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Thread: Why faith is so difficult....Cain murders Able

  1. #121
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Well, I (and others) honestly wrote in response to your presumed honest questions. Now it seems you already knew what our responses would be and had rejected our testimony(s) to truth before we even answered. So, I ask, why did you even ask? Was/Is it perhaps your way of directing the discussion in ways that would provide you with a podium to announce your own "I thinks"? If so, that seems dishonest!

    We have given you answers from God according to his written word, not our own ideas. Seems you think all of your "I thinks"
    trumps what God thinks! Good luck with that but I doubt your thinking has any effect on him.

    If you think your thinking is that important I think you should create your own heavens, earth and hell and set up your own rules.






    Again, I'll say it one last time; God grants each of us an immortal spirit at conception. Our mortal bodies will die but our spirits will live eternally. At the last resurrection, just before the Great White Throne judgements, the bodies of those who rejected Jesus' offer and, by that act (John 3:18), are NOT going to heaven, will also be physically resurrected and 'live' eternally in some part of hell.

    In spite of your expressed hope of talking God into letting you live eternally with Him in his heaven it will then be too late. In other words, God himself IS NOT who will determine if you go to hell, YOU WILL, all by yourself.

    You know the truth but reject it so he will simply allow YOU to eternally live WHERE YOU CHOOSE! Choose wisely.

    It's not what you or I think about it that matters but what He says; it's his heaven and Jesus died on a cross to buy our ticket to heaven so that seems fair to me. We know you know the truth so think about it. And I mean get off the self agrandizing "I think" emotions and REALLY think!
    You told me what the bible says. I know the truth because God tells me the truth. He explained to me about the bible. I understand the bible. I give the forum a chance to go beyond the bible but some here can and some here can't. You might think I am listening to the Devil. The Devil talks to me too but I can tell the difference between God and the Devil. It is not hard.

    God did not tell me Christians are bad or wrong. God told be true Christians will have a good chance to be saved. Good Christians do good and make the world a better place. God told me that doing good and making the world a better place is what is most important, Jesus is just a messenger and the son of God just like the rest of us.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    You told me what the bible says. I know the truth because God tells me the truth. He explained to me about the bible. I understand the bible.

    I give the forum a chance to go beyond the bible but some here can and some here can't. You might think I am listening to the Devil."

    God told (m)e true Christians will have a good chance to be saved.

    God told me that doing good and making the world a better place is what is most important, Jesus is just a messenger and the son of God just like the rest of us.
    I'm stunned and suddenly very sad; your Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible, your earned "salvation" is not the salvation of the Bible. In fact, you're in direct contradiction to the Bible on both counts. But your claim is not unique.

    The history of cults is replete with people who said/believed they had direct conversations with God for how to make Christianity better. Joe Smith (Mormons), Ellen White (7th Adventists), Mary Eddy (Christian Science), Charles Russel (Jehovah Witness), Jim Jones, David Koresh all quickly come to mind. Even Paul had to deal with them.

    You do not understand God, you do not understand the Bible and you are not simply confused. Get help.
    Last edited by 1hole; 10-08-2019 at 04:27 PM.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    I'm stunned and suddenly very sad; your Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible, your earned "salvation" is not the salvation of the Bible. In fact, you're in direct contradiction to the Bible on both counts. But your claim is not unique.

    The history of cults is replete with people who said/believed they had direct conversations with God for how to make Christianity better. Joe Smith (Mormons), Ellen White (7th Adventists), Mary Eddy (Christian Science), Charles Russel (Jehovah Witness), Jim Jones, David Koresh all quickly come to mind. Even Paul had to deal with them.

    You do not understand God, you do not understand the Bible and you are not simply confused. Get help.
    You say because I deny some of the Bible I am lost. I just as easily say that because you believe all of the Bible you are lost. Maybe you are the one who should seek help. I am always seeking help.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtknowles View Post
    You say because I deny some of the Bible I am lost. I just as easily say that because you believe all of the Bible you are lost. Maybe you are the one who should seek help. I am always seeking help.

    Tim
    Timmy, I'll try to help but all I'll say here is from scripture and will make it easy for you to find. (2 Tim 3:16)

    First, you're putting words in my mouth; I never said a thing about you being lost and you know it. Not only is that dishonest, it's not sanitary. (Prov 19:9)

    You claimed that God speaks directly to you and has privately given you the straight info about how people can be saved other than by faith in Lord Jesus, BUT ..... (Eph 2:8-10)

    I have to ask, has God again spoken to you this week to give you more personal new revelations on how Jesus is/was "just another man" and how we earn God's salvation by our good deeds? (Acts 4:7-12)

    I'll sadly admit that you have a lot of company with your religious legalism; cult founders all say, like you, that "God's salvation" is really by good works, not just His Bible's way. (Gal 2:16)

    I strongly disagree with your doctrines but who am I; I only read His Bible and accept what He says in it. I must do that because (unlike what you claim) He never speaks privately with me. (2 Pet 1:21-23)


    * NOTE: You don't need a Bible to look up the cited verses, just type them in your search line and push ENTER.
    Last edited by 1hole; 10-12-2019 at 09:09 PM.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    At this point in time, there are likely less than 100 people on earth and yet Cain proceeds to murder his brother.
    I wonder just how arrogant Cain must have been. Much more arrogant than the worst atheists we have today. He saw and spoke to God and rejected God's way.
    What year(s) are you referring to? Why do you refer to atheists as arrogant? I rarely ever hear an atheist trying to spread the word they do not believe in God unless they are provoked into answering what their beliefs are.
    Last edited by AK Caster; 10-12-2019 at 04:52 PM.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post

    The history of cults is replete with people who said/believed they had direct conversations with God for how to make Christianity better. Joe Smith (Mormons), Ellen White (7th Adventists), Mary Eddy (Christian Science), Charles Russel (Jehovah Witness).
    I wonder why the LDS, 7th Adventists, Christian Scientists), Jehovah Witness don't call you on your religious discrimination but maybe they are used to people like you.
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  7. #127
    Boolit Mold mpescatori's Avatar
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    This thread started over Cain and Abel, a story which I find interesting on a number of accounts:
    - Cain was the first born, and tilled the fields (farmer)
    - Abel was the second born, and was a sheperd; he raised sheep (not cattle) and we all know of the struggle of sheperds in the West against cattle ranchers; this is because "where sheep pass, grass grows no more" because sheep pull the grass out to the roots.
    Put these two together, and you see the symbolic competition between farmers and sheperds.

    Furthermore, God instructed how he wanted his sacrifice: the animal's liver, the kidneys, and the fat thereof; he was fond of their smell and their smoke on the fire.
    On the other hand God couldn't care less for grain or fruits.
    So for God to rebuke Cain after not showing gratitude is difficult to understand; Cain is the first born, the watcher of the Lands, the tiller of the ground as was his father Adam, why should he be mortified?
    Cain was behaving properly, but his sacrifice, the toil of his work was refused…?
    Think about it.

  8. #128
    Boolit Mold mpescatori's Avatar
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    But then, I may have insight on this:


    The Untold Story of Cain and Abel
    By Jeff A. Benner
    https://www.ancient-hebrew.org/studi...n-and-abel.htm

    We have all heard the story of Cain and Abel. Two brothers bring their sacrifices to God; Abel's sacrifice is accepted, but Cain's sacrifice is not. Out of jealousy, Cain take's his brother out into the field and kills him. Because of Cain's sin, he is branded with a mark and sent away. However, if we carefully study the text, we find that there is much, much more, to this story.

    Their Names
    Let's begin with their names. The names Cain and Abel come from the Greek Septuagint, a 2,000 year old Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, where their names are written as "Kain" and "Abel." These names are the Greek transliterations of the Hebrew. In Hebrew, Cain is קין (qayin) and Abel is הבל (havel).
    The word קין (qayin, from the root QN) means to acquire or possess something which is why Eve (chavah in Hebrew) said "I have gotten/acquired (qanah, also from the root QN) a man" (Gen 4:1). The word הבל (havel) means to be empty, often translated as vain or vanity in the sense of being empty of substance.
    The Hebrew word for "name" is shem and literally means breath or character. In Hebrew thought, ones name is reflective of one's character and the Hebraic meanings of the names of "Cain and Abel" are windows into their characters. Cain is a possessor, one who has substance while Abel is empty of substance.
    This may seem odd to us, because we have always assumed that Abel was the good guy and Cain the bad, but this is an oversimplification of the facts, as according to their names, a reflection of their character, Cain is what we would call "a man of character," but Abel is "vain."

    Their Births
    It is a well-known fact that Jacob and Esau were twins, but what is not commonly known is that Cain and Abel were also twins. In the normal Hebraic accounting of multiple births the conception then birth of each child is mentioned such as we can see in Genesis 29:32-33 where it states that Leah conceived and bore a son, and then she conceived again and bore a son. Note that there are two conceptions and two births. But notice how it is worded in Genesis 4:1-2.
    Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain; And again, she bore his brother Abel. (RSV)
    Notice that there is only one conception, but two births. The Hebrew word for "again" is asaph, meaning to add something, in this case the birthing of Abel was added to the birthing of Cain. Cain and Abel were twins.

    Their professions
    According to the Biblical text, Abel was a shepherd. The KJV uses the word "keeper," but the Hebrew word ro'eh means shepherd. Cain is a "tiller of the ground." The Hebrew word translated as "tiller" is o'ved, which literally means a "servant." The word o'ved, is the participle form of the verb avad and the verb avad is found in Genesis 3:23 where it states that when Adam was expelled from the garden he was sent to "till" (avad) the ground. Therefore, Cain, who is the older of the twins, takes on the profession of his father, a very common occurrence in the Hebrew culture. I should note that while Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel are not Hebrews by definition, they are the forefathers of the Hebrew people.

    Their sacrifices
    When the two boys brought their sacrifices to God, Cain, the farmer, brought fruit from the ground he worked and Abel, the shepherd, brought sheep from his flock. We are then told that God had respect for Abel's sacrifice, but not for Cain's, but we are not told why Cain's sacrifice was not respected.
    Something of interest that can be gleaned from this story is that we often assume the first commands by God were given to Moses at Mt. Sinai, but this is evidently not the case, God gave his commands, or at least some of them, to Adam and Eve and their children and it is apparent from the narrative that Abel obeyed those commands, but Cain did not.
    Because God did not respect Cain's sacrifice Cain was angry and sad. Then God gives him some instructions. The first of these is; " If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?" God is telling him that he can overcome this; all he has to do in the future is bring the correct sacrifice, and all will be well. Then God says, " and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door." In other words, if you continue to bring me the wrong sacrifices, you will sin. Lastly God says, " And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him." It is assumed by most that the "his" and "him" in this verse is "sin," however, this is impossible.
    It is important to understand that in Hebrew all nouns are either masculine or feminine. For instance, the earth is feminine, but the sky (heaven) is masculine and the word for fish is feminine, but the word for bird is masculine. The Hebrew word for sin is hhatah, which is a feminine noun. If the "his" and "him," which by the way are the correct gender for the pronouns in the Hebrew text, were referring to "sin," then the correct pronouns would have been "hers" and "her." We can then conclude that the "his" and "him" are referring to something or someone other than sin.

    Their Relationship
    Let's take a closer look at that the last part of what God told Cain. Here is a literal rendering of this passage from the Hebrew; "and toward you is his desire but you will rule over him." Now, let's go back to the previous chapter (Genesis 3:16) where God is speaking to Eve about her relationship with Adam; "and toward your husband is your desire, but he will rule over you." Did you notice that these two passages, aside from the gender of the pronouns and to whom the passages are referring too, are identical?
    In the passage about Adam and Eve, Eve is to follow her husband and her husband is to rule over her. In the passage about Cain and Abel, "he" is to follow Cain and Cain is to rule over "him." So who is the "he" and "him?" It has to be Abel. Remember that Cain was born first and is therefore, according to Hebrew tradition, the leader. But apparently, Abel is attempting to take over the leadership, possibly because he felt superior to Cain as his sacrifice was accepted by God. Also, don't forget that Cain's character was one of substance and Abel's was one of vanity.

    The Murder
    The King James Version translates Genesis 4:8 as follows.
    And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
    This is a pretty straight-forward passage, but it has been altered in order for it to make sense. It is not uncommon for the translators to "fix" the text so that it can be understood by the reader easily. In my opinion they do a disservice to the reader by hiding these problems. I am of the opinion that the translator should remain true to the Hebrew text and then footnote their opinions. The very first part of that verse actually reads, from the Hebrew, "And Cain said to his brother."
    What did Cain say to his brother? We don't know, that is missing from the text. The King James translators fixed this by changing the word from "said" to "talked." This may sound trivial, but you must understand that every time the Hebrew uses vai'yomer (and said) the conversation follows, but not here. At some point when the scroll was being copied, a copier accidently skipped over what was said by Cain.

    Here is this verse from Young's Literal Translation.
    And Cain saith unto Abel his brother, {'Let us go into the field;'} and it cometh to pass in their being in the field, that Cain riseth up against Abel his brother, and slayeth him.
    Young's remains true to the Hebrew, but adds, "Let us go into the field." Where did Young's get this?
    From the Greek Septuagint, which reads as follows.
    And Cain said to Abel his brother, Let us go out into the plain; and it came to pass that when they were in the plain Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
    Where did the Septuagint get the "Let us go out into the plain?" We don't know. Either they were translating from a Hebrew scroll that includes the conversation, or they "fixed" the text by adding the sentence in order for the passage to make sense.

    The reason that I bring up this problem in the text is so that you will recognize that there is a problem in the text and we do not know with certainty all of the facts in this murder. But in any case, Cain does murder his brother and he is punished for it, which by the way, is more evidence that God gave his commands to Adam and Eve, long before he gave them to Moses, here specifically the commandment, "you shall not murder" (Exodus 20:13).

    The punishment
    The first punishment for Cain is that he is will no longer be able to work the ground.
    And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. When you till the ground, it shall no longer yield to you its strength; (RSV, Genesis 4:11-12a)

    The second punishment is banishment.
    you shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth. (RSV, Genesis 4:12b)

    Cain is distressed by this punishment and says to God, according to the translations;
    My punishment is greater than I can bear (RSV, Genesis 4:13).
    This implies that there is no remorse in Cain and he is more worried about his punishment than the evil act he did to his brother.
    However, the Hebrew word translated as punishment is avon, which means "iniquity" or "guilt."
    With this understanding, he is actually saying, "My guilt is greater than I can bear."
    With this translation we see great remorse. Cain then continues to say,
    Behold, thou hast driven me this day away from the ground; and from thy face I shall be hidden; and I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will slay me. (RSV, Genesis 4:14)

    Grace and Mercy
    It is often taught that the Old Testament taught Law and the NT taught Grace. However we find throughout the Old Testament instances where God shows Grace. The story of Noah, the exodus of the Israelites and many others are stories of grace and this story is no different as God grants mercy, grace and hope to Cain.
    Then the LORD said to him, "Not so! If any one slays Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold." And the LORD put a mark on Cain, lest any who came upon him should kill him. (RSV, Genesis 4:15)

    God evidently believed that Cain's murder did not deserve death, either by his or anyone else's hand and this may be a sign that there is more to this murder story than we are told. Don't forget that the conversation between Cain and Abel is not known for sure and it is also possible that there are elements of this story that have not been passed down to us.
    What is the mark that God placed on Cain? We of course cannot know with any certainty, but there are some clues. The Hebrew word translated as "mark" is the word 'ot, which is used in the Biblical text for a "sign." This word is also used in non-Biblical texts for a "letter," as in a letter of the alphabet.

    And the LORD said to him, "Go through the city, through Jerusalem, and put a mark upon the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations that are committed in it." (RSV, Ezekiel 9:4)

    In the above passage, the Hebrew word for the "mark" is tav, which is last letter of the Hebrew alphabet. The above passage would be better translated as, "and put a 'tav' upon the foreheads." In the Ancient Hebrew alphabet, the letter tav was written as a picture of two crossed sticks, a cross if you will, and is a sign of a covenant.
    It is possible that the "mark" God placed on Cain was the letter tav and may also be a sign that God was in covenant relationship with Cain.

    Conclusion
    As I mentioned at the beginning of this article, if we carefully examine the text more closely we will find that there is much more to the story of Cain and Abel then most of us have been taught. I don't have all of the answers; in fact, as I study the Biblical text carefully, I will usually wind up with more questions than I do answers. But this is what Bible study is all about. It is not about getting all the answers, it is about the search. It is not about the destination, it is about the journey.

  9. #129
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    [QUOTE=mpescatori;
    We have all heard the story of Cain and Abel. Two brothers bring their sacrifices to God; Abel's sacrifice is accepted, but Cain's sacrifice is not. Out of jealousy, Cain take's his brother out into the field and kills him. Because of Cain's sin, he is branded with a mark and sent away. However, if we carefully study the text, we find that there is much, much more, to this story. [/QUOTE]

    So, Adam and Eve had two children. They were Cain and Abel.

    Genesis 4:16 - So Cain went out from the Lord’s presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.

    Genesis 4:17 - Cain made love to his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch.

    If the only people around at that time were Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel, where did the people of Nod come from?
    The Bible does not address this and just adds more confusion to the Truth Seeker reading the Bible.

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