The Bible.... Myth, Real, or Both?

[dtknowles]

You place a lot of emphasis on feelings. What if I don't feel bad for the hatred in my heart? Sometimes we just cannot help the way we feel about someone. We can always control the way we act.

Let's replace hatred as the hypothetical with lust. Can a young man ever rid his heart of lust? No way! The lust will be there, but can be kept in check with the will.

I would put acts as more important than feelings. Feelings still matter and I think are still possibly sinful.

If we have sinful feelings we should work to get rid of them.

Words are tricky when trying to describe feelings. Lust, is it just a strong desire or something more and worse.

Hate, is it just a strong dislike or something more and worse.

I don't think desire or dislike are sins but I believe that lust and hate are sins and hate and lust can be taught and they can be untaught.

Others here will tell you that all sins are equal, I will tell you that I don't believe that is true and I believe evil thoughts are not as bad as evil deeds.

Someone might come and quote scripture to correct me but I take scripture with a grain of salt.

Tim

[1hole]

Jesus said we are all brothers and aren't we even supposed to love our enemies?

Man, you ask good questions that want long answers and I'm not a long answer writer! But, I'll try.

Jesus spoke to fellow Jews and they were indeed his brothers. And, in the larger context, we agree that all mankind are our brothers in a sense. And who/why some are our "enemies" can vary greatly. But knowing that doesn't require we apply love loosely and without exception. I mean some people are really evil and evil must be recognised and stopped.

You seem to put a lot of stock in sins being forgiven. Habitual sinning even if they can be forgiven does not seem right.

My comment about our hatred for evil people is "just another sin" isn't a casual thought. I'm recognizing how men want to grade sin on a sliding scale ranging from "not too bad" to "very bad" where God sees all sin as absolute. God requires absolute perfection in us and knows we can't attain that no matter how hard we may try. That was the Old Testament law and we failed the test, so Jesus came as a man and lived ONE absolutely perfect life and, by his sacrifice for us, we Christians have, by faith in Him, been accorded his perfect record; that's a really good thing. So, YES, I do put a great deal of value on Jesus' shed blood covering ALL of our sins; it cannot be otherwise if we are to be in heaven with God! Thus, a lot of what seems "right" to us is not what God has ordained for us.

You are correct that no one can live in constant sin without cost. We may fool ourselves and those around us about being "born again, a new creature in Christ" but our "fruits" will show the truth. Ergo, no, we can't really love and see the needs of others all around us indifferently. Some Christians will and do continue in a pet sin(s) but it seems that gets punished here, in this life.

[T_McD]

Someone might come and quote scripture to correct me but I take scripture with a grain of salt.

Tim

You seem to have the gist of scripture better than most here.

[Char-Gar]

You seem to have the gist of scripture better than most here.

Not true! It is an old scoffers ploy to lift words from scripture out of context to create a false contridiction. They try and imply that an apple and an orange are really two apples. Only the scripturally ignorant are taken in by this and they swallow it hook, line and sinker.

Of course you are a scoffer yoursef, so you want to affirm his nonsense. Often scoffers form a "tag team" to undermine the faith of Christians. If such folks were not trying to undermind the faith of others, they would just think and let think and not throw this misleading stuff out there. Such folks are self condemmed by their own words.

[1hole]

Others here will tell you that all sins are equal, I will tell you that I don't believe that is true and I believe evil thoughts are not as bad as evil deeds.

And thoughts alone without are not as bad as thoughts committed because the first is a sin against God and ourselves but the second adds harms others. But, from a spiritual view, that recognition misses the point; God requires perfection, not "I do the best I can." We simply cannot accomplish perfection; sin is born in us. No one has to teach a baby to rage in selfish anger or a bigger child to lie, it's in them and the spiritual goal of life long perfection is destroyed before any child knows his right hand from his left. Thus, the ONLY way for anyone to attain the required perfection is for Jesus' own record of perfection to be accorded to us, one soul at a time. The ONLY way for us to gain that attoning record is to believe in - i.e., trust in, cling to, rely on - Messiah! So, are all sins equal? No, certainly not, but it makes no difference spiritually. Therefore all sins are the same in effect and the only "cure" for all sin is the same.

Someone might come and quote scripture to correct me but I take scripture with a grain of salt.

Tim, that's a mistake because it's not scripture that's faulty, it's men's misunderstandings of scripture that are faulty. The Bible is a big, thick book and there is a LOT of stuff in it, much of it in bits here and bits there, not all nicely clustered together in one place. That means people who have only studied fragments of the Bible only get fragmented understandings. The only cure for that is to study the whole Book and THEN reconcile the parts that first appear illogical and/or contradictory. In other words, let scripture define scripture. You need to get more of scripture, not less, and prayerfully study to see truth.

Do that and you can learn to lovingly overlook the mistakes of well meaning people who misquote parts of scripture. It can get to be easy to do because MANY of their misunderstandings are mostly harmless in the long run.

Remember that God measures the hearts of men for good or evil, not for their imprecise understandings of scripture! Nor does God have a humanistic pass/fail checklist for grading our sins on a comparative curve.

Bottom line, either our sins - all of them - are covered by the blood of Jesus or they are not covered at all.

[Char-Gar]

Can't have an evil deed without first having an evil thought. Deeds good and bad deeds proceed from thoughts, that is why Scripture tells us to have within us the "mind of Christ". Conforming our minds is the first step, to conformig our lives to Cruciform living.

This is why in the Christian scripture and faith, a evil deed is a bad as an evil thought. I should think this would be clear basic logic, but perhaps it is not to scoffers and persons who take scripture "with a grain of salt".

[T_McD]

Can't have an evil deed without first having an evil thought. Deeds good and bad deeds proceed from thoughts, that is why Scripture tells us to have within us the "mind of Christ". Conforming our minds is the first step, to conformig our lives to Cruciform living.

This is why in the Christian scripture and faith, a evil deed is a bad as an evil thought. I should think this would be clear basic logic, but perhaps it is not to scoffers and persons who take scripture "with a grain of salt".

So absent mind reading, I can judge folks by their actions. Taken further, if your actions aren’t noticeably different from others then it would seem your mind isn’t different either.

[1hole]

So absent mind reading, I can judge folks by their actions. Taken further, if your actions aren’t noticeably different from others then it would seem your mind isn’t different either.

Ah, Mac, you see the world through distorted glasses.

Yes you can, and do, judge people anyway you wish. And blindly define people you don't know and attribute whatever motives with whatever imagined justification makes you feel good about your smug self. But your posted opinions and judgements matter not to anyone because you're stumbling around in spiritual darkness and 'bout 30 degrees off vertical.

Before leaping to judgement of others about how imperfect they may be, do you think it might be wise to know at least a little about how THEY were before coming to Christ, instead of grading everyone according to your own rigid (and highly inflated?) self opinion? I mean, you may have attained perfection but the rest of us are still struggling along and trying to do better every day.

[T_McD]

Not talking directly to anyone.

My premise is that the most reliable way to judge the mind is based on actions.
And if folks actions are similar, their minds are as well.

[Char-Gar]

Not talking directly to anyone.

My premise is that the most reliable way to judge the mind is based on actions.
And if folks actions are similar, their minds are as well.

If a man walks through a door, there could be scores of reasons why. If a man drives a car from point A to point be, there could be scores of reasons why. If a man buys a gun, there could be scores of reasons why, etc. etc. etc. etc.

Actions may be constant, but the thinking behind them vary considerably. Trying to imput thinking to an action or actions may be a fools errand.The best way to determin thinking is to ask.

[bmortell]

holy cow there's 10 pages of people fighting each others quotes now

[Thundarstick]

holy cow there's 10 pages of people fighting each others quotes now

Yep, says it rite the at the bottom of the page, and we just advanced it two more post.

[1hole]

holy cow there's 10 pages of people fighting each others quotes now

Guilty. I guess.

"Fighting" seems a bit overstated tho. Differences, even strong differences, aren't always equal to "fighting" are they? But, whatever spin you want to put on it is fine with me.

I often use quotes in my posts to avoid confusion by focusing specifically on what I'm addressing, point by point, accurately and therefore fairly without having to repeat it - or spin it - myself, as I've done here; is that bad?

[Char-Gar]

Not directed anyone in particular, but for those willing to consider it, I am reminded of Psalm 14: 1-3 ...

14 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. ² The Lord looked down from Heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. ³ They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The scoffers and God deniers are in fact idolaters. Some of them make science their highest authority and judge all things by science and hence in fact worship science. Others of them worship their own mind and reason, making themselves their highest authority. Both types bow to human knowledge, rather than a creator God who made the universe and all that is in it.

[Char-Gar]

A good seminar in Christian Apologetics is always a useful instrument when faced with those "tag teams".

I was well schooled in Christian Apologetics in Seminary. However I choose not to engage scoffers and God deniers, in an intellectual fencing match, hoping to score points. These folks will not change their minds by information or intellectual argumentation. They are as your mentioned in you scripture quote above. They have lived so long in spiritual darkness, they have lost the ability to see God and spiritual matters in general. I much prefer to expose them for what they are, to minimize the damage they can do to others who are not spiritually blind.

The battle between good and evil is very real and should be recongnized for what it is. It is a battle and not a debating society. This is my essential problem with Christian Academics as people, they love the mental gymnastics, and become so Heavenly they are of no earthly good.

Anti-Christian bias is rampant in this country and even shows up on rinky-ding internet boards of all types. Christians bemoan the rise of this bias, but don't challenge it, when they opportunity appears in front of their noses.

Of course, as you say, not directed toward anybody in particular.

[Thundarstick]

I was well schooled in Christian Apologetics in Seminary. However I choose not to engage scoffers and God deniers, in an intellectual fencing match, hoping to score points. These folks will not change their minds by information or intellectual argumentation. They are as your mentioned in you scripture quote above. They have lived so long in spiritual darkness, they have lost the ability to see God and spiritual matters in general. I much prefer to expose them for what they are, to minimize the damage they can do to others who are not spiritually blind.

The battle between good and evil is very real and should be recongnized for what it is. It is a battle and not a debating society. This is my essential problem with Christian Academics as people, they love the mental gymnastics, and become so Heavenly they are of no earthly good.

Anti-Christian bias is rampant in this country and even shows up on rinky-ding internet boards of all types. Christians bemoan the rise of this bias, but don't challenge it, when they opportunity appears in front of their noses.

Of course, as you say, not directed toward anybody in particular.

I, for one, appreciate the good works you have shown fourth here, and do indeed take courage from them! I'm of the opinion that church leadership is doing (has done) a very poor job of educating Christians in how to fight the good fight! I'm amazed by the number of people who attend services all their lives, yet don't even know our own scriptures, much less how to defend against, and call out the false teachers, unbelievers, and scoffers! Take courage brothers and sisters, fight the good fight, keep the faith, but study so you know what you are fighting for, or against!

[Thundarstick]

Not directed anyone in particular, but for those willing to consider it, I am reminded of Psalm 14: 1-3 ...

14 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. ² The Lord looked down from Heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. ³ They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Words such as these inspired scripture are the reason so many are content to be their own god! Greater than that, is the implication that NONE, THAT'S NO ONE, will be justified before God by their own merits!

[Char-Gar]

I, for one, appreciate the good works you have shown fourth here, and do indeed take courage from them! I'm of the opinion that church leadership is doing (has done) a very poor job of educating Christians in how to fight the good fight! I'm amazed by the number of people who attend services all their lives, yet don't even know our own scriptures, much less how to defend against, and call out the false teachers, unbelievers, and scoffers! Take courage brothers and sisters, fight the good fight, keep the faith, but study so you know what you are fighting for, or against!

Very true, American Christianity has grown weak and flabby and wants to make nice with evil rather than oppose it.

[Char-Gar]

Most certainly and why I offer that scripture for the reflection of those willing to consider it.

As to Char-Gar's observation that modern American Christianity has become weak; it has and I'd suggest for those whom wish to offset the psychological-intellectual effects produced by the secular attack (most often by the far Left) upon Christianity, I'd highly recommend the writings of Blaise Pascal, Aquinas and Whitehead.

Most notably, Pascal, a scientist, mathematician, and philosopher who also defended the scientific method, clarified prior research by Torricelli in the field of fluid dynamics) defended Christianity and science (after all, it is one of the instruments that God gave us) offers some sage advice on using ''diplomacy'' to counter the positions of those attacking Christianity. And why not? Using "diplomacy" to beguile evil before defeating it is another instrument used in apologetics and it's a worthy one at that. Additionally, Pascal offers the pragmatic argument that,

Finally, we must always bear in mind when defending Christianity that all men (and women, too, of course) are endowed with "free will" and the ability to choose for themselves between "good" and "evil". Bearing this in mind, we must sometimes take our leave of those who refuse/deny God's love and gift of salvation in search of those who will accept it with the proviso that those who refuse/deny God's love may have evil in their hearts and may attack us as we take our leave of them:

I find myself in agreement. I would add to your list "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis and his collected essays "God in the Dock". You list is indeed a good one. That said, I am not sanguine that those on this board who like to attack faith in general, will take the time to examine the intellectual underpinnings of the Christian faith. In 2,000 years, many have thought through the rather superficial notions raised by the faithless on this board. They ASSUME that faith has no intellectual basis and go from there.

[Thundarstick]

In 2,000 years, many have thought through the rather superficial notions raised by the faithless on this board. They ASSUME that faith has no intellectual basis and go from there.

A more true statement had probably never been uttered on this sub forum! I've repeated over and over that, "I don't have a blind faith!".