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Thread: The Bible.... Myth, Real, or Both?

  1. #61
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    Come to The Chapel that unbelievers disdain
    A place for Christians to fellowship and not be like Cain
    The unbelievers drop by and spit on the Saints
    They even deny that God really exists
    They tell us the Bible is all just a lie
    They tell us that Jesus never rose and is alive
    But quote the Bible, after all it's just a "myth"
    And their heads explode as if it were no myth
    The irony is thick as they say the Bible false
    But quote the Bible and then they cry like a (female dog)
    Now that is rich
    Their panties get twisted, their knickers do knot
    They disrespect everything Holy and Sacred, and why not?
    If God, The Son, and the Holy Ghost do not exist
    Why not feign that verbatim quotes from the Bible should cease and desist
    So the self-righteous deniers who do not believe are now the victims
    And sorely aggrieved

  2. #62
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    Come to The Chapel that unbelievers disdain
    I don't disdain the chapel. I enjoy civil conversations about this topic.
    I am only in this thread because its purpose was to get different opinions on whether the Bible is true.
    I usually steer clear because I know that dissenting opinions are not generally welcome by a few people.

    The unbelievers drop by and spit on the Saints
    I spit on no one.
    I have said a couple of times in this thread that the vast majority of religious people I know are wonderful people.
    Don't confuse disagreement with persecution.
    I try, and admittedly sometimes fail, to attack ideas and not people. If you perceive an attack on you personally, I certainly have not intended that and apologize for it coming across that way.
    I do not apologize for attacking ideas. Ideas are not immune to questions and even ridicule.
    If your faith can move mountains, it should be able to withstand a little criticism.


    They even deny that God really exists
    I don't deny it.
    But I certainly question it.

    And their heads explode as if it were no myth
    Their panties get twisted, their knickers do knot
    My head is perfectly intact and my knickers are non-knotted.
    I have not gotten angry or even irritated (okay, being compared to swine irritated me a little, but I'm a big boy, I can handle it).
    You are the only one in this entire thread who has shown any animosity at all. You are posting on a thread that invited we swine into the conversation, and you're mad I guess because the thread exists at all. You are the only one angry here.

    Why not feign that verbatim quotes from the Bible should cease and desist
    I didn't say they shouldn't exist. I even thanked you for saying exactly what you thought.
    And I meant it.

    But quote the Bible and then they cry like a (female dog)
    I don't think that one is verbatim from the Bible. I'm pretty sure you came up with that one on your own.
    Thanks, brother. That's super Christian of you.

    So the self-righteous deniers who do not believe are now the victims
    I'm not a victim. Never claimed to be one.
    I think that disagreement is good if done respectfully to one another. I do not feel victimized because you and I disagree. It seems as though you do.

    Good luck with this hot mess. Last time I ever engage outside what this sub-forum should be discussing.
    I guess it wasn't the last time after all.
    Last edited by Arkansas Paul; 07-18-2019 at 12:18 PM.
    Life is a series of bullseyes and backstraps - Ted Nugent

  3. #63
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    Come to The Chapel that unbelievers disdain
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    One more quick question if you care to answer.
    Is this your philosophy at your church that you attend?
    Or just here in this forum?

    I sincerely hope it is not your philosophy at your church. That would kind of defeat the purpose.
    Life is a series of bullseyes and backstraps - Ted Nugent

  4. #64
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    Couple of thoughts:

    1) All religions are faith based. Faith to me is belief in spite of insufficient evidence. It is a misguided enterprise to conflate faith with facts.

    2) these threads are a great example of why their are so many religions and so many sunsets of each. People gravitate towards what suits them.

    3) People don’t truly believe in believe in an Almighty God with a day of Judgement. If they did, they would toe the line and behave. Much like I obeyed my Parents because I truly believed they controlled my life (they did for a while).

    4) religion serves as a useful philosophical tool. It is not suitable for everyday decision making.

  5. #65
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    The following is a reply to a note I received from a member here with good intentions... I thought I’d add it here because it belongs in the conversation, from my point of view...

    “I started the thread to give everyone a chance to express their views openly and honestly, hoping it could be done with civility so that participants might consider “why” others might think the way they do.
    I think misunderstandings often cloud the narrow-minded views of many, where my view of practicing Christianity dictates patience, consideration, a willingness to offer testimony (including explanations of why we hold those beliefs), and a willingness to encourage open discussions so that we might better understand those that have different opinions.
    For instance, I see no issue whether you think Genesis is historical fact or parable... Jesus often used parable to teach, so why would God not use parable to teach in the Old Testament?... Both uses would be considered the word of God, right?

    My views might be viewed as wrong initially, but it’s possible that with patient consideration a person might not see them so outlandish, and certainly not disrespectful.

    If we do not welcome those that have questions, those that have doubts, to openly discuss them we preach only to the limited population we CHOOSE to acknowledge as intelligent creatures God created with free will... That is not my interpretation of Christian practice.

    I wish you well, and hope that maybe I make a little sense to you. I’ve not found my opinions by accident, and they might not be right, but encouraging the discussion seems to me to be the way to reach across what is often unnecessary hurdles to polite conversation.

    “Wherever two, or more...”, right?”

  6. #66
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    ^^^ That is a wonderful way to look at it.

    Even though we may not agree on several things, there is nothing wrong with respectful discussion.

    Remember Jefferson's words:
    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend.

    Even internet friends I will never meet in person.
    Life is a series of bullseyes and backstraps - Ted Nugent

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkansas Paul View Post
    ^^^ That is a wonderful way to look at it.

    Even though we may not agree on several things, there is nothing wrong with respectful discussion.

    Remember Jefferson's words:
    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend.

    Even internet friends I will never meet in person.
    Hear, hear.

  8. #68
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    Ive thought that if it is all real why would it be a test of inclusion and not exclusion, setting up all these cults where you have to swear loyalty and believe a list of things based on faith sounds like work of the devil. And its supposed to be your job as a rational adult to not fall for it and follow logic and evidence and most importantly update your model when its wrong.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkansas Paul View Post
    I have a question for you, and other believers as well, and I think it is in the spirit of this thread.

    The Catholic church is a little more open minded to science than many other denominations, in fact it was a Catholic priest, Georges Lemaître, who was one of the first to theorize that the Universe was expanding (giving rise to the big bang theory), a prediction that was confirmed by the Hubble telescope.
    Galileo was an Italian scientist but the Roman church was NOT open to his findings. In fact the Church forced him to publicly recant his findings or be burned at the stake! He was a Roman Catholic by default, not choice. He lived in the late 1,500s when the Reformation was young and still virtually powerless. No other churches were tolerated in Italy at the time and it remains much the same today, minus the penalty of death.

    My point is that a lot of people can reconcile religion and science. If indeed the Genesis account of creation is accurate, which I know most here believe to be true, and God spoke the universe into existence, then something came from nothing, in this case from God's spoken word.
    I suppose we all have reconciled science and our faith to some degree. I mean we live peacefully in the same neighborhoods with everyone and, unlike Islam, no one in the Christian world beats or beheads those who hold different beliefs.

    If God spoke and all of the matter in the universe appeared where none was before, is it possible that the event did in fact mimic a big bang?
    It's certainly possible but it seems unlikely.

    Scientists claim to have detected a tiny echo of the supposed Big Bang .... but the "echo" they found is supposed to be a super small temperature difference from fantastically far away!

    In order for the Big Bang to be true the measured rate of expansion of the universe would have to be slowing; it isn't, it's actually accelerating. So, the Big Bang theory blows itself up!

    Thing is, science doesn't lie but scientists wanting more research money do. Follow the money, scientists aren't above manipulating data to support what they desperately want to be true (see: "man made global warming"). I simply don't believe science has tools that can resolve such a small temperature difference as they claim to have detected from so far away and so long ago; I'm gullible but I'm not THAT gullible!

    Could the aftermath that we can observe via modern telescopes look like that?
    Maybe. But I sure don't think so.

    A lot of people believe in intelligent design, meaning they believe in science, they just believe that is the way God did it.
    I used to believe that but I finally had to reject "guided evolution" because it raises more knotty questions in my mind than it answers. I just can't swallow a camel while straining a gnat

    Galileo ... was a believer in Christ and salvation through him, he just didn't view the Bible as a science textbook.

    So, can you reconcile the two? Or do you all view it as believing one or the other?
    The Bible isn't a science book BUT there is a lot of science in it.

    Surely all of us believe in science when it's real science. But science books of beginnings require much more faith in scientist's dreams than they deserve. Real science requires theories that can be tested and duplicated to be proven science and that simply cannot be done for beginnings.

    In real science, wild-*** guesses don't count. Thus, those scientists who voice emphatic certainties of beginnings immediately reduce their lofty arguments to asking us for blind "religious" faith in themselves because they lack the necessary hard evidence for it to be science.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post

    Surely all of us believe in science when it's real science. But science books of beginnings require much more faith in scientist's dreams than they deserve. Real science requires theories that can be tested and duplicated to be proven science and that simply cannot be done for beginnings.

    In real science, wild-*** guesses don't count. Thus, those scientists who voice emphatic certainties of beginnings immediately reduce their lofty arguments to asking us for blind "religious" faith in themselves because they lack the necessary hard evidence for it to be science.
    My sentiments exactly. I often wonder why more people cannot seem to accept an “Who knows?” answer to the origin of life. I taught high school biology and the topic was always a popular one, but the honest truth is we just don’t know how life started (so that’s what I told them).

    If we knew for certain, then we would simply shift our pondering to how whatever made us was created. In the search to know the unknowable, the answer always creates more questions.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by T_McD View Post
    My sentiments exactly. I often wonder why more people cannot seem to accept an “Who knows?” answer to the origin of life. I taught high school biology and the topic was always a popular one, but the honest truth is we just don’t know how life started (so that’s what I told them).

    If we knew for certain, then we would simply shift our pondering to how whatever made us was created. In the search to know the unknowable, the answer always creates more questions.
    My money is on "God knows."

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by cainttype View Post
    Myth, real, or both?.... If both, where do YOU draw that line?
    I’m always curious about people with a list of quotes to support their opinions on what it all means, but immediately resort to “that’s not real, but was written as a sort of example”, or “That’s just a story” when confronted with Biblical texts that are contrary to the point they are trying to make.

    So if it’s part “myth” and part actual testimony, where do YOU draw the line?
    Is Genesis just a story, or Exodus?... Is all of it true?

    Can you pick and choose pieces of text from a single book that support your point of view while dismissing those that seem contradictory, and how do you justify the right to do so?
    Don't forget that the bible is not one book or even two books it is an anthology of the writings and oral history spanning millennia. They weren't collected into one book until only about 1700 years ago.

    Some might be historically accurate, some might be tall tales, myths you might say. Some of the new testament is eye witness testimony a lot of the Bible is parables. Lessons to be taught written to be discussed not to be accepted as fact.

    Tim
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    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  13. #73
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    "By the word of the Lord the heavens were made,
    and by the breath of his mouth all their host."

    Psalm 33:6 (E.S.V.)
    "There is not a single instance in history in which civil liberty was lost, and religious liberty preserved entire. If therefore we yield up our temporal property, we at the same time deliver the conscience into bondage." --John Witherspoon, The Dominion of Providence Over the Passions of Men. 1776

    "The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times." Psalm 12:6 (E.S.V.)

  14. #74
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    I believe the Bible to be the word of God, insofar as it has been translated correctly.
    Despite many translations and reinterpretations, The Bible of whatever version you may choose, as currently translated is not a "Sweet fairy tale", as one of my girlfriends stated when I was in College.
    The messages of the Bible seems to be: Old Testament... some small information about our first parents, removal of the Children of Israel from Egypt, and most importantly, Prophecies of the birth and mission of our Savior. New Testament...Testimony of Jesus' divine nature as the literal Son of God, his teachings, death and Resurrection and the actions of the men He called as Apostles following His Resurrection.

    What we have is a bare minimum of the prophecies concerning Jesus, and documentation of His ministry on earth. There is bound to be more, somewhere, and despite the "warnings" in Deuteronomy and Revelations, there can and will be more information received from God for the teaching, guidance and and edification of HIS children. HE loves us now as much as he did in the "olden days".

    I don't know HOW it happened or how long it took for the creation to be concluded, nor do I attempt to explain the miracles of the Bible, but I accept the reality of them.
    IT IS A FINE AND PLEASANT MADNESS !

  15. #75
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    I personally believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God, given to us by His decree. I believe it is more than accurate enough for all but the most learned and picky of theologians. Words often have more than one meaning, and why the King James crew who were assigned to interpret it from the originals, chose one meaning over the other is sometimes in question, that's about all the "error" in the book - again, in my view. I didn't always believe this, but I do now. I had to await some revelations that made me realize just how accurate it really is. After a few revelations, it all makes complete and utter sense. Doubters will guffaw at these statements, but they're true.

    And the most modern science of today has consistently proven that all the doubters' claims of falsity in the Bible, are falsities themselves! But the profane and unbelieving will ignore that as though it doesn't exist. And the media don't cover such matters. But that doesn't undo what modern science has done for belief. They can even give a good explanation of how the physical body of Christ could walk through the door and walls of the upper room after the crucifixion, to see his disciples. Again, the profane don't want to hear about any of that, for it opposes their ideas and unbelief. So be it. Men have, for 2,000 years and more, decided to believe what they wanted to, rather than what the real evidence shows. They have their stories concocted, and they don't want to change them. But isn't that how non-believers believe they HAVE to behave? Lest their stories fall apart, and crumble away before their very eyes? Belief in nothing is not a belief. It's a doubt. I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, my savior, my redeemer, my Lord, and my best friend. Others may believe whatever they want. CHrist and I will walk to the end of my life together, and He will help me over to the other side, and I will dwell with Him in Heaven forever more, and will wonder why I ever held onto living in this world so tightly.

    The 3 big questions of everyone's life are:

    1. Who am I?
    2. Where did I come from?
    and
    3. Why am I here?

    The atheist scoffs at these questions, and says "Eat, drink and make merry, for tomorrow we may die." And he forgets that these questions really DO have answers to them, IF we simply apply our attention and mind and heart to them.

    1. We are children of God, and we were put here for a purpose, that God will reveal to us if we follow His principles here.

    2. We came from His Love. He was lonely and wanted plenty of company, so he made us, and put us here. He will never forsake us, but if we want, we can forsake Him. We are imperfect. He is perfect, and cannot do other than what He is, which is Love.

    3. We are here because it pleased Him to create us, and put all the world and universe in motion. He endowed our world with everything we'd ever need, if we use it properly and study all that He gave us. We get medicines from all sorts of plants and animals, to cure us when we ail. We are supposed to take what we've been given in this world, and convert it to our most profitable uses. And we're supposed to regularly take a break, and worship Him for endowing us with such great abundance. Not all places on earth have so many wondrous and needed provisions as we do in North America. We are most richly blessed. And we're here to appreciate these things, and enjoy them, and be thankful for them.

    That's the gist of it all, really. You believe what you wish. This is my view of it all.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    ................

    The 3 big questions of everyone's life are:

    1. Who am I?
    2. Where did I come from?
    and
    3. Why am I here?

    1. We are children of God, and we were put here for a purpose, that God will reveal to us if we follow His principles here.

    2. We came from His Love. He was lonely and wanted plenty of company, so he made us, and put us here. He will never forsake us, but if we want, we can forsake Him. We are imperfect. He is perfect, and cannot do other than what He is, which is Love.

    3. We are here because it pleased Him to create us, and put all the world and universe in motion. He endowed our world with everything we'd ever need, if we use it properly and study all that He gave us. We get medicines from all sorts of plants and animals, to cure us when we ail. We are supposed to take what we've been given in this world, and convert it to our most profitable uses. And we're supposed to regularly take a break, and worship Him for endowing us with such great abundance. Not all places on earth have so many wondrous and needed provisions as we do in North America. We are most richly blessed. And we're here to appreciate these things, and enjoy them, and be thankful for them.
    Yes, the three big questions.
    However, I have a different "view" on those questions.

    1.You state we are here for a purpose and God will reveal that purpose to us.
    I think that a lot of adult folks who believe in God are still waiting and waiting for that answer.
    Logic tells us that we are "here", so there must be a reason why we are here.
    The answer sort of dove-tails into your view on question #2.

    2."He was lonely and wanted plenty of company, so he made us, and put us here"
    I have read that "view" before but what comes to mind is that our perfect God was lonely?
    That sounds like an earthly, materialistic emotion that does not equate to a perfect Spiritual Being.
    To some, it will satisfy the question but if you think about it, does that make sense?
    To me, it does not make sense.
    You also stated "...He will never forsake us...."
    Yet, you have stated elsewhere that He will send some of us to hell for eternity.

    3. "We are here because it pleased Him to create us........."
    This is similar to your view in #2.
    Once again, your view suggests that God has material desires. Desire to not be lonely. Desire to create a materialistic environment for us to "enjoy".

    We are eternal spiritual beings. When our material body dies, our Spirit continues to "live".....for eternity. We are images of God.

    No disrespect to you Blackwater on your views.
    The mysteries of life won't be known until we are on a higher spiritual "plane".
    Until then, all we have is the books that we read to try and get a better understanding on why God put us on this earth, rather than being with Him in heaven instead.

  17. #77
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    Yesssss! You have hit a nerve with me. How can we define an all powerful heavenly being with human understanding? My premise is we cannot. If we can’t define it, how can you claim to identify the correct “version” of god?

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by T_McD View Post
    Couple of thoughts:

    1) All religions are faith based. Faith to me is belief in spite of insufficient evidence. It is a misguided enterprise to conflate faith with facts.

    2) these threads are a great example of why their are so many religions and so many sunsets of each. People gravitate towards what suits them.

    3) People don’t truly believe in believe in an Almighty God with a day of Judgement. If they did, they would toe the line and behave. Much like I obeyed my Parents because I truly believed they controlled my life (they did for a while).

    4) religion serves as a useful philosophical tool. It is not suitable for everyday decision making.
    1. I'd have to disagree with you here. Faith is NOT belief in spite of "insufficient evidence." It is belief with evidence that comes right up to "proof," but not quite the whole thing. It is belief based on past positive experience that indicates that even though we may not fully understand, it is nevertheless true. It is most definitely NOT belief without facts or reason. We who believe have many, many reasons to have faith in the things that we are told, but fail to understand sufficiently to "know" conclusively that they're true. But we believe them anyway. And the curious thing is, the more we study and discuss, the more we come to understand, and occasionally, we have an epiphany or a revelation that seems to come all by its own self, and come to finally understand things that before, had mystified and been opaque to us. This is the fruit of complying with Christ's admonition to "study to show thyself approved." Only when we've sincerely, diligently and humbly studied, and kept our minds open, can we truly understand some of the more obscure teachings of Christ. Even the newcomer can glean quite enough to sustain them for a while, and carry them to Heaven, but there will always be a benefit of long life, and constant and persistent study and observation. This isn't a huge difference between us, but it's enough to warrant a little clarification. And as to faith being equated with "facts," they ARE facts to believers, but will and can never be equated with "facts" with unbelievers, because faith requires a substance that unbelievers simply cannot possess. And that's conviction, and experience that constantly supports our faith. Have you ever seen a miracle? I have. PM me and I'll tell you about it if you wish. But it's a given that the profane will NEVER accept anything to do with faith as a "fact," just as you state. So what does that make the price of beans in Idaho????

    2. You make a significant point here, and you're a good student of typical human behavior. But let us never forget that what we're talking about here, is human behavior, and NOT the Bible's influence on them.

    3. SOME people believe as you describe, but they can't really be called "Christians." They're just pretenders, most likely who join a church for the purpose of social interactions or other considerations. So please, let's not really deal with them as if they were real, true Christians.

    4. Yeah, it IS a good philosophical tool, but it's so very much more than that when it comes to Christianity. As to its not being suitable for "everyday decision making," that couldn't be further from the truth. First you describe the obvious difference between "faith and facts," and then you demean faith in following statements, and now, you minimize its effect and benefit to all of us by relegating it to a simple "tool" that we use to "control the masses." That is such a limited view, it really can't be dealt with on a forum like this due to a lack of space to really get into the depths of this matter. But everyone has to have something to believe in. I'm not sure what your "thing" is, but so be it. And God be with you, my friend.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snow ninja View Post
    I think God exists because man needed to explain things. Look at any "religion" from history. The Vikings had their Gods to explain why there was thunder and such. When you think about it, a "Bible" containing all of their stories and histories would be just as outlandish as some of the claims in the Christian one. What makes one more right than the other? Other than one person's faith in it.
    Yes indeed, since his rising from the primordial ooze, man has indeed looked up at the night sky in awe and wonder, and somehow, something within him KNEW that there was a real and supremely powerful God in those heavens. But it was MUCH more than just "a need to explain things" that drew those old humans toward belief in God. Glossing over all the things that man is capable of, and stating man found belief only in an effort to "explain things," is a mere carricature of mankind, and an obvious omitting of all the things that make us human. Let's stick to the facts if we're to discuss this very important and crucial issue, OK?

    And as to the stories in the Bible being "outlandish," it may seem that way to you, but then, you've never really sought to find belief or faith, so it's only natural that one so disinclined to really make an earnest search, hasn't found it. But you do not have the authority to declare the Bible's stories "outlandish," and you'll never have that authority. But you do it anyway, which shows you to be a malcontent that would probably complain about ice cream not being good enough for you. So be it if that's what you choose. You have the right to choose anything you want to. But you'll NEVER have the right to declare anything regarding faith as being anything but what it simply is. Maybe it's fun disparaging Christians and their faith and beliefs. I can't see it. I believe it's a fool's errand, but obviously, you disagree. Again, so be it. God gave you the right to accept or deny Him, and no man here or anywhere has the right to make your decisions for you. But remember, you also have the responsibility to get it right, because we only have one life in this world, and afterward, the judgment or whatever you wish to imagine comes next. God be with you my friend. You need Him more than you can presently know.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    1. I'd have to disagree with you here. Faith is NOT belief in spite of "insufficient evidence." It is belief with evidence that comes right up to "proof," but not quite the whole thing. It is belief based on past positive experience that indicates that even though we may not fully understand, it is nevertheless true. It is most definitely NOT belief without facts or reason. We who believe have many, many reasons to have faith in the things that we are told, but fail to understand sufficiently to "know" conclusively that they're true. But we believe them anyway. And the curious thing is, the more we study and discuss, the more we come to understand, and occasionally, we have an epiphany or a revelation that seems to come all by its own self, and come to finally understand things that before, had mystified and been opaque to us. This is the fruit of complying with Christ's admonition to "study to show thyself approved." Only when we've sincerely, diligently and humbly studied, and kept our minds open, can we truly understand some of the more obscure teachings of Christ. Even the newcomer can glean quite enough to sustain them for a while, and carry them to Heaven, but there will always be a benefit of long life, and constant and persistent study and observation. This isn't a huge difference between us, but it's enough to warrant a little clarification. And as to faith being equated with "facts," they ARE facts to believers, but will and can never be equated with "facts" with unbelievers, because faith requires a substance that unbelievers simply cannot possess. And that's conviction, and experience that constantly supports our faith. Have you ever seen a miracle? I have. PM me and I'll tell you about it if you wish. But it's a given that the profane will NEVER accept anything to do with faith as a "fact," just as you state. So what does that make the price of beans in Idaho????

    2. You make a significant point here, and you're a good student of typical human behavior. But let us never forget that what we're talking about here, is human behavior, and NOT the Bible's influence on them.

    3. SOME people believe as you describe, but they can't really be called "Christians." They're just pretenders, most likely who join a church for the purpose of social interactions or other considerations. So please, let's not really deal with them as if they were real, true Christians.

    4. Yeah, it IS a good philosophical tool, but it's so very much more than that when it comes to Christianity. As to its not being suitable for "everyday decision making," that couldn't be further from the truth. First you describe the obvious difference between "faith and facts," and then you demean faith in following statements, and now, you minimize its effect and benefit to all of us by relegating it to a simple "tool" that we use to "control the masses." That is such a limited view, it really can't be dealt with on a forum like this due to a lack of space to really get into the depths of this matter. But everyone has to have something to believe in. I'm not sure what your "thing" is, but so be it. And God be with you, my friend.
    There is a lot here but I will limit my responses.

    1) your almost proof is my insufficient evidence. We will not agree here.

    3) From a biblical perspective, what is the sign of a true, real Christian?

    4) Religion’s main purpose is to control the masses. That is not an insult. I much prefer to disagree with even a poor example of a Christian than a complete unbeliever.

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