The Bible.... Myth, Real, or Both?

[dtknowles]

If your view of God is that He's there to supply us with all that we want, then it's no wonder you believe as you do. But He gave us a world full of abundance, that we might enjoy and utilize it and build something good. But He most emphatically is NOT a big "sugar daddy in the sky" who gives us what we want. He's a father, and like a good father, sometimes He lets us have the inevitable results of our foolishness, as in war, death, disease, etc. But that doesn't make Him one whit less than the God He claims to be! Doesn't this make a lot more sense than believing He's some sort of "sugar daddy" who's supposed to give us what we want, and protect us from some of the choices we make????

What they NEED, and what they WANT, are two very separate and opposite things! Let's not get the two confused, please.

They still are not getting what they need. Many of Christ's followers suffer miserable lives and die.

Tim

[Thundarstick]

They still are not getting what they need. Many of Christ's followers suffer miserable lives and die.

Tim

God's blessings are spiritual. The poorest of the poor to kings, presidents, and dictators die! That is the lot of man kind, to physically die. Following Christ teachings doesn't promise us a nice cushy life, we are called to live a different life than than a worldly man that only worries about his three score and ten years in this life. If you aren't seeking a spiritual life, then spiritual understanding is foolishness to you. Nothing I say, show, or illustrate, can persuade a worldly focused mind to accept spiritual understanding. There are volumes of published life long scholarly works proving how reliable the Bible, especially the New Testament, is. I can post the footnotes for them, but they will be ignored and scoffed at, just as the Bible it's self is held in disbelief. As always, God gives us free will to choose or own paths, be blessed.

[1hole]

... I think it was made up by a bunch of self-serving radical anti-establishment Jews. Led by the Apostilles, his Mom and close friends.

Goodness, what in the world makes you "think" that? What do you think those conniving, self-serving, anti-establishment Jews hoped to gain by planning such a farce?

Are you really "thinking" those sneaky apostles colluded around three years of campfires about how they would introduce a variation of Judaism that would gain them nothing but a hard life and harder deaths for themselves and their followers in a dubious con? Have you ever "thought" of the kind of men the apostles and followers would have had to be for all (but one) of the twelve to stick to a "con job" and horribly die as martyrs themselves when all they needed to escape the pain and live was to recant?

What marvelous power do you "think" Mary could possibly have had on those trembling but spiritually iron strong men to set themselves, their friends and their families up for tortured lives and miserable deaths?

Today we would call them Terrorists. The mistake they made was making him a martyr.

Jesus wasn't a martyr, he was a sacrifice, the apostals were martyrs. And you "think" those harmless guys who would become martyrs would be called terrorists today? Well, maybe by today's Democrats ... and they would also call them racists, queerphobes, obnoxious womenphobes, muslimphobes, antisciencephobes, ad infinitum, none of which would be true.

I think you need to keep thinking.

And you need to drop your humanist delusions of God being the Holy Santa Claus who is (supposed?) to grant us our wishes and make us happy in this life. This life is important to us because it's all we know but this life is, at best, brief while eternity lasts a very long time. Thus, it's important that we rightly chose where we want to spend our eternity.

NOTE: We should all know that God doesn't condemn anyone to hE77, we each make that eternal choice for ourselves. (John 3:17, 18)

[Blackwater]

They still are not getting what they need. Many of Christ's followers suffer miserable lives and die.

Tim

It's no surprise that one who half-believes, as you seem to, would take that view. But when Christ speaks of our "needs," I believe He means something different than when you use the word. I believe you use "needs" when what you're really talking about is "wants." You have a right to your opinion, always. But Christ said He came into the world not to bring peace, but to bring a sword. What does a sword do? It divides, and when it does, it's always with the thinnest of "lines," or pathways of its cut. We need to learn a lesson from that, and choose our wording to express as nearly as possible, as exactly and fully as possible. The word "need" can be interpreted many ways, and the most common alternative is to equate it with our "wants." It's often used in this manner, but here, I'm talking about our real needs, those that affect our temporal and eternal relationship with God.

I see it this way also because Christ has always concerned Himself with the things that He knows we REALLY need, and not with those things we merely WANT. Job believed, even through all the horrible trials he suffered through. Are we to think this wasn't to teach all of us what's important, and what's abandonable, and yet allow us to "prosper" in Christ - a thing of inestimable value to us inevitably? He provided a great example for all the billions (trillions?) who've learned and been inspired and motivated by his story. Does anyone believe that Christ didn't reward him commensurately? If so, they just don't know Christ, I believe.

Christ has given us all the info and evidence we need to believe, and to understand the Bible much more deeply than any of us actually have come to understand it. But such a simple lesson as this one escapes far too many! Christ taught us all we need to know, if we'll but simply read it with an open heart, and not a mind that's seeking some "flaw" in the flawless.

[cainttype]

I believe the concept of “all-knowing”, combined with intimate knowledge in the future of all things (including every individual person’s every yet-to-come decision), added to the idea of being the actual “Creator of all Life” is the main cause of many people who pride themselves on logical, critical thinking to find the belief’s held by many “Christians” as unacceptable fiction.
They question “Free Will” in a situation where others claim each person was created by a power that knew each and every circumstance, choice, and decision they would ever encounter and DESIGNED that person/Life to make every decision they would ever make... Therefore, they know that “Free Will”
would not, can not, exist in such a situation.... And they are right.

It is also the reason that they are offended by this “Plan” idea.
A person finds themself in a tragic situation, possibly several times, and those “All-knowing” promoters can only offer the shallow “It’s his plan, and we don’t understand it...” ridiculousness.
It’s almost a blatant attempt to drive intelligent people away... Why would anyone accept being visited by tragedy as the plan of a God that loves you?
Why would a God that loves everyone, wants them all to join him in Heaven, creates them with full/intimate knowledge of their entire future ever release mass murders, child molesters, evil persons of all manner upon the World.... He wouldn’t.

I do not accept that my future was intimately known when I was created.
I believe my Life was a gift, and what I do with it is my choice. Decisions are mine alone, and were unknown when Life was breathed into me.
I believe Evil exists, and some people choose evil because they WANT too.

There is NO plan....
God did not take your child... Did not create monsters to “teach” us lessons... Does NOT know what decisions I will face or make tomorrow, and did NOT design me with the inclination to choose one way or the other... The choices are MINE, and therefore I have “Free Will”.

Tragedy, evil, and specific knowledge of your future are not part of any plan by God, but how you handle those situations defines you... I believe that is where God’s interest lies.

[a danl]

2nd timothy 3:16 all scripture is breathed out by god and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness

[a danl]

you need to be in a true bible teaching church where one can learn the truth about god. be very careful because the bible warns of false teachers and there are many out there. that's why you have to read scripture and study so you can know if it is correct. it is by grace thru faith and not by works lest anyone should boost that you are saved. in jesus only.. none other.

[cainttype]

You should be careful about proclaiming what is truth and where it can only be found. It is my experience that people using such inflammatory language do it because they lack the ability to support their argument with actual Biblical textual understanding.
Suggesting that someone “needs” faith (or grace) simply because their faith is different than yours is somewhat insulting, and would be the tactic of those false teachers you mention.

The Bible is replete with examples that refute the concept of God’s intimate knowledge of the future of all creation. You simply have to open it and read it unbiased to see them.
It is that conflict found within the concept of futuristic knowledge, creation of all beings, and the existence of free will that leads many to question the sanity of those that preach it.
The Calvinist off-shoots that promoted destiny as the preordained outcome of “God’s Plan” recognized it, and accepted it... I don’t.

I have free will because God did not create me to make the choices I do. He did not look into the future and program me do good or bad.
It’s actually very simple... If the Creator of Life knew every circumstance you would ever encounter, and every choice you would ever make, when he created you... You are a product of his design, created to make the choices you do. You have NO free will, you are destined to be the creature you eventually become...Free will does not exist. It is a hoax....
Without free will there is no need for “judgement”, and the whole concept of Christian theology becomes a farce.

[Thundarstick]

Boy cainttype, I sure wish you'd posted these thoughts into its own thread.

I'm in agreement with you on the subjects you bring up as to why a predefined life and end would simply make God into the great puppet master, however, I'd like to hear your thoughts on how the Holy Spirit works in ones life, if you believe he does.

[cainttype]

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.” Galatians 5:22-23.

I believe the Holy Spirit works by invitation only. You have to want “The Gift” to receive it.
That “Gift” is enlightenment to the ways which please God, and compassion for all of God's creatures.
Jesus’ last Commandment covered the most important, and defining Christian trait...

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” John 13:34-35

[1hole]

God exists outside of time and space in ways man cannot truly comprehend. As the creator of all things that have been created he made man and gave him - us - freedom to make our own choices for good or evil BUT that freedom has always been constrained to certain limits.

In the coming seven years of Tribulation the Holy Spirit's present restraints on men will be removed and THEN those who now complain, "Where is your God when all this bad stuff occurs?" will see the difference of living in a world without Him and they won't like it. Thing is, this world is NOT "heaven", heaven on earth will occur after the end of of this dispensation.

IF some men weren't at least somewhat guided then no one, including God, could possible know what happens in the future so the Bible's prophecies couldn't be correct ... but they are! How? That's far above my paygrade but we all know that fulfilled prophecy has been dead-on right. And, free will or not, we have trustworthy information that says God is still the controlling power (Isa 46:10) so that's good enough for me.

[BigBore45]

Here is my only struggle with belief.

God supposedly give all humans free will yet children that are too young to have any sense of will or even physical ability to do anything die. Now I understand even at the ripe age of 100 years old is but a blip compared to eternity. However why would he allow such wrong to children. It seems to take the Choice and free will away. I struggle with belief when I heard of horrible things about children. Something I'll never be able to shake. A true suffering without baptizing yet and without mercy. Not something I'd expect from the rest of the teachings and sacrifices of Jesus.

[anothernewb]

Far too many historical coincidences for it to not be true. Seems like you are always hearing new discoveries that coincide,reinforce, or validate the stories.

[cainttype]

IF some men weren't at least somewhat guided then no one, including God, could possible know what happens in the future so the Bible's prophecies couldn't be correct ... but they are! How? That's far above my paygrade but we all know that fulfilled prophecy has been dead-on right. And, free will or not, we have trustworthy information that says God is still the controlling power (Isa 46:10) so that's good enough for me.

God’s knowledge of his own future plans, i.e. the prophecies given to men about his future plans, is entirely different than intimate knowledge of everything in your future (every circumstance, every decision) a million years before he created you.
I know what I plan to do quite often, but my plans are easier to upset.

Again, Biblical text has multiple examples that demonstrate the lack of futuristic knowledge in the context we are discussing... So we come full circle, is it real, myth, or some of both?

[1hole]

.... However why would he allow such wrong to children. It seems to take the Choice and free will away. I struggle with belief when I heard of horrible things about children. Something I'll never be able to shake. A true suffering without baptizing yet and without mercy. Not something I'd expect from the rest of the teachings and sacrifices of Jesus.

No need to struggle over dead children, they are for sure in the loving arms of God. Water baptism of unaware children is nothing but denominational rubbish.

God is just and sending children to punishment without justification isn't part of his makeup. So, what you cite isn't a precept of Christianity, it's a lie of men in denominational corruption, an idea probably intended to keep men in constant terror of anyone at all deviating from "the one true church", which is itself a corruption of the truth because anyone who gets to Heaven does so in spite of his denomination, not because of it.

Other than children, salvation is thru a personal faith (trust) in Jesus, in nothing and no one else. Adding anything to individual faith is blasphemy (Eph 2:8-12). Therefore, no matter what someone else may tell you, no denomination has a lock on him. And that IS a foundational precept of the Christian faith.

[1hole]

God’s knowledge of his own future plans, i.e. the prophecies given to men about his future plans, is entirely different than intimate knowledge of everything in your future (every circumstance, every decision) a million years before he created you.

Ah, but you're trying to understand God as if he's nothing but a really big man and that's not true. God exists outside of man's time and space and there's nothing he doesn't know.

Biblical text has multiple examples that demonstrate the lack of futuristic knowledge in the context we are discussing... So we come full circle, is it real, myth, or some of both?

Well, in the Bible God was speaking to men in terms they could understand. He used metapher, hyperbole, parables, etc. to explain to us what his message really was and he did a very good job of it, IMO. Meaning it's the Bible message that's critical, not the specific words. We men make a mess of it by struggling over every jot and title in our Bibles as if He spoke in English ... but he didn't. That means Bible translators do the best they can but we who read it often get ourselves twisted into mental knots over English words and grammar; that need not be.

Not that it matters but I love the KJV. It's what I grew up with but I know it's the worst version for reading by non-scholars who can't see around the many small errors. (That's why we have so many more modern versions available!)

[a danl]

ephesians chapter 1 verses 3 thru 10 please take the time to read it

[Thundarstick]

ephesians chapter 1 verses 3 thru 10 please take the time to read it

The God of Glory
3-6 How blessed is God! And what a blessing he is! He’s the Father of our Master, Jesus Christ, and takes us to the high places of blessing in him. Long before he laid down earth’s foundations, he had us in mind, had settled on us as the focus of his love, to be made whole and holy by his love. Long, long ago he decided to adopt us into his family through Jesus Christ. (What pleasure he took in planning this!) He wanted us to enter into the celebration of his lavish gift-giving by the hand of his beloved Son.

7-10 Because of the sacrifice of the Messiah, his blood poured out on the altar of the Cross, we’re a free people—free of penalties and punishments chalked up by all our misdeeds. And not just barely free, either. Abundantly free! He thought of everything, provided for everything we could possibly need, letting us in on the plans he took such delight in making. He set it all out before us in Christ, a long-range plan in which everything would be brought together and summed up in him, everything in deepest heaven, everything on planet earth.

Praise for Spiritual Blessings in Christ

Eph 3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship[fn] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,10to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

[BigBore45]

No need to struggle over dead children, they are for sure in the loving arms of God. Water baptism of unaware children is nothing but denominational rubbish.

God is just and sending children to punishment without justification isn't part of his makeup. So, what you cite isn't a precept of Christianity, it's a lie of men in denominational corruption, an idea probably intended to keep men in constant terror of anyone at all deviating from "the one true church", which is itself a corruption of the truth because anyone who gets to Heaven does so in spite of his denomination, not because of it.

Other than children, salvation is thru a personal faith (trust) in Jesus, in nothing and no one else. Adding anything to individual faith is blasphemy (Eph 2:8-12). Therefore, no matter what someone else may tell you, no denomination has a lock on him. And that IS a foundational precept of the Christian faith.

How would this be possible if god granted free will? In lots of these examples he takes before free will is acknowledged or tested. Therefore it is never granted. The one promise we are supposed to have.

[cainttype]

Ah, but you're trying to understand God as if he's nothing but a really big man and that's not true. God exists outside of man's time and space and there's nothing he doesn't know.

That’s not true.
I am taking the Biblical text to mean exactly what it says, no more, no less.
If nothing is added or deleted, to suit one’s preconceived notions of what it is “supposed to mean”, the Scriptures can take on a whole new light.

A simple observation (one of many).... God reaches anger several times in The Old Testament. It is clearly stated, and part of the interaction between God and man.
Anger is an emotional response to an unexpected stimulus... Why would The Creator, that knew all before time and created every player in the scenario with intimate knowledge of every tiny detail in their lives ever become angry?... After all, he designed them with full knowledge of every experience and choice they would ever encounter....You could never surprise him, because he would have known eons ago about every scenario as men lived them.
Simply put, he wouldn’t.

There’s plenty of examples that obviously display God’s reaction to emotional stimulus. That alone is contradictory to the ideas we’ve been addressing.
I believe I have free will, granted by God.... because he does not know the choices I will make as I make my own way.
When I face death, I will answer for MY choices.... and will have no one else to blame.