be in others after I'm finished with them.
    I love the idea that my body will rot and decay and return to the earth. That doesn't bother me at all.
    It's nature's way and it's a good way.
    Life is a series of bullseyes and backstraps - Ted Nugent

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    EDG,

    Since becoming a believer I have less fear of death. If death is the last stop on my journey, then so be it. But as a believer, death is only another step. My body will rot and decay as any dead body, but my soul will carry on. Whether that means spending eternity in a hot uncomfortable place or a better place...I do not know.

    At least, I have a chance I did not have before.

    I was much like you...so keep an open mind.
    If you have an open mind, consider the idea that you don't have to believe in eternal life to be granted eternal life. Maybe if you are good, you will be granted eternal life even if you did not believe in eternal life.

    Tim
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    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  18. #98
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    Maybe God is a trickster and those who expect to go to heaven are reincarnated and those who expect to be reincarnated will be retired to heaven.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    Maybe God is a trickster and those who expect to go to heaven are reincarnated and those who expect to be reincarnated will be retired to heaven.

    Tim
    Well, look at that!
    Something that you hardly see mentioned in this forum.....reincarnation.

    Although that word is not in the Bible, the concept of it is sprinkled throughout the Bible.
    For example, John the Baptist was actually the reincarnated Elijah.
    Jesus said that was the case in the Bible.

    However, we are all accountable for what we do.
    It is the law of Cause and Effect, better known as Karma.
    "Live by the sword, die buy the sword"
    "You reap what you sow"

    The idea is that when we physically die, our good and bad karma is evaluated (judged?).
    If you were a thief, murderer, bad person, etc. when you die, we need to be accountable for those actions.
    Also, if you died with unfulfilled desires, such as wanting to be a billionaire, wanted that new Corvette, etc. you bring that baggage with you after you die.

    There isn't a heaven or hell only situation.
    In fact, there is no eternal hell that souls are sent to.
    "...be ye perfect...."

    We reincarnate into a life that will give us an opportunity to account for, or negate, that bad karma that you accumulated along the way in your previous life(s).

    Ultimately the slate is clean and we can move on in the Spiritual Realms and eventually be back "home" with God.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snow ninja View Post
    1. And no, I don't have fun disparaging Christian's, but I do believe they should be able to back up their faith with discussion.
    2. But, as I've seen numerous times in this sub forum, and in life, it is not about theological discussion.
    3 People never want to discuss anything unless you're already a believer.
    4, Then we could all just stand in a circle and pat each other on the back.
    1. Wow! You are absolutely right here! We indeed SHOULD be able to explain to non-believers what it is that has led us to believe. But indeed, many can't do this simple thing. But having read the Bible, and obviously having a large dose of forgiveness and understanding within you, you simply need to realize that many people have become afraid to draw conclusions on their own, and once they get to that point, they generally let the preacher or their Sunday School teachers (if they're well read and solidly soaked in the Word) do their thinking for them, and tell them what to think. It's really no different than in politics, where many have decided to believe one party over the other, isn't it? And I'm sure you understand that. Just apply the same to us believers. And know that we don't simply "choose" to believe. We all have very definite and concrete reasons to believe. If that moment has simply never hit you yet, keep looking for it, and do not turn away in faithless disappointment. Christ is there for you, but you have to open your heart and mind, and listen with a keen ear, because He always speaks in whispers. He's not like Satan, who shouts, and screams and seductively lures us. The search for Christ is amazingly easy, once you've found it. And you realize the problem all along wasn't Him, but you who were seeking in all the wrong ways. I speak here as a veteran of having searched the wrong ways for a very long time, so I'm like one alcoholic speaking to another. I know whereof you speak. And never fear. Christ is and will always be right there for you, especially when you most need Him. One day, it will feel like a window in the great Veil has opened, and you can see and feel Him calling to you to simply reach out, and take His hand, and partake of His wonderful forgiveness, mercy and grace. It will be a moment you'll never forget.

    2. You're right here, too. It's not generally about theology. That's now relegated to the "Deep Theological" section of the board. But I seem to discern (?) that you haven't found any real satisfaction in theology in your readings and discussions on your own. If so, please realize that many of us haven't found Christ that way, either. We only began to understand theology AFTER we had that "conversion experience," when that magic portal opens and you at once "get" who Christ really is, and what He wants for you. So don't give up your search. It's far from being over. And by the way, those who come to Christ later in life seem to be uniquely gifted once they do. So it's always worth seeking Him. And you can never anticipate when or where or under what circumstances you'll finally meet Him. And then, you'll understand just how wise you were to keep searching. He's not that hard to find, if only we give up our temporal egos, and humble ourselves before Him. He cannot talk through a haughty or prideful spirit, and I'm not talking about the outlandish sort of thing, but the quieter sort that is so easy to allow to creep into our minds and hearts. Think of the most holy acting and behaving people you've ever met? Were they not singularly humble? Self assured when speaking of their Lord, yes, but still with a very humble spirit regarding themselves. Think of them when you think of "Christians," for they are fully mature in His spirit. Most of us labor at jobs and family, and maybe our pastimes, and have little time to study the scriptures and grow in His light. But we never doubt the experience we had however long ago it's been for us. We know the basics, and that's all it really takes to get to Heaven one day. All we need to do is simply do our best, and keep the faith.

    3. You're right here, too. There ARE those types. Mostly, they're just afraid to listen to anyone else's ideas our countering speeches because they know their own personal convictions are weak and delicate. They have yet to really examine and test their faith, as likely as not. They're inexperienced in evangelizing, and they show it. Again, don't let such a minor and obvious situation set you back in your search. Focus on the more mature Christians - the ones who speak in soft voices, normally, and who reason with you instead of trying to "hit you on the head with the Bible" by repeatedly reciting a few verses. Seek from those who know, and you will find. Seek from those who don't really know, and haven't yet proved their faith many times over, and you'll never come to belief. It's really all in who you seek from.

    4. Nope. This is wrong, and you already knew that when you wrote it. Once we know our Creator and Savior, the Holy Spirit dwells within us, and as we learn, it grows ever stronger, and more all encompassing. And real Christians NEVER have a "feel good party." They are in a battle, and only re-group so they can continue the battle, and work more efficiently and effectively. Remember, the church is a social organization as well as a religious one. Please don't get the social part mixed up with the religious part. And also, don't expect a whole church full of people to ALL be fully mature. We're just forgiven sinners, trying to learn more and do better.

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