The Bible.... Myth, Real, or Both?

[dtknowles]

I don't think so either, certainly not the way you put it. Many folk, including a lot of supposed Christians, wrongly expect man must "earn" his way to heaven by doing nice things. Not so; see Mat 7:21-23 for those who do good works without an internal heart change. Thing is, IF men could be "good" enough to earn salvation by works, it would not have been necessary for Jesus to sacrifice himself in our stead.

Christians are secure for eternity. But be aware there is no "free ride" for anyone; people who think if they simply claim Christ then they can play "good" and are safe so they can live as they always did are deadly incorrect (see Mat 7:21-24). Only people who are spiritually "born again" and made a new person by the Holy Spirit (John 3:1-17) will be saved and their lives, tho still imperfect, will show it.

Thus is the crux of it; if there is no life change then there has been no new birth and there will be no salvation no matter what they may claim. And a long list of "good works", of itself, proves nothing spiritual.

"will be saved and their lives, tho still imperfect, will show it." There you go, it is not our acts by which we are saved but by our goodness and that will be shown by our acts even if only God sees them.

Tim

[Char-Gar]

"will be saved and their lives, tho still imperfect, will show it." There you go, it is not our acts by which we are saved but by our goodness and that will be shown by our acts even if only God sees them.

Tim

Untrue, we are not saved by our goodness shown by our acts. We are saved because God in his soverign will declares us to be righteous and just. This is what is called grace (God's unmerited favor). Our acts is not why God declares us righteous and just, it is our faith in Jesus Christ. Faith has been the key every since Abraham trusted God to fulfill his promises. This is the consistant message of the New Testament.

[dtknowles]

Untrue, we are not saved by our goodness shown by our acts. We are saved because God in his soverign will declares us to be righteous and just. This is what is called grace (God's unmerited favor). Our acts is not why God declares us righteous and just, it is our faith in Jesus Christ. Faith has been the key every since Abraham trusted God to fulfill his promises. This is the consistant message of the New Testament.

So on judgement day when we stand before God, it is just on our faith in Jesus Christ by which we are judged?

What is the measure of our faith that we might pass or fail?

Is it not how well we modeled the behaviors that Jesus Christ taught?

If you have faith in Jesus Christ you would hold no hate for anyone in your heart. If you hate anyone or envy anyone then isn't your faith weak, maybe too weak to be saved.

Tim

[1hole]

Untrue, we are not saved by our goodness shown by our acts. We are saved because God in his soverign will declares us ...

Roger that Char! Equating "born again" with being nice and doing good things are important but both can be faked. However, for salvation, God measures the heart (1 Sam 16:7, et al) and THAT can't be faked! The difference may seem to be a slight matter of semantics, and I guess it is, but there's a big difference in the spiritual focus and that difference makes all the difference to God!

Under the new Covenant (faith/trust in Jesus as savior) IF we are saved by the Grace of God - and that IS the only way - and IF God's grace means "unearned/unmerited favor" (love) - and it does - then everything good that Christians do properly brings credit to Him and not ourselves; meaning credit to God IS our goal, or at least it should be.

Those "good" people who have spiritually fooled everyone, often even themselves, by being good and doing good stuff are the ones Jesus sadly speaks to in Mat 7:21-27. "Depart from me, I never knew you" are perhaps the saddest words in the Bible.

[a danl]

you should be reading your bible . all your questions are answered there in the word of god

[Char-Gar]

So on judgement day when we stand before God, it is just on our faith in Jesus Christ by which we are judged?

What is the measure of our faith that we might pass or fail?

Tim

Yes, it is just our faith. What is the measure? God searchs our hearts and minds and he knows.

I do see where you are coming from. James in Chpt 2 says "faith without works are dead". However James does not equate works with salvation. When he speaks of "dead faith", he is not talking about salvation, but about a faith that does nobody any good. He calls Christians to a higher standard.

[1hole]

So on judgement day when we stand before God, it is just on our faith in Jesus Christ by which we are judged?

What is the measure of our faith that we might pass or fail?
Tim

Those are good questions and the answers gets taught wrongly much more often than not. I'll ask you to read John 3:16-19 first, it will specificly answer your question of when and for what we are eternally saved or lost. Note there is no "pass-fail" judgement on the issue, we decide that for ourselves and it applies at the moment of our physical death (there's no halfway sweat house or purgatory, etc.).

So, we will each be judged but NOT for heaven vs. hell as it's commonly (wrongly) taught. It's important to know that all of humanity will have been physically resurrected in immortal bodies before either judgement, the saved to eternal glory and the lost to immortal degeneration and punishment "... where their worm (maggots) dieth not ..."

The first court is the judgement seat of Christ. It's called the "bema" seat judgement for those who are already heavenly bound. It's NOT about heaven or hell, it's only for rewards for a life poorly or well lived. No one knows what those rewards will be but we can be sure they will be meaningful.

Next is God's final "court" before the Great White Throne for their sentencing judgements. Again, it's NOT about judging people for heaven or hell, only those already on their way to hell will stand before the Great White Throne. There, the previously judged (bema seat) saved people will be present when the records of the lost are read and judgements will be based on their mortal lives. (You will want to be in the sentencing jury box there, not in the dock.)

The whole thing is clearly encapsulated in John 3:17-19 but in a long life I've never heard a single sermon based on those three verses!

[Char-Gar]

The whole thing is clearly encapsulated in John 3:17-19 but in a long life I've never heard a single sermon based on those three verses!

I have preached thousands of Sermons, but not one on that material. I have however taught John and every other New Testament book in detailed Bible Studies more than once and that material was indeed covered.

In my thinking, Sermons and Bible studies are different critters and the content is therefore somewhat different. A sermon is to encourage, comfort, challenge and educate. A Bible study is to educate, encourage, comfort and challenge. Same general content but with different emphasis. At least this has been my approach to this, although I know others do it different ways.

As Pastor has several functions. He/She comforts the sick and afflicted, encourage the people to continue with life and faith, challenges people to a deeper faith and teaching them about the Christian faith. He/She also has a "priestly" function as well, i.e. maintains the rituals, times and seasons of the faith. He/She is also the CEO of a church and sees that the bills are paid and the doors remain open. The last one is the true pain in the wazoo, the rest while not easy are rewarding for all concerned.

[T_McD]

If you have faith in Jesus Christ you would hold no hate for anyone in your heart. If you hate anyone or envy anyone then isn't your faith weak, maybe too weak to be saved.

Tim

Indeed.

[1hole]

.... If you have faith in Jesus Christ you would hold no hate for anyone in your heart. If you hate anyone or envy anyone then isn't your faith weak, maybe too weak to be saved.
Tim

Not really so, Tim. Hatred, as such, isn't listed as a sin, at least not as a specific thing. What IS mentioned as sin is hatred for a brother, that is to say hatred for a Christian brother but even then it's as forgivable as any other sin. Jesus himself called ultra-religious but unloving Pharisees a den of vipers; we aren't told what his emotions toward them was but he obviously didn't much care for hyper-religious men who loved to self rightously puff their chests out and be critical towards others as lesser beings. (We even get a bit of that here!)

I have no information that you don't have but I doubt Jesus frowns very much when we "hate" people like scam artists who rob the poor. Or rapists, especially so for child rapists. Or bullies. Etc.

But whatever, at worst our harsh emotions are just another sin. None of us are perfect nor will we ever be on this side of eternity. Straight from the Lord's mouth, there is one single sin that cannot be forgiven and personal outrage isn't it no matter what some self appointed modern Pharisee may try to assure you (see Mk 3:28-30, Mat 12:31-32).

[Ickisrulz]

So on judgement day when we stand before God, it is just on our faith in Jesus Christ by which we are judged?

If you have faith in Jesus Christ you would hold no hate for anyone in your heart. If you hate anyone or envy anyone then isn't your faith weak, maybe too weak to be saved.

Tim

People are complex. We often cannot help what is in our heart (i.e., how we feel). But, we can control how we act. We can despise someone and still act for their benefit. Biblical love is big on action rather than emotion.

[Thundarstick]

Emotions are trainable as well as what you do with those emotions. ie Be angry and sin not, slow to anger, not a striker.

[T_McD]

People are complex. We often cannot help what is in our heart (i.e., how we feel). But, we can control how we act. We can despise someone and still act for their benefit. Biblical love is big on action rather than emotion.

I can accept that. Actions (or lack thereof) are of utmost importance.

[dtknowles]

Yes, it is just our faith. What is the measure? God searchs our hearts and minds and he knows.

I do see where you are coming from. James in Chpt 2 says "faith without works are dead". However James does not equate works with salvation. When he speaks of "dead faith", he is not talking about salvation, but about a faith that does nobody any good. He calls Christians to a higher standard.

When God searches our hearts and minds, what might he find or not find that makes the difference.

"faith without works" How could you love Jesus and not help the poor as much as you can? Is it really true faith if you don't take it to heart and invest yourself in good works?

Tim

[dtknowles]

Those are good questions and the answers gets taught wrongly much more often than not. I'll ask you to read John 3:16-19 first, it will specificly answer your question of when and for what we are eternally saved or lost. Note there is no "pass-fail" judgement on the issue, we decide that for ourselves and it applies at the moment of our physical death (there's no halfway sweat house or purgatory, etc.).

So, we will each be judged but NOT for heaven vs. hell as it's commonly (wrongly) taught. It's important to know that all of humanity will have been physically resurrected in immortal bodies before either judgement, the saved to eternal glory and the lost to immortal degeneration and punishment "... where their worm (maggots) dieth not ..."

The first court is the judgement seat of Christ. It's called the "bema" seat judgement for those who are already heavenly bound. It's NOT about heaven or hell, it's only for rewards for a life poorly or well lived. No one knows what those rewards will be but we can be sure they will be meaningful.

Next is God's final "court" before the Great White Throne for their sentencing judgements. Again, it's NOT about judging people for heaven or hell, only those already on their way to hell will stand before the Great White Throne. There, the previously judged (bema seat) saved people will be present when the records of the lost are read and judgements will be based on their mortal lives. (You will want to be in the sentencing jury box there, not in the dock.)

The whole thing is clearly encapsulated in John 3:17-19 but in a long life I've never heard a single sermon based on those three verses!

17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

Are these the verses you think encapsulated salvation?

I seen nothing about bema or White throne.

What does "Whoever believes in him is not condemned" mean, what does it mean to believe in Jesus? Doesn't it mean doing the things that Jesus would want us to do?

Tim

[dtknowles]

Not really so, Tim. Hatred, as such, isn't listed as a sin, at least not as a specific thing. What IS mentioned as sin is hatred for a brother, that is to say hatred for a Christian brother but even then it's as forgivable as any other sin. Jesus himself called ultra-religious but unloving Pharisees a den of vipers; we aren't told what his emotions toward them was but he obviously didn't much care for hyper-religious men who loved to self rightously puff their chests out and be critical towards others as lesser beings. (We even get a bit of that here!)

I have no information that you don't have but I doubt Jesus frowns very much when we "hate" people like scam artists who rob the poor. Or rapists, especially so for child rapists. Or bullies. Etc.

But whatever, at worst our harsh emotions are just another sin. None of us are perfect nor will we ever be on this side of eternity. Straight from the Lord's mouth, there is one single sin that cannot be forgiven and personal outrage isn't it no matter what some self appointed modern Pharisee may try to assure you (see Mk 3:28-30, Mat 12:31-32).

Yes, all but one sin can be forgiven but don't you have to repent other sins for them to be forgiven?

"just another sin" that is pretty cavalier. That is also a slippery slope, willfully and knowingly sinning is an evil unto itself and a mark that you don't love Jesus.

Sinning with the knowledge that you are going to ask for forgiveness might be unforgiveable. Before you can repent don't you need to be truly sorry for your sins, God will see you for what you are.

Tim

[dtknowles]

People are complex. We often cannot help what is in our heart (i.e., how we feel). But, we can control how we act. We can despise someone and still act for their benefit. Biblical love is big on action rather than emotion.

You can feel bad about the hate you can't get out of your heart and pray for help. Not acting on your hate will lessen the harm making repentance and restitution that much easier.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Not really so, Tim. Hatred, as such, isn't listed as a sin, at least not as a specific thing. What IS mentioned as sin is hatred for a brother, that is to say hatred for a Christian brother but even then it's as forgivable as any other sin. Jesus himself called ultra-religious but unloving Pharisees a den of vipers; we aren't told what his emotions toward them was but he obviously didn't much care for hyper-religious men who loved to self rightously puff their chests out and be critical towards others as lesser beings. (We even get a bit of that here!)

I have no information that you don't have but I doubt Jesus frowns very much when we "hate" people like scam artists who rob the poor. Or rapists, especially so for child rapists. Or bullies. Etc.

But whatever, at worst our harsh emotions are just another sin. None of us are perfect nor will we ever be on this side of eternity. Straight from the Lord's mouth, there is one single sin that cannot be forgiven and personal outrage isn't it no matter what some self appointed modern Pharisee may try to assure you (see Mk 3:28-30, Mat 12:31-32).

Hatred, as such, isn't listed as a sin, at least not as a specific thing. What IS mentioned as sin is hatred for a brother, that is to say hatred for a Christian brother but even then it's as forgivable as any other sin."

Jesus said we are all brothers and aren't we even supposed to love our enemies?

You seem to put a lot of stock in sins being forgiven. Habitual sinning even if they can be forgiven does not seem right.

Tim

[dtknowles]

My God, I am sorry for my sins with all my heart. In choosing to do wrong and failing to do good, I have sinned against you whom I should love above all things. I firmly intend, with your help, to do penance, to sin no more, and to avoid whatever leads me to sin.

Our sins are an offense against God, Who is perfect goodness and love. We regret our sins not just because left unconfessed and unrepented, they can prevent us from entering Heaven, but because we recognize that those sins are our rebellion against our Creator.

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

You can feel bad about the hate you can't get out of your heart and pray for help. Not acting on your hate will lessen the harm making repentance and restitution that much easier.

Tim

You place a lot of emphasis on feelings. What if I don't feel bad for the hatred in my heart? Sometimes we just cannot help the way we feel about someone. We can always control the way we act.

Let's replace hatred as the hypothetical with lust. Can a young man ever rid his heart of lust? No way! The lust will be there, but can be kept in check with the will.