The Bible.... Myth, Real, or Both?

[a danl]

There are religions that believe that you get for example 74 virgins if you martyr yourself. Is that true simply because its written? Is it true because you wish to blindly follow? Lets look at this closely... due to the fact there is promiscuity the likely hood of finding 74 virgins for lets say 1000 people is going to be slim to none. They martyr themselves because they are told to they will evidentially go to a promised land even tho they kill others in the process of killing themselves. Yet it is written ah the power of the written word don't question it but believe entirely in it.

You believe in bigfoot? Seems to be some evidence to support it. I haven't personally seen one nor have a seen any physical evidence to support one yet people believe. Aliens..... yet another wonderful topic. Ever watch the history channel ? The documentary's they have on ancient Egypt the pyramids? Seems to be some cutting evidence there on aliens life forms having constructed the pyramids via other technology. Appears to have been done prior to the great flood. Someone else here on Earth prior to Christ? A lot to think about some of it brings about doubt about what we have been taught or maybe better yet brainwashed.

i said "some things" , i didn't say all things. did you ever ask yourself about the so-called 74 virgins and wonder where they supposedly came from and how they got there?

[a danl]

Do signs matter to you? They do to me!

I once had a 10 acre piece of partial bottom land with a small stream running through it. I lived there for 25 years. There was a game trail in the thick brush along side the stream. The stream had what looked like a couple of beaver dams. I often saw deer tracks in the trail and an occasional rub. In the 25 years I lived there I never saw a single deer or beaver but, by the signs I did see, I'm certain there was a few of each.

I'm almost 80 and have been a Christian since age 16. I've seen a lot but I've never seen God. However, I've seen the certain signs of His guidance and care in my life and the lives of many others so I'm certain He was there for all of us and He still is. I've already seen a lot of life and I'm still looking!

My eyes are not as good as they used to be but I'm not blind to all that's happening to me and around me; "I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able ...."(II Tim 1:12-14). So, perhaps as you can see, it really doesn't matter to me what anyone else "thinks" or "believes" about God, or why.

Signs do matter. Thus, from the signs I could easily see, I know I once had deer and beaver on my land and God is still in my life.

i will gladly amen that, brother.

[roadie]

The problem here is that there's no way to prove that the bible is in fact true. Other writings from other religions have the same chance at being correct as the bible does. The 74 virgin thing may have come from someones imagination, just as the alleged resurrection could have......or,the 74 virgin thing may be entirely true, just as the resurrection thing may. I had thought it was 72 virgins, I ain't about to check on it though.

This debate has been going on for centuries, millions have died defending, as well as forcing, their views on others. Religion, and the bible, are probably the biggest factors used to initiate every major conflict known to man. It's strange though that of all the billions of people who have gone to meet their creator, not a dang one of them has come back to finally put this matter to rest. Not one has sent word that things are just rosy, or the place is full of virgins, or anything at all. I've known people who, if anyone, would be in this magical place called Heaven, but nothing, just crickets.

I would think that any place that can supply all one's wishes, any paradise that lets you fish all day, and get the big one every time, well, I would think such a place would have some way to communicate.......lemme guess, they have sent messages, we're just too dumb to pick up on it. The great thing about religion and the bible, is that there's always an answer, no matter how things have to get twisted around to suit, there's always an answer......if you believe.

[bmortell]

maybe im the only one who thinks it but if i was a clever creator making a sorting process for the afterlife. finding out who will blindly follow something with no proof and repeat whatever I tell them and rage wars over it forever seems like an easy test for exclusion. people say theres traps, but don't consider that they are looking at it..

[a danl]

The problem here is that there's no way to prove that the bible is in fact true. Other writings from other religions have the same chance at being correct as the bible does. The 74 virgin thing may have come from someones imagination, just as the alleged resurrection could have......or,the 74 virgin thing may be entirely true, just as the resurrection thing may. I had thought it was 72 virgins, I ain't about to check on it though.

This debate has been going on for centuries, millions have died defending, as well as forcing, their views on others. Religion, and the bible, are probably the biggest factors used to initiate every major conflict known to man. It's strange though that of all the billions of people who have gone to meet their creator, not a dang one of them has come back to finally put this matter to rest. Not one has sent word that things are just rosy, or the place is full of virgins, or anything at all. I've known people who, if anyone, would be in this magical place called Heaven, but nothing, just crickets.

I would think that any place that can supply all one's wishes, any paradise that lets you fish all day, and get the big one every time, well, I would think such a place would have some way to communicate.......lemme guess, they have sent messages, we're just too dumb to pick up on it. The great thing about religion and the bible, is that there's always an answer, no matter how things have to get twisted around to suit, there's always an answer......if you believe.

Christ's resurrection had many eye witnesses . i have a hard time with anyone who doubts without first having read or even tried to understand the bible , let alone joining a church and giving of their time to hear the word preached . and it must be a bible preaching church, not one with a lot of man made ideas of their own. when anyone uses the term religion it is "mans attempt to reach God by their own understanding and not God's." God is the one who gave us the bible . Jesus is called the Word, back in the book of JOHN it states "in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. P.S i will admit i also at one time was a doubter, however God brought into my life someone who took the time to teach me so that i could understand the truth and therefore become saved. and once someone understands now it becomes very clear and that's where faith happens.

[Rizzo]

The problem here is that there's no way to prove that the bible is in fact true. Other writings from other religions have the same chance at being correct as the bible does. The 74 virgin thing may have come from someones imagination, just as the alleged resurrection could have......or,the 74 virgin thing may be entirely true, just as the resurrection thing may. I had thought it was 72 virgins, I ain't about to check on it though.

This debate has been going on for centuries, millions have died defending, as well as forcing, their views on others. Religion, and the bible, are probably the biggest factors used to initiate every major conflict known to man. It's strange though that of all the billions of people who have gone to meet their creator, not a dang one of them has come back to finally put this matter to rest. Not one has sent word that things are just rosy, or the place is full of virgins, or anything at all. I've known people who, if anyone, would be in this magical place called Heaven, but nothing, just crickets.

I would think that any place that can supply all one's wishes, any paradise that lets you fish all day, and get the big one every time, well, I would think such a place would have some way to communicate.......lemme guess, they have sent messages, we're just too dumb to pick up on it. The great thing about religion and the bible, is that there's always an answer, no matter how things have to get twisted around to suit, there's always an answer......if you believe.

Killing in the name of the Lord.
So sad when thinking about that.

I do not belong to any organized religion myself.
Raised a Catholic, did the altar boy thing and got indoctrinated to the Catholic teachings but do not participate anymore except when my wife wants to go to church on Christmas.

Religions have a built in prejudice.
It goes like this..."Oh! see Bob over there? What a nice guy he is. (Then in a lowered whispered voice) You know he is a Mormon don't you?"
We're right, they are wrong. We are the True Religion.
<sigh>

I can understand some of your opposition to religion.

But, where are you at roadie?
You sound like an Atheist but I am not sure.
What's your idea of how all of this (creation) came to be, and what happens when you die?

[dtknowles]

Christ's resurrection had many eye witnesses . i have a hard time with anyone who doubts without first having read or even tried to understand the bible , let alone joining a church and giving of their time to hear the word preached . and it must be a bible preaching church, not one with a lot of man made ideas of their own. when anyone uses the term religion it is "mans attempt to reach God by their own understanding and not God's." God is the one who gave us the bible . Jesus is called the Word, back in the book of JOHN it states "in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. P.S i will admit i also at one time was a doubter, however God brought into my life someone who took the time to teach me so that i could understand the truth and therefore become saved. and once someone understands now it becomes very clear and that's where faith happens.

How do you know Christ's resurrection had many eyewitnesses? You read it in the bible? Beside the bible is there any recorded eyewitness testimony of the resurrection? Ever by anyone who was not a follower of Jesus?

You are back to saying that we should believe the bible because the bible tells us so.

Tim

[roadie]

Killing in the name of the Lord.
So sad when thinking about that.

I do not belong to any organized religion myself.
Raised a Catholic, did the altar boy thing and got indoctrinated to the Catholic teachings but do not participate anymore except when my wife wants to go to church on Christmas.

Religions have a built in prejudice.
It goes like this..."Oh! see Bob over there? What a nice guy he is. (Then in a lowered whispered voice) You know he is a Mormon don't you?"
We're right, they are wrong. We are the True Religion.
<sigh>

I can understand some of your opposition to religion.

But, where are you at roadie?
You sound like an Atheist but I am not sure.
What's your idea of how all of this (creation) came to be, and what happens when you die?

I had my eyes opened at a young age as to churches and religion. Many of the nastiest people you could ever meet were also devout followers of the bible. Even as a youngster, I could see there was something not quite right about this religion thing. It has always been, and it will always be.

It's been said that god wrote the bible, not true. Man wrote it, man put his interpretation of things into it many times over the course of history. Sure, it can be argued that it contains god's thoughts and these people just recorded them, but there are many, many people who have others living in their heads due to many different things. Some of those people haven't been the nicest ones you could meet. I have no idea how many translations have been done, more than a few I think. Temptation is a very strong thing, what better time to make things right than when it's being translated. I read the bible cover to cover some 45 years ago, took some time and it came off as kinda an ancient Peyton Place thing, sure a lot of sinning going on.

I really don't know what I am, never cared enough to label my beliefs as atheist, or whatever other labels there are. I believe we live and die like any other critter on Earth has for eons. Then we go back to the Earth in whatever form, ashes, bug food......except for the ones who get frozen, mind you, a power failure could raise havoc with their plans on that deal. I think Heaven is the result of man's abject terror on realizing he is not immortal........what if? It sounds much more like someone playing the odds, grabbing at straws, than a true belief in an afterlife and a Heaven.

I also believe that being as this Earth is here, other possibilities most certainly exist, though I don't buy into the Creation thing. More likely a couple of rocks crashed into each other and the Earth was born after a few billion years and the cooking of the needed ingredients delivered the critters, including man. I have no idea where the rocks came from and I really don't care, some things are just what they are. But certainly, possibilities do exist for other life forms, other planets......maybe we all just vaporize into space and join up with all the other energy out there.

[a danl]

How do you know Christ's resurrection had many eyewitnesses? You read it in the bible? Beside the bible is there any recorded eyewitness testimony of the resurrection? Ever by anyone who was not a follower of Jesus?

You are back to saying that we should believe the bible because the bible tells us so.

Tim

exactly , now you're getting somewhere. there are many historical documents that Jesus rose from the grave , you just don't want to believe no matter what.

[6bg6ga]

Its called brainwashing. Religion conditions people thru repetition. How do we know "XXX" because the bible tells us so. it doesn't take to many cycles of this to imprint it into the mind. As I see it and I'm sure this won't go well with others ...Religion satisfies the physiological need to believe in a supreme being. 2.) Religion serves as a behavior modifier. If you think your going to go to hell for killing the neighbor your less likely to do it. 3.) The promise of a prize. Your immortal souls will go to Heaven for eternity. There you have it folks. The human needs satisfied by behavior modification. Throw the fear of God and the Devil into someone and promise a prize at the end for conducting yourself in a normal manner and your saved and society is all the better for it. Take that one step further and add the addition of money into the equation and you now have a TV Church capable of bringing in millions of dollars supporting those Christian ministers. Amen Brother.

[a danl]

you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink............................................. ....

[dtknowles]

exactly , now you're getting somewhere. there are many historical documents that Jesus rose from the grave , you just don't want to believe no matter what.

You will have to point me to them because I have looked for other eyewitness accounts of Jesus resurrection and have not found any. Even the Bible does not have a eyewitness account of the actual resurrection only an empty tomb second hand stories about Jesus appearing to people after he had died.

Tim

[a danl]

You will have to point me to them because I have looked for other eyewitness accounts of Jesus resurrection and have not found any. Even the Bible does not have a eyewitness account of the actual resurrection only an empty tomb second hand stories about Jesus appearing to people after he had died.

Tim

get bill o'reilly's book 'Killing Jesus' he will give info , also a book by Lee Strobell "The Case For Christ" here goes;from the bible ; Luke (one example) chapter 24 verse 38 (after the resurrection ) and he (Jesus) said to them,(his disciples) "why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is i myself. touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that i have.".....you're correct that noone saw the actual resurrection however , when mary magdeline went to the tomb there was an angel there and she thought he was the gardener . he said to her why are you looking for the dead among the living? for He is not here , he has risen.......................maybe i should have said "the resurrected Christ rather than Christ's resurrection.

[1hole]

The problem here is that there's no way to prove that the bible is in fact true. Other writings from other religions have the same chance at being correct as the bible does. The 74 virgin thing may have come from someones imagination, just as the alleged resurrection could have......or,the 74 virgin thing may be entirely true, just as the resurrection thing may. I had thought it was 72 virgins, I ain't about to check on it though.

Excuse me for laughing, no disrespect intended, but you really don't have a clue do you?

[dtknowles]

get bill o'reilly's book 'Killing Jesus' he will give info , also a book by Lee Strobell "The Case For Christ" here goes;from the bible ; Luke (one example) chapter 24 verse 38 (after the resurrection ) and he (Jesus) said to them,(his disciples) "why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is i myself. touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that i have.".....you're correct that noone saw the actual resurrection however , when mary magdeline went to the tomb there was an angel there and she thought he was the gardener . he said to her why are you looking for the dead among the living? for He is not here , he has risen.......................maybe i should have said "the resurrected Christ rather than Christ's resurrection.

That is still the Bible not some other document and it is hear say not eyewitness testimony. How come there is no one saying. "I saw Jesus after he was put in the tomb? We only have second hand accounts and only from his disciples and not from say the Romans or the Pharisees. Testimony for a skeptic is more powerful and from a disciple. A disciple has a motive to lie. It is a fact that Peter is a documented liar, he denied knowing Jesus three times.

Tim

[a danl]

That is still the Bible not some other document and it is hear say not eyewitness testimony.

Tim

tim, i'm sorry but at this point after 2000 years i'd say it's all hear say. if it can't be accepted by faith then i'd say noone can help you.......................by the way Jesus told Peter ahead of time that he was going to deny him three times before the rooster crowed....what's it take tim?

[roadie]

Excuse me for laughing, no disrespect intended, but you really don't have a clue do you?

No offense taken, but I'll tell ya what.

I'll excuse your ignorance, if you'll excuse mine.

[6bg6ga]

Like I said I grew up in the Catholic faith. I remember the sermons at Sunday mass. Still, its hearsay. For all we know God is an Alien. The stories say he can walk on water, turn water into wine, feed hundreds with what was it 6 loaves and fishes? Rise from the dead. Sounds like a supernatural thing or an alien thing to me. Still is hearsay in my opinion no proof only stories second hand by the way. Yet there are people here that believe without a single doubt simple because they have it drummed into them at an yearly age what to believe. Believe that God rose from the dead. Why? The Bible says so. Its proof why? Well just because. Here is the best part... they can poke fun at us the non-believers in the good Christian spirit instead of respecting what we believe. Some of us rely on logic and common sense. Example, your car starts on fire. How do you know? Well, two neighbors witnessed the fire and called 911 and a fire truck was dispatched. See, that is a logical assumption based on fact so I believe it. The story of Adam and Eve having lived a long time having had thousands of children is nonsense. Why? Its impossible for Eve to have that many children unless of course she was non-human which would in my mind start bringing up yet more questions. Sorry, I think the whole concept of religion is based on lies and false truths.

[1hole]

Testimony for a skeptic is more powerful and from a disciple. A disciple has a motive to lie.

It should be difficult to say that with a straight face; what do you think would have been the disciple's motive to lie?

Do you think they - and their followers - wanted to be kicked out of synagogs, separated from their Jewish families and die by stoning? I see nothing attractive about that!

You think the disciples thought there was money to be made? Not only did all but one of the disciples die by torture and with empty pockets and homeless but so did many of their families. And, general terms, they knew most of that up front; you see lots of riches in that?

You think a dozen Jewish guys looked forward to being homeless and poverty stricken for the rest of their lives when all they needed to do to get out of deadly trouble was testify they were "lying" about the resurrection? Or do you really "think" they figgered that as Christians they would live as highly respected men in a Jewish land?

You say there are no "eye witnesses" to the risen Christ in the Bible? There are several eyewitness accounts but the most impressive is found in I Cor 15:6. What other kind of witnesses do you require, what would it take for you to believe them? And don't say they had a mass delusion; that's silly, no 500 people are going to have the same delusion at the same time!

Tim, I know you "think" you think a lot but I can assure you that your perception would be greatly improved if you didn't insist on looking at this Jesus stuff through a small brown orifice!


* Side Note #1:

It's impossible to take serious anyone who even casually equates Islam with Christianity. For one thing, they've never feared for their lives and family safety around Christians but, sooner or later, Muslims plan to behead them, enslave their children and make their wives sex toys. And that's not my foolish "thought-up" hyperbole BS, it's in their book.

Note #2:

I should and do respect people. But I do not respect people's foolish errors of belief no matter how firmly held, nor do Christians have a duty to do so. Wrong is wrong, no amount of respect can change that.

I know people who actually believe the world is flat and several who don't believe we put men on the moon; some believe 9-11 was a massive US. government black ops. Those are all wrong beliefs so, no matter what some stoned college "professor" says, neither I nor anyone else has a duty to "respect" those silly beliefs.

I don't "respect" wrong religious beliefs either; wrong is wrong. The other errors are harmless but that one error has disasterous eternal consequences!

Christians have a God directed duty to try to get non-believers to actually think it through and find truth for themselves but that's all we have a duty to do.

Few of us are eager for long running but pointless arguments with those who, like Tim, refuse to really think ... and, in that refusal or inability, they certainly aren't unique (2 Tim 3:7).

[dtknowles]

It should be difficult to say that with a straight face; what do you think would have been the disciple's motive to lie?

Do you think they - and their followers - wanted to be kicked out of synagogs, separated from their Jewish families and die by stoning? I see nothing attractive about that!

You think there was money to be made? Not only did all but one of the disciples die by torture and with empty pockets and homeless but so did many of their families. You see lots of riches in that?

You think a dozen Jewish guys looked forward to being homeless and poverty stricken for the rest of their lives when all they needed to do to get out of it was testestify they were "lying"? Do you really "think" they thought that as Christians they would live as highly respected men in their land?

You say there are no "eye witnesses" to the risen Christ in the Bible? There are several such eyewitness accounts but the most impressive is found in I Cor 15:6; what kind of witness account do you require? And don't say it was a mass delusion; that's silly, no 500 people are going to have the same delusion at the same time!

Tim, I know you "think" you think a lot but I can assure you that your perception would be greatly improved if you didn't insist on looking at this Jesus stuff through a small brown orifice!


* Side Note:

It's impossible to take serious anyone who even casually equates Islam with Christianity. For one thing, they've never feared for their lives and family around Christians but, sooner or later, Muslims plan to behead them, enslave their children and make their wife a sex toy. And that's not my foolish "thought-up" hyperbole, it's in their book.

Did 500 people report seeing the risen Christ or did one person report that 500 people witnessed the risen Christ. How many of those maybe exaggerated 500 people had actually seen the Jesus while he was alive to recognize him after his death.

Besides, these are all still Bible Stories. What about something that is not from the Bible. Some independent accounts.

I can provide a motive for the disciples to lie. Once they have taken the path of being an evangelical disciple and facing potential persecution then exaggerating the works and holiness of their Messiah elevates their religion and their position. You will need a very powerful Savior to attract a following if they are facing persecution.

Actually there are no historical records of the deaths of the Apostles to prove that they died Martyrs or even that they were persecuted. There are only stories and legends. There are historical records that the Romans did persecute Christians and it is not unlikely that the Apostles were Martyred but there are no contemporary records only stories and legends. The Romans kept many records but it does not seem that the Apostles were of particular note to the Roman Leadership. Christianity at the time of the Apostles was so very tiny a population.

http://philandmartha.org/ministry/ho...year-ad-100-2/

Tim