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Thread: The Bible.... Myth, Real, or Both?

  1. #341
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by a danl View Post
    tim, if another document was to come along , you wouldn't believe that either , so what's the point tim? all you're doing is creating havoc , i'm saying so-long
    If another document was to come along I would likely believe it if it had proper providence. Actually even if it did not have proper providence I might value it as corroboration of the New Testament. You seem to misunderstand. I am not saying that all of the Bible is lies. I am saying that before I believe that Jesus rose from the dead and is thus the Christ I will need evidence other than the Bible. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence not wishful thinking. The miraculous claim that our sins will be forgiven for merely following the words of Jesus is too good to be true. It would seem to me than anyone who believes that is gullible and his salvation is at risk because he might not have worked hard enough to wipe out his sins and make proper amends. If my creating havoc saves some souls then I have done good. Jesus said go and sin no more and he should have add and go and make amends for the harm you have done.

    Tim
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  2. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizzo View Post
    I think it was, what...300 years after Christ when the Bible was written?
    That's not even close.

    The list of writings we know as the Old Testament was established by the Jews about 400 years before Jesus' birth. The writings that eventually became the New Testament started appearing quite soon after the resurrection, along with a lot of other religious books. Some of those originally under consideration were spacy philosophical musings, some were outright religious forgeries, a few were written in the 400 year "quite period" between the Testaments. And the true ones. Only those books that survived a lengthy and rigorous examination by serious and Godly men were included in the canon.

    In 325 AD, Rome's then emperor, Constantine, called for a convocation of prominent Christian leaders at Nicea, in today's west Turkey, to deal with several major questions in a hope for religious unity; it almost worked. The attendees eventually came to a majority agreement on the already widely known (not brand new) books that would eventually become the N.T. but the canon itself wasn't fully established until about a hundred years later. Ergo, no part of the Bible as we know it was "written" at Nicea in 300 A.D., but Constantine himself had little impact on which books were chosen or rejected from inclusion in the new canon.

    I have a hard time keeping a straight face when I hear complaints over the supposed evils of different Bible "translations" (and "versions"). For goodness sake, the originals were written in Greek, Aramaic (the language of Jesus) and Hebrew - and not 1611 King James English either - none of us can read that! The unusual grammar of different languages demands that any translation be a version. There simply isn't any way a transliterated Bible - i.e., a straight translation, word for word - that some folk think they want could be comprehended.

  3. #343
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    I will make an assumption about Tim. I assume he really is an atheist - stick with me. As an atheist, he believes the Bible is untrue(lie). But he uses it to try to 'prove' it is a lie. That is a logic fallacy, like you learned, double negative. Prove my point, 'the moon is made of cheese'. You cannot prove my statement is false based on only that statement. There is NO reliable source to discount the Bible! The Bible speaks of the Resurrection of Jesus and there is NO evidence that is a lie.
    Tim has stated recently he is a Theist. All 'religions' of the world (past and present) claim a 'god', therefore are Theist. From Molak to Satan and intersteller thinkers. There is really no difference between Theist and Deists; aka, Buddha, Shintō, Hindi and Confucius.
    Ancient Hebrew is an elementary/non-specific written language which is very contextual in form, believed to be an 'accumulation of the mid-east languages - now believed to be started in the Baltic region. I.e. 'words' have varied meanings depending on context usage. Greek (which Jesus spoke fluently) was more specific. Latin even more so. Actually true English is one of the MOST specific - discounting the colloquialisms.
    Whatever!

  4. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    I will make an assumption about Tim. I assume he really is an atheist - stick with me. As an atheist, he believes the Bible is untrue(lie). But he uses it to try to 'prove' it is a lie. That is a logic fallacy, like you learned, double negative. Prove my point, 'the moon is made of cheese'. You cannot prove my statement is false based on only that statement. There is NO reliable source to discount the Bible! The Bible speaks of the Resurrection of Jesus and there is NO evidence that is a lie.
    Tim has stated recently he is a Theist. All 'religions' of the world (past and present) claim a 'god', therefore are Theist. From Molak to Satan and intersteller thinkers. There is really no difference between Theist and Deists; aka, Buddha, Shintō, Hindi and Confucius.
    Ancient Hebrew is an elementary/non-specific written language which is very contextual in form, believed to be an 'accumulation of the mid-east languages - now believed to be started in the Baltic region. I.e. 'words' have varied meanings depending on context usage. Greek (which Jesus spoke fluently) was more specific. Latin even more so. Actually true English is one of the MOST specific - discounting the colloquialisms.
    What's your point?
    This Forum has members with different views and beliefs and we discuss them here.
    It makes it interesting to read other's viewpoints doesn't it?

    Because he (DTKnowles - Tim) doesn't believe what you do seems to bother you and others.
    I find it rather amusing actually.
    He has stated he is not a Christian but does believe in God.
    So what?

    This Forum isn't just for Christians.
    It would be rather boring here if everyone just posted Chapter and Verse now wouldn't it.

  5. #345
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    Only that Tim has been arguing for better than a year that the Bible is not true, with NO justifiable evidence. Just pointing out that his logic in his arguments is a failure. He obviously considers it made up fiction. His opinion, his problem. My opinion, kinda like gun opposition, no real facts, just opinion. Actually the other problem for believers, he is promoting an anti-God thesis.
    I won't comment more.
    Whatever!

  6. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    Only that Tim has been arguing for better than a year that the Bible is not true, with NO justifiable evidence. Just pointing out that his logic in his arguments is a failure. He obviously considers it made up fiction. His opinion, his problem. My opinion, kinda like gun opposition, no real facts, just opinion. Actually the other problem for believers, he is promoting an anti-God thesis.
    I won't comment more.
    I believe in God, there is but one God. The creator of all things.

    I don't believe parts of the Bible. I did not say the Bible is all lies, some parts of it are clearly not the literal truth, they are parables and other parts are so fantastic that I can't believe them without more evidence.

    I think the people who accept the bible as the truth are naïve. I don't believe in miracles. I believe God achieves what God wants using the forces of nature God designed. Of course God understands and can control the forces of nature in ways we can't and can't understand.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

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    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  7. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    I will make an assumption about Tim. I assume he really is an atheist.

    Tim has stated recently he is a Theist. All 'religions' of the world (past and present) claim a 'god', therefore are Theist. From Molak to Satan and intersteller thinkers. There is really no difference between Theist and Deists...…………...
    You acknowledge my claim to be a Theist but go on and assume I am an Atheist. I assure you I believe in God and while I don't condemn Atheists for their lack of belief in God, I do condemn them it the are immoral. Right and wrong are independent of God.

    Regarding "There is really no difference between Theist and Deists." Seriously they are very different.

    theist
    [ˈTHēist]

    NOUN
    a person who believes in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe.

    deist
    [ˈdēist, ˈdāist]

    DEFINITION
    noun

    a person who believes in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe.

    Do you see the difference now?

    Christians are theists.


    Tim
    Last edited by dtknowles; 02-23-2020 at 11:30 PM.
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  8. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    You will have to point me to them because I have looked for other eyewitness accounts of Jesus resurrection and have not found any. Even the Bible does not have a eyewitness account of the actual resurrection only an empty tomb second hand stories about Jesus appearing to people after he had died.

    Tim
    tim , what about the dead sea scrolls ? they are other documents that clearly reference isaiah

  9. #349
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    Yes, the Dead Sea Scrolls duplicate some of what is the Old Testament. I think that there is even an older find that includes parts of the Hebrew Bible canon. Isaiah had been dead for hundreds of years before the Dead Sea Scrolls were written. The Dead Sea scrolls are not different from the Bible they are just copies of the same stories written hundreds of years before they were copied into the Bible.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  10. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    Only that Tim has been arguing for better than a year that the Bible is not true, with NO justifiable evidence. Just pointing out that his logic in his arguments is a failure. He obviously considers it made up fiction. His opinion, his problem.
    Tim's just lonesome and wants someone to listen to him pontificate about what he "believes." What he believes is much less important even to him than simply being heard and the web is the only captive audience he has; I suspect that in our Christian desire to help him we are the only ones who pay him any attention at all. That's sad.

    I wish Tim well but I don't beat my head against rock walls and I'm not a head shrink so ... ???

  11. #351
    Boolit Man trapper44shooter's Avatar
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    The word of god is true these is a vurse in the bible that states let the word of god be true & every man a liar

  12. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by trapper44shooter View Post
    The word of god is true these is a vurse in the bible that states let the word of god be true & every man a liar
    Rom 3:4-8

  13. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Tim's just lonesome and wants someone to listen to him pontificate about what he "believes." What he believes is much less important even to him than simply being heard and the web is the only captive audience he has; I suspect that in our Christian desire to help him we are the only ones who pay him any attention at all. That's sad.

    I wish Tim well but I don't beat my head against rock walls and I'm not a head shrink so ... ???
    What makes you think I am lonesome? Does not take much time to write this stuff here.

    I have a full life, job, family, friends, hobbies, pets. No, not lonesome. You just wish. You seem to want to think of me as unhappy, sad for you. Kind of evil.

    I spend some time here trying to help some people see the light and you want to run me down.

    Nobody here is a captive audience. I have hundreds of followers on Medium. Maybe go look at what I write there. They are not a captive audience either.

    https://medium.com/@timknowles

    https://medium.com/@timknowles/your-...d-adeeb1304c12

    https://medium.com/@timknowles/we-ar...d-2a219a02ea11

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  14. #354
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    I do not make my comments lightly to Tim, my conviction is that his 'logic' is not logical, it has faults. He contradicts himself. He uses definitions to state his beliefs, Ok. But doesn't believe in 'miracles' but does believe in Creation. Doesn't believe in the Resurrection of Jesus because of no collaborating 'evidence' from other sources. As I stated to him, you think the Romans or Jews are going to write about the guards failure to prevent theft of the body? If ANY of it happened, explain please! This was a violent time to live, the Romans built a ramp to kill zealots, a bridge across a large river to tick off the germans. Do something not 'approved' and you die. Guards that failed were terminated - that is in scripture and elsewhere. Vlad the 'impaler' was a nice guy comparatively.
    Whatever!

  15. #355
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    I occasionally attempt to remind everyone that this thread is/was intended to give an opportunity for each member to share their personal opinions on Biblical texts. It was hoped they could explain why, or how, they had come to those conclusions.
    There will never be consensus on the question “Truth, myth... in whole or in part?”, but by honest discussion we might be better able to understand each other, whether we disagree (intensely), or not.

    As a general rule, everyone with an opinion believes they are right.. kinda the nature of the beast, as far as having opinions goes.
    In essence, this thread was not an attempt to prove whose opinion was correct, but rather to give those that might be interested a chance to better understand those that don’t share the same views.

    Hopefully, with a little patience, we may learn more about each other, even if we don’t learn anything new about our opinions, or persuasive enough to change them.
    Understanding each other a little better, even if we simply agree to disagree... That’s never a bad thing.
    Last edited by cainttype; 03-09-2020 at 05:43 AM.

  16. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    I do not make my comments lightly to Tim, my conviction is that his 'logic' is not logical, it has faults. He contradicts himself. He uses definitions to state his beliefs, Ok. But doesn't believe in 'miracles' but does believe in Creation. Doesn't believe in the Resurrection of Jesus because of no collaborating 'evidence' from other sources.……..
    You are right, sometimes I contradict myself. I would not mind having that pointed out. Some times my logic probably has faults. Nobody is perfect. This is the second time you mentioned my contradiction regarding creation and you are right. I have been thinking about it since you first mentioned it. I guess I do believe in miracles but I am very skeptical. Creation is undeniable and miraculous. Other miracles, incredible things require incredible evidence.

    I don't believe in the Resurrection of Jesus. I don't say it did not happen, I don't know. I don't believe it did and it will take some incredible evidence to convince me. I am open minded about it. It is only supported by the weakest of evidence, 2000 year old hearsay testimony. Your explanation of why evidence is so scarce is credible but explaining why evidence is scarce is not evidence. It does not make the existing evidence stronger. It could mean there will never be enough evidence to make a convincing case.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

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