The Bible.... Myth, Real, or Both?

[dtknowles]

Deputy, if I may ....

Don't know how long you've followed Tim's posts but he is quite odd for someone professing to be a Christian.

To honestly (I think) paraphrase Tim (for brevity), at various times he has told us:

* Says God is not all knowing, not all powerful and lives in a constant struggle with Satan

* Says man is in control of human history, not God

* Faith in Jesus as savior is NOT the only way to Tim's version of heaven

* His heaven is a reward for being good; thus, he believes those of other "beliefs" (i.e. , cults and "good" atheists) will go to heaven if they do enough nice things on earth

* Tim says the Bible is only partially correct and God agrees with him when He is confused

* Says he "knows" all this because God has (directly?) told him so


In spite of all that, Tim hasn't specifically said but suggests he's Christian. He asks a lot of "Bible" questions worded to extract specific (and erroneous) answers but, troll like, he rarely answers his own leading questions. So, we are left to ask, is Tim honest with all the outrageously wrong things he has posted? Or, is he a secret Jehovah Witness? Or is he just another pot-stirring web troll? Who knows?!

Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus!

How could you imagine I am a Christian. While I respect Jesus as a great teacher and martyr I do not believe he is God and our Lord and Savior. I have said that may times in many posts.

I am not a Jehovah Witness and I do not belong to any Chruch and I do not follow any religion. I think no more than 8 of the ten commandments are correct. I believe that there is but one God, the creator of the heavens including the Earth. Philosophically I am probably closest to Theists. I am not a Deist because I will not rule out God acting in the present. Being a Theist really only means I believe in God.

Tim

[1hole]

How could you imagine I am a Christian. While I respect Jesus as a great teacher and martyr I do not believe he is God and our Lord and Savior. I have said that may times in many posts.

Seems I owe a couple of apologies.

First, sorry that I offended you in my thought you might be some sort of Christian. But, I haven't read many of your posts and, since you have made several references to scripture, I felt you might, at some level, consider yourself a Christian and gave you the benefit of any doubt; that was obviously a mistake. I was wrong and accept your correction, I apologise and withdraw the suggestion.

Several of your stated beliefs are straight out of J.W. pamphlets. I also apologise to them for thinking you might be one.

... I think no more than 8 of the ten commandments are correct.

What? ! YOU THINK "no more than 8 of the Ten Commandments are correct"? Goodness, what a THINKer! I won't ask which you THINK may be right or why/how you came to your strange conclusions.

I will close by saying your half-good perception of Jesus is not unique but the only way you could possibly be right is either he was a highly skilled mad-man or the world's most successful liar; neither is good. Maybe you should do a bit more thinking?

[mpescatori]

I have read your posts. The ideas within them are those of secular Bible scholars (i.e., unbelievers) and are so at odds with any Christian or Jewish theology they don't warrant a dialog on this forum; by me anyway.

And yes, there are counterpoints and answers to each issue you posted above. I am sure you know that and what they are. But I doubt that matters to you. Are you here to entertain yourself and undermine the faith of others'?

This section of the forum is supposed to be an extension of the Chapel but has been almost taken over in the last few months by scoffers with axes to grind.

I have no axe, no grinder, and speak in low and soft tones.

I believe that if one puts everything in the hands of "Faith", he/she is the prime target of television/circus preachers.

Knowing the facts, remembering what was on page 17 when you are at page 43 means you cannot be taken by the hand and walked around like a toddler - quite the contrary.

How many times did the Pharisees try to put Jesus and the Apostles in difficulty with awkward questions? How was the answer? It was Always a learned answer, never a "have faith".

Off the cuff, how many animals did Noah lead into the Ark, without having to look it up?

[a danl]

I have no axe, no grinder, and speak in low and soft tones.

I believe that if one puts everything in the hands of "Faith", he/she is the prime target of television/circus preachers.

Knowing the facts, remembering what was on page 17 when you are at page 43 means you cannot be taken by the hand and walked around like a toddler - quite the contrary.

How many times did the Pharisees try to put Jesus and the Apostles in difficulty with awkward questions? How was the answer? It was Always a learned answer, never a "have faith".

Off the cuff, how many animals did Noah lead into the Ark, without having to look it up?

noah did not lead any animals to or on the ark, God brought them

[Blackwater]

It is amazing to me how some folks twist and contort their thinking in order to believe that Christ was NOT the savior, whom He claimed to be. It's also amazing how some folks twist and contort the scriptures to conform to their concepts and ideas, rather than merely taking His words at face value. If He is indeed the Son of God, as He claimed, then he would NEVER - never Never NEVER! - deliberately try to confuse us, or hide His true manings. A loving and caring God would set forth His words in as straight and understandable a manner as possible, wouldn't he? And yet, how often we hear of folks trying to interpret His words in a manner so as to create confusion and doubt. And mostly, all because they can't or won't accept the simple veracity of His words! What a willful and insolent lot we can be sometimes!!!

90+% of His words are very simple and straightforward. It's our wills that are crooked and twisted - NOT His words! Wouldn't a good and benevolent God put forth His words in a manner that even those who are not mental giants could understand. How else could He do that other than to speak plainly, simply and directly to the issues of concern to him?

We so often overthink the scriptures! It just seems to be part of our natural psyches. But it's not a functional part of our minds. Evil indeed DOES exist in this world, and it can take many forms. Anything that detracts or diminishes the good within us is, by definition, evil. It doesn't matter how much we might love it, and want it to continue. All that matters is what things ARE, in reality. Our imaginations CAN get us in a lot of trouble, some of it that we can never get out of. The wise are very circumspect about these matters. The foolish ..... well, they do what the foolish have always done. God bless us all, and God bless the USA.

[1hole]

Amen.

[Rizzo]

It is amazing to me how some folks twist and contort their thinking in order to believe that Christ was NOT the savior, whom He claimed to be. It's also amazing how some folks twist and contort the scriptures to conform to their concepts and ideas, rather than merely taking His words at face value. If He is indeed the Son of God, as He claimed, then he would NEVER - never Never NEVER! - deliberately try to confuse us, or hide His true manings. A loving and caring God would set forth His words in as straight and understandable a manner as possible, wouldn't he? And yet, how often we hear of folks trying to interpret His words in a manner so as to create confusion and doubt. And mostly, all because they can't or won't accept the simple veracity of His words! What a willful and insolent lot we can be sometimes!!!

90+% of His words are very simple and straightforward. It's our wills that are crooked and twisted - NOT His words! Wouldn't a good and benevolent God put forth His words in a manner that even those who are not mental giants could understand. How else could He do that other than to speak plainly, simply and directly to the issues of concern to him?

We so often overthink the scriptures! It just seems to be part of our natural psyches. But it's not a functional part of our minds. Evil indeed DOES exist in this world, and it can take many forms. Anything that detracts or diminishes the good within us is, by definition, evil. It doesn't matter how much we might love it, and want it to continue. All that matters is what things ARE, in reality. Our imaginations CAN get us in a lot of trouble, some of it that we can never get out of. The wise are very circumspect about these matters. The foolish ..... well, they do what the foolish have always done. God bless us all, and God bless the USA.

What you say makes sense to me, but, in my mind, it's not that simple.
Good luck to the truth seeker who reads the Bible to find out the "meaning of life' and what God is all about.

Taking the literal word from the Bible can create confusion to the new seeker.
For example: "Thou shalt not kill"
Well, that's pretty straightforward. One could take the literal words and be very confused.
I think we all pretty much understand the meaning of that to be Thou shalt not murder.

That's just one example. The Bible has passages that are confusing unfortunately.
Even the apostles did not understand what Jesus was saying in some cases.
What is written and what it means can be two different things.

For better understanding about what the Bible says and what it means has sparked all kinds of books to be written and Bible Study classes to be given for those who are searching for a better understanding.

[6bg6ga]

How could you imagine I am a Christian. While I respect Jesus as a great teacher and martyr I do not believe he is God and our Lord and Savior. I have said that may times in many posts.

I am not a Jehovah Witness and I do not belong to any Chruch and I do not follow any religion. I think no more than 8 of the ten commandments are correct. I believe that there is but one God, the creator of the heavens including the Earth. Philosophically I am probably closest to Theists. I am not a Deist because I will not rule out God acting in the present. Being a Theist really only means I believe in God.

Tim

I can also relate to a lot of what you have said. I believe in a creator a supreme being. I am quite bewildered by the bible. To me not a lot of it makes sense. It can be interpreted different ways again my opinion. Another thing... a lot of churches have started simply because people didn't like what was being taught. There are a few religions that are a result of a split off from the Catholic church. Lutheran is one of them and probably the Church of England another. It would seem that when we don't wish to believe what is being taught someone starts yet another church. Ever notice how every single denomination says "They are the One True Church?" Like I have mentioned before on this forum I was raised Catholic and I guess you would say lost my faith. Recently before we moved I was going to a Christian church. When I got into a conversation with a paster at a Baptist church I was told the Christian church wasn't correct and I was making a mistake by going there. I marvel at some of you with unquestioning faith. I guess I am more scientific and need more proof call it lack of faith. My whole life religion has been centered around the almighty dollar. You gotta give that 10% off the top now. I'm sorry but there is so much that is illogical in my mind about the Bible. As I look at religion as a whole I ask myself if it is no more than a means to control behavior. Makes sense to me. Put the fear of a place called hell in someones mind and most will behave correctly.

[a danl]

How could you imagine I am a Christian. While I respect Jesus as a great teacher and martyr I do not believe he is God and our Lord and Savior. I have said that may times in many posts.

I am not a Jehovah Witness and I do not belong to any Chruch and I do not follow any religion. I think no more than 8 of the ten commandments are correct. I believe that there is but one God, the creator of the heavens including the Earth. Philosophically I am probably closest to Theists. I am not a Deist because I will not rule out God acting in the present. Being a Theist really only means I believe in God.

Tim

2 thessalonians chapter 2 verses 9 thru 12."the coming of the lawless one is by the activity of satan with all power and false signs and wonders,and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing , because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. therefore God sends them a strong delusion , so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness .
'

[1hole]

[QUOTE=6bg6ga;4832973 It would seem that when we don't wish to believe what is being taught someone starts yet another church. Ever notice how every single denomination says "They are the One True Church?"[/quote]

The RCC corrupts the word "church". The "church" is the people, the body of Christ, meaning all believers of all ages and without regard to to any self-righteous denomination's leadership. The meeting house is just a place where the true church comes to study and give thanks. No denomination is "the True Church".

People don't walk away from a group they love just to hear things that tickle their ears, good people leave to escape when the present leadership is corrupting scripture (as the United Methodists are doing now). It takes a longish period of time for walk-a-way congregations to organise scattered congregations into a new denomination.

Would you expect anyone to have loyalty to what they thought was the "second or third best true church?" I only know of ONE denomination, and a few cults, that routinely and loudly crowns themselves with that label ... and you started out in it! ??

When self-willed and unaccountable denominational leaders choose to initiate man-made worship and add power-grabbing "traditions" do you not think it is a good thing to seperate? I mean, when orthodox Christians walk away and begin a new association that actually follows scripture as best they understand it, isn't that good?

Like I have mentioned before on this forum I was raised Catholic and I guess you would say lost my faith.

I can appreciate that; in your shoes, I would too. However, my faith is in God, not some sign above the door. Some church folk have disappointed me from time to time but Good has not.

Recently before we moved I was going to a Christian church. When I got into a conversation with a paster at a Baptist church I was told the Christian church wasn't correct and I was making a mistake by going there.

In detail, the pastor is correct. Ditto Baptist; Methodist; Presbyterian. etc. We all do our best, but none of us are every going to be flawless in this life so it follows that our denominations can't possibly be flawless. So, imperfect us must choose the teachings that seem most important to us and find a denomination that comes closest to what we believe and, in love, accept their flaws as they must, in love, accept ours ... or live alone on a spiritually deserted island.

I marvel at some of you with unquestioning faith. I guess I am more scientific and need more proof call it lack of faith.

Why do you think our faith is "unquestioning"; most of us have a long list of questions! But, we're smart enough to know (1) He's God, we're not, and God doesn't owe us any explanations passed scripture. Then, (2) we usually have sufficient truth of personal life experiences of His faithfulness and believe He will remain true to the end. Few of us have any meaningful questions after that. (I wonder, do you believe you're more "scientific" than the committed Christian scientist Issac Newton?)

My whole life religion has been centered around the almighty dollar. You gotta give that 10% off the top now.

You need a "new religion"; suggest you try real Christianity.

Put the fear of a place called hell in someones mind and most will behave correctly.

It's hard to get folks who don't believe in God to be much concerned about any hell. And, even if they tried, they still wouldn't behave correctly!

We all live what we believe. No one can live any other way for more than a few minutes. But truly believing/trusting in God will make us "new creatures in Christ"; not yet perfect but we simply can't be born again in Him and still live a life of sin without care.

You background seems focused on "good works" to gain God's favor (i.e, God's "grace") but, IMHO, that hopelessly puts the cart before the horse. A life of good works only counts for Christians. No amount of good works will gain anything spiritual for a religious pretender.

Faith and trust in Christ Jesus - alone - is the core of Christian teaching; not a denomination; not money; not good works; not faithfully jumping thru special religious hoops; not water baptisms by any form; not mumbling repetitious chants; not sending in 10%; not ... etc.!

If you find a new congregation with nice people but their doctrines teach anything like that you're not there yet, move on.

[djryan13]

Many parts of the Old Testament are based on stories from even more ancient cultures. The Jews just rewrote a lot of it (including the part about Adam and Eve). I just can’t believe people would believe in any part of that nonsense. There are many other ancient texts about gods and deities. Why not believe those too? Some dead guy put a particular grouping of stories in a book and you believe it without any proof?

This is just my opinion. I don’t personally care what you do with your life as long as you don’t push your crazy beliefs on me. Freedom of OR from Religion.

I should add I typically stay out of Religious discussions but OP wanted opinions and I was bored.

[exile]

Many parts of the Old Testament are based on stories from even more ancient cultures. The Jews just rewrote a lot of it (including the part about Adam and Eve). I just can’t believe people would believe in any part of that nonsense. There are many other ancient texts about gods and deities. Why not believe those too? Some dead guy put a particular grouping of stories in a book and you believe it without any proof?

This is just my opinion. I don’t personally care what you do with your life as long as you don’t push your crazy beliefs on me. Freedom of OR from Religion.

I should add I typically stay out of Religious discussions but OP wanted opinions and I was bored.

Bored? Me too. It is true that Christians live by faith, but that does not mean there is not evidence for our faith.

Take a look at "Every Prophecy of the Bible" by John Walvoord. Six thousand years of fulfilled prophecy is hard to argue with, at least in my opinion.

exile

[djryan13]

Nah.. people just look for patterns. It’s instinct. You can call it prophecy all you want but I will never believe it. I once told my best friend in high school that he should go see a doctor cause he probably has a tumor when he told me his back was hurting. He died of cancer in the spine within 8 months. True story. Did I have some mystical premonition or was it coincidence?

Bored? Me too. It is true that Christians live by faith, but that does not mean there is not evidence for our faith.

Take a look at "Every Prophecy of the Bible" by John Walvoord. Six thousand years of fulfilled prophecy is hard to argue with, at least in my opinion.

exile

[bmortell]

spent over an hour trying to think of anything productive, but the only thing i can think of is people believing things that are unfalsifiable is a logical dead end.

[snowwolfe]

spent over an hour trying to think of anything productive, but the only thing i can think of is people believing things that are unfalsifiable is a logical dead end.

Very true. Just because something is written is no basis for its truth.

[6bg6ga]

Correct me if I am wrong here but weren't there some books left out of the bible? If so then why? The bible is supposed to be written using divine intervention and if that is the case why wasn't everything included in the bible? As much as I would like to believe things were written down word for word ask yourself this.. If you were to tell a story on one side of a room filled with people what are the chances of it coming back to you 100% as you told it? Not a very good chance and this has been proven. So, maybe God did guide the writers in their various books in the bible that doesn't entirely rule out the probability of a little free hand in what was being written down.

Contradictions.. God made Adam and Eve and they had sons Cain and Able. Cain killed Abel and was cast out. Cain wondered and met other people. Where did these people come from? I am told Adam and Eve had thousands of children and this is impossible and illogical unless Adam and Eve were super human God like creatures with a fife span of thousands of years.

[bmortell]

doesn't matter what you bring up because saying god made it happen like that is always just as valid as a claim as saying he exists in the first place. its a logical checkmate where you can never move.

I think the main problem is if all something needs to be true is belief and faith then how do you differentiate between different claims, beliefs and religions. they are all equal claims if evidence and proof isn't needed to be true. then you have a mess and everyone is right and questions have many answers.
second option would be belief don't matter and only proof can confirm something true, in which case science wins hands down.
third option would be one of the beliefs is correct, but you cant tell which one is correct because none of them require proof, only belief, which basically everyone on earth believes in what there doing or else you'd kind of have to redefine terms. so if you were born in the right time in history and the right spot and right family, you might get the right one out of the infinite number of beliefs and 99% of the reason you got the right one is randomness.

[roadie]

I believe the entirety of religion began with some clan of loons in the middle of some nowhere, god forsaken place, and spread throughout the world. All religion is fear based and reward based, doesn't matter which one you pick, all the same.You follow the teachings, or you burn in some nasty environment for eternity.....that's a long time. Follow the teachings, and you get to live in some "heavenly" place, where you get to fish all day. Islam gives you a bunch of virgins to deflower.......don't ask what you do after going through them all, but there's probably an easy button for that too. No idea what the others give you, nor do I care.

Every Christian religion has it's own take on what the bible really means, and any books that didn't match what the writers of the bible thought were tossed aside, can't have that kind of heresy anywhere near the real truth of the bible. Consider too, that some authors were being pursued by people looking to run spears up their you know whats, while living in a sandbox and quite possibly under the influence of cannabis, or other flavor of the day dope. That has to have some effect on a persons mind, might even cause some wild, fanciful, stories to come forth. I'm pretty sure there are people on this thread who would very much welcome the opportunity to rewrite the bible.....just to explain what it "really" means, help out their fellow man and all.

The bible and religion has been the catalyst, the justification, of slaughtering millions upon millions of people, their crime was in not believing the same religion that their butchers did. It goes on today, the Vatican being not quite the pillar of society it would like people to think it is. Then you got Islam, knocking off anyone who doesn't conform. I have no idea what any of the other religions do, I'm sure they're probably rather drastic about it too.

All religions tend to foster an environment of fanatics, you're either in, or you're out. Religion is about control of the masses through fear, the bible is just the main weapon used to gain that control in society. Also, someone's gotta pay the electric bill for all the fancy glass churches and keep the above reproach leaders fat and happy. It was the same when the bible was put together, it'll be the same till this Earth is wiped out by some rock hitting it.....if we don't do ourselves in before that.

[a danl]

it's really sad to find so many people that are willing to die on their own merits and suffer the penalty of their unbelief. they will not out argue God in the end.

[bmortell]

Same could happen to you since your gambling on one particular religion being right out of countless many. I dont think the odds of picking the right one is any higher than all of them being a test of exclusion rather than inclusion since thats also a possibility