The Bible.... Myth, Real, or Both?

[1hole]

He is just playing with you, just playing with you. He is looking for something to twist to cast doubt on your belief.

Yeah. Or at least he's trying ... but two can play his kind of games and I'm having phun. He might do better if his reasoning was at least a little bit logical or even consistent. Actually, I know he's hopeless, I'm hoping my responses might benefit others who are following the discussion, such as it is.

[Char-Gar]

An atheist was seated next to a dusty old cowboy on an airplane and he turned to him and said, “Do you want to talk? Flights go quicker if you strike up a conversation with your fellow passenger.”

The old cowboy, who had just started to read his book, replied to the total stranger, “What would you want to talk about?”

“Oh, I don’t know,” said the atheist. “How about why there is no God, or no Heaven or Hell, or no life after death?” as he smiled smugly.

“Okay,” he said. “Those could be interesting topics but let me ask you a question first. A horse, a cow, and a deer all eat the same stuff – grass. Yet a deer excretes little pellets, while a cow turns out a flat patty, but a horse produces clumps. Why do you suppose that is?”

The atheist, visibly surprised by the old cowboy's intelligence, thinks about it and says, “Hmmm, I have no idea.”

To which the cowboy replies, “Do you really feel qualified to discuss God, Heaven and Hell, or life after death, when you don’t know crap?”

[1hole]

Rofl!

[dtknowles]

Huh? What part of what I wrote about that was unclear?

You are massively agonizing about how God chooses to punish man for his sins rather than about what Jesus did to save man from the just penalty for his sins; you need to get your priorities in order.

"if known sins continue, the Lord will dump a load of "whoop ***" on us and I can prove it by the assortment of deep tank track scars all over my butt."

Your own words!

Tim

[dtknowles]

He is just playing with you, just playing with you. He is looking for something to twist to cast doubt on your belief.

With his idea that he is being punished for his sins while still on Earth sounds more like a Old Testament Jew, don't you think? Or maybe it is the Prosperity Bible?

Tim

[dtknowles]

An atheist was seated next to a dusty old cowboy on an airplane and he turned to him and said, “Do you want to talk? Flights go quicker if you strike up a conversation with your fellow passenger.”

The old cowboy, who had just started to read his book, replied to the total stranger, “What would you want to talk about?”

“Oh, I don’t know,” said the atheist. “How about why there is no God, or no Heaven or Hell, or no life after death?” as he smiled smugly.

“Okay,” he said. “Those could be interesting topics but let me ask you a question first. A horse, a cow, and a deer all eat the same stuff – grass. Yet a deer excretes little pellets, while a cow turns out a flat patty, but a horse produces clumps. Why do you suppose that is?”

The atheist, visibly surprised by the old cowboy's intelligence, thinks about it and says, “Hmmm, I have no idea.”

To which the cowboy replies, “Do you really feel qualified to discuss God, Heaven and Hell, or life after death, when you don’t know crap?”

First, deer, horses and cows do not eat the same stuff. Second, cows chew their cud. This joke is nonsense.

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

First, deer, horses and cows do not eat the same stuff. Second, cows chew their cud. This joke is nonsense.

Tim

Cows, horses and deer can all eat grass and process the nutrients just fine. How that effects their waste, I'll admit I don't know.

The joke is like the final act of the Book of Job. Man has lots of opinions on the workings of God without having all the facts or insight into God's mind and motivations. This is laughable since man cannot even solve seemingly simple earthly mysteries.

[Char-Gar]

Cows, horses and deer can all eat grass and process the nutrients just fine. How that effects their waste, I'll admit I don't know.

The joke is like the final act of the Book of Job. Man has lots of opinions on the workings of God without having all the facts or insight into God's mind and motivations. This is laughable since man cannot even solve seemingly simple earthly mysteries.

You got the point, thanks for looking beyond the "fact deficiencies" of the parable. In Texas Whitetail deer eat forbes, but will eat grass if food conditions push them to it, but it is the food of last resort. Non-native species of deer do eat grass as their first choice.

[1hole]

With his idea that he is being punished for his sins while still on Earth sounds more like a Old Testament Jew, don't you think?

Are you suggesting that God will not punish us here for sins committed here? The Old Testament is filled with many examples and none of it any connection with the O.T. Jewish Law of Moses.

The N.T. also has several examples of earthly punishments so, yes, as I clearly stated, it's in the Word and I believe the Word to be true. God "chaseneth whom he loves" (Heb 12:6-11) but that doesn't mean he'll send the spiritual children he loves to hell (or to a non-existent purgatory). And his punishments are simply to correct us, he won't stomp a mud hole in our butts trying to get even. WE are the ones who determine how much punishment it takes to straighten us out; being wrong and stubborn hurts!

Or maybe it is the Prosperity Bible?

Tim

I have no clue what a "Prosperity Bible" is. Do you mean those who believe in the "prosperity gospel"? If so, I'll state this as clearly and simply as I can; "There is no such gospel, the idea is a people controlling farce. I have no respect for those who teach it but I have great sympathy for those who believe it." I hope that won't also need to be repeated for you to understand it. ???

[cainttype]

The way we view The Bible determines our views on everything “Christian”, and much the Jewish faith.
I expect people to have questions, or to disagree, on almost any subject if there are more than a few intelligent individuals in the group.

Questioning other’s views is not the same as questioning The Bible, although it may well be questioning how one interprets Biblical text.
I see a healthy discussion as a good thing. Others may see it differently.
If you are comfortable with your beliefs, or questions, you should be able to competently and politely discuss them with those who agree, disagree, or have no opinion at all.
Obviously, I’m curious about the views of others, whether I agree or not... Listening to people that agree with me never taught me much.
Your mileage may vary.

[1hole]

Obviously, I’m curious about the views of others, whether I agree or not... Listening to people that agree with me never taught me much.
Your mileage may vary.

Ditto.

[EDG]

Man has solved many mysteries, many more than there is room here to list but I will name a few.
The Salk and Sabin vaccines for polio, the eradication of small pox, development of electrical power, invention of powered flight, freezing and other means of long term food preservation, development of penicillin and other modern antibiotics, modern surgical techniques, etc. There is also the various imaging techniques such as X-ray, cat scans, MRIs etc.
I would bet that many or all of you and members of your families would be dead without some of the mysteries solved by man. I would not trade a single one of those for all the bibles on the planet. The bible has not provided a single answer to any of man's maladies. Man will cure more diseases and maladies in the future while improving his quality of life. Not only that but in the future the bible will not solve any mysteries while man goes on learning and solving mysteries. While man goes on improving his life though learning and change your bible cannot change. Your kind will still be preaching the same old party line years and decades in the future until your biblical tales are forgotten.
The bible eventually be forgotten simply because it can add nothing to man's life.

There are currently about 7.7 billion people on the planet making use of those mysteries solved by man. Most of the earth's population gets along fine without ever touching or reading a bible.

Cows, horses and deer can all eat grass and process the nutrients just fine. How that effects their waste, I'll admit I don't know.

The joke is like the final act of the Book of Job. Man has lots of opinions on the workings of God without having all the facts or insight into God's mind and motivations. This is laughable since man cannot even solve seemingly simple earthly mysteries.

[cainttype]

I see Char-Gar has been banned...
I certainly hope this thread had nothing to do with that, and would NEVER have started it if I had any idea it might result in such actions.

Char-Gar is one of the GOOD GUYS... He’s been a very valuable member of this forum for a loooong time.
Many of “The Old Guard” have left for various reasons, including bans, but each and every one of them take a precious knowledge/experience base with them.... It’s a great loss to a forum like this.

I hope this ban is only temporary, and will be glad to see it ended.
This place will be less interesting, and less intelligent without Charles...

[1hole]

Char-Gar is banned? He's a good man! Wonder what standard of measurement caused that?

[dtknowles]

Char-Gar is banned? He's a good man! Wonder what standard of measurement caused that?

Hope it is temporary.

Tim

[Surculus]

1st off, you have to remember that the Bible is one of the most heavily re-edited pieces of literature the world has ever known. King James was looking for a political screed to calm unruly subjects: you think the monks he hired to compile a new bible didn't know which side their bread was buttered on? The OT is pretty much all myth [those parts not devoted to record-keeping, like Deuteronomy's "begats"] to answer "where did we come from?" and provide cohesion to a semi-nomadic and frequently invaded culture. The New Testament is composed of individual gospels, and like any collection of eye-witness testimonies, most of one disagrees with another's. And let's not forget that a HUGE collection of gospels were knowingly excluded [look up the Council of Nicea somewhere in the 300s? iirc, & realize that anything that didn't support the official party line got written out of history in the interest of consolidating the nascent political hegemony of the Church...] And then of course, there's the little aspect that not *everyone* even agrees upon the divinity of the carpenter from Nazareth. So what *do* the major religions agree upon? Well, Jesus is a prophet nearly as important as their favorite misogynistic pederast to the Moslems, and when Zen Buddhists have been read the Christ's teachings they agree that he sounds like someone who has achieved satori [which is usually translated as "enlightenment."] I don't require divinity, nor do I have faith in pie in the sky in the sweet by & by: his teachings are a recipe for heaven on earth, not a ticket to some heaven we only get to see after our ticket gets punched. If more people who claim to believe in him actually lived the life he taught, there'd be a lot more people who'd listen to his message. Just sayin'.

[1hole]

[QUOTE=Surculus;4736159]

Interesting screed but you have so many factual errors it's hard to take you serious.

1st off, you have to remember that the Bible is one of the most heavily re-edited pieces of literature the world has ever known.

Bible "edited"? Do you mean it's so often been translated into other languages or changed to keep up with English word meaning changes over time? Like, I assume everyone knows the original word "gay" has no application to its meaning today. There are many other words and a LOT of English grammar, some of which mandated changes in the KJV-AV Bible just to keep up. But there is nothing nefarious about it, save the corrupted "New World Translation", and some few false books supposedly "correcting" the Bible by adding false supports for cult doctrines.

King James was looking for a political screed to calm unruly subjects: you think the monks he hired to compile a new bible didn't know which side their bread was buttered on?

Monks are low level Roman Catholic leaders. They don't translate or edit anything and there were NO monks in the KJV translation teams. Most of the KJV translators were Calvinists, hard opposed to many RC doctrines. And they didn't by any means "compile" a new Bible; they simply completed the works of previous translators into English from the latin Bibles then in use by the RCC.

The OT is pretty much all myth [those parts not devoted to record-keeping, like Deuteronomy's "begats"] to answer "where did we come from?" and provide cohesion to a semi-nomadic and frequently invaded culture.

Myth? I won't even ask for your justification of that one.

I will note that much of the Old Testament is a historical record of the whole Hebrew nation from Adam to about 400 years before the first coming of Jesus, as the son of man. Family lineage was/is important to Hebrews so, yes, the Bible does include important genealogies. But not in Deuteronomy. Maybe you meant in 1st Chronicles or N.T. Matthew? Anyway, this isn't a fuzzy math class, if you want to post facts then you need to know the facts.

The New Testament is composed of individual gospels,

The N.T has 27 books. Just as points of fact, only the first four are gospels. Two were written by the Lord's disciples (Matthew and John), the other two were not (Mark and Luke).

... and like any collection of eye-witness testimonies, most of one disagrees with another's.

Most eye-witness accounts differ because each one sees and hears some things but not everything. And some observers pay more attention to some facts than others. The differences don't mean the witnesses "disagree", it simply means we need to get all the views we can in order to get a better view of an event.

And let's not forget that a HUGE collection of gospels were knowingly excluded [look up the Council of Nicea somewhere in the 300s? iirc, & realize that anything that didn't support the official party line got written out of history in the interest of consolidating the nascent political hegemony of the Church...

A "huge" collection of "gospels" were "knowingly" discarded by the Nicean council? Those men knew what they were doing and, yes, they eliminated a number of redundant and clearly erroneous books.

Again, I won't ask for justification of you claiming a "huge" number of proposed books were blocked from inclusion in the canon of N.T. books but we have no valid reason to suggest those men were trying to distort anything. In fact, the Nicean record shows they were very careful about what they accepted as spiritual writings; I like that.

There was no "official party line" or "political hegemony of the Church" at that time, each congregation was independent and they mostly remained so for a few hundred years more.

And then of course, there's the little aspect that not *everyone* even agrees upon the divinity of the carpenter from Nazareth.

And Stalin is still dead.

Maybe you could name a single organization of any kind, anywhere in the world, that has no differences of opinion? And tell us what your obvious point tells anyone?

I don't require divinity, nor do I have faith in pie in the sky

Alright, so now we know you don't require divinity nor do you have pie on the sky faith. BUT ...... ??

If more people who claim to believe in him actually lived the life he taught, there'd be a lot more people who'd listen to his message. Just sayin'.

Just saying? Well, okay. But, I say if more people who claim to love the USA would respect our history and flag a lot more people would respect our history and flag. Seems not everyone can be trusted to live what they say, can they? But recognizing that truth doesn't mean everything they say is invalid does it?

[cainttype]

This is not directed at any previous post, but should be mentioned for the sake of clarity when it is suggested that “editing” has had some detrimental effect on The Bible...

It is often said, erroneously, that the early Christian church (read Roman Catholic here) tried to “hide ‘The Word’” by using hand copied Bibles written in Latin...
First, the printing press made it’s arrival over a thousand years after monks were painstakingly making works of art with handmade bibles to preserve “The Word”.

Second... From before the time Jesus walked the Earth, and well past the time The Bible was being translated into English, Latin was THE universal language. Anybody, anywhere, that was “educated” could and did read Latin (Think Roman Empire, and it’s influence here).
Latin was at that time the BEST language to use if you wanted to SPREAD and SHARE the biblical texts.

Add the fact that Latin was, and is, very precise (why it is still used today in science, medicine, etc...) and the suggestion of any “attempt” to keep the biblical text hidden becomes totally ridiculous.

The use of Latin, it’s widespread influence and it’s accuracy, could very well be the ONLY reason we find early transcripts hidden away in ancient caves that confirm many of the texts we read today as being accurate translations.
“Just sayin’...”

[1hole]

Schwartz, no offence was intended.

It is often said, erroneously, that the early Christian church (read Roman Catholic here) tried to “hide ‘The Word’” by using hand copied Bibles written in Latin...

First, the printing press made it’s arrival over a thousand years after monks were painstakingly making works of art with handmade bibles to preserve “The Word”. The use of Latin, it’s widespread influence and it’s accuracy, could very well be the ONLY reason we find early transcripts hidden away in ancient caves that confirm many of the texts we read today as being accurate translations.

Roger that.

I'm no fan of most Roman Catholic doctrines but I am a fan of truth. Truth is, a lot of incorrect things are said about the RCC.

First, there was NO governing church establishment from Rome or anywhere else for something like 2-3 hundred years after Jesus' death but the New Testament books were written in the first part of that early time period. ALL books were hand written copies then.

The various congregations would get a copy of Mark's gospel and make copies for its own use and for further distribution to other congregations. Thus, each church would eventually get other copies of the same book. This effectively insured that any spurious changes would be detected (and destroyed) fairly quickly. Thus, no sneaky (nonexistent at th time) RCC power structure could possibly have made any effective changes in those widely hand copied texts.

Next, for accuracy, we should also know that later RCC popes and councils DID slowly pick up a few of the books that had been kept out of the canon. The RCC called them the "lost books" of the Bible and used them to support their errors. (Those books weren't "lost", they were rejected by a very large council called to establish the proper canon.) And, of necessity, they had to suddenly establish many "church traditions" to support what isn't in their superflouis Bible additions. But none of that could have started until about 400 AD, long after any meaningful New Testament text changes could have been made.

[Blackwater]

All this talk of God punishing us while we're still on earth troubles me. I don't think that's the proper and actual case, or the manner in which it should be seen and believed. Sure, we do indeed do things, even the best among us, that constitute sins or shortcomings. And yes, things do indeed happen that make us "pay the price" for our misdeeds. However, to see this as a simple cause-effect relationship, is, I believe, rather short-sighted and based on our own assumptions, without serious deliberation on the matter.

We are told that "God is Love," and indeed, this MUST be so, or He wouldn't keep putting up with such a recalcitrant bunch as us humans. A God of Love does not go around just looking for sins to punish. He IS, however, concerned with our growth and increasing our understanding and faith. Just reacting by punishing us does not edify or benefit us. It shames us, and diminishes us. God wants us to grow, so as I see it, He simply lets the natural and inevitable ends of our sins overtake us as they are naturally wont to do. He's not punishing us. He's just LETTING us LEARN! Now that's the kind of action that a true God of Love works upon!

We so often assume a cause-effect relationship when we see sin and "punishment" occur in sequence. But if we simply read more, explored deeper, and came to understand more of how God REALLY works, and why He does what He does, we discover that He's even more regal, more majestic, and more loving and in control than we'd ever suspected!

Yes, the "wages of sin is death." Of course it is. What else could it be? But God is always watching to find ways to edify us, and bring us closer to him, and increase our understanding of him, IF .... only we simply THINK about things, and don't just adopt knee-jerk reactions as the explanations to what God is doing. Far, far too easy to run ourselves astray when we do that. God wants us to think! Why else would He have given us a brain so capable of abstract thought and investigation???? Sometimes, I have to wonder how we got so averse to actual logical thinking and evaluation!